corvus

At the risk of starting up another heated discussion about my dogs and myself, I honestly think that both Kivi and Penny have relaxed around dogs that do odd things through exposure at the dog park. Kivi has learnt that sometimes dogs race up and often a game follows. Penny has learnt that dogs that race up aren't always about to throw themselves at her and try to rip her to pieces, which had been her experience in life until dog parks. People are alway complaining about dogs that run up to their dogs... you could always try to habituate your dog to dogs that race up. It worked for Kivi, and even Penny after her very unpleasant experiences with charging dogs. No doubt it won't work for every dog, but it seems preferable to me than simply ranting about "rude" dog behaviour and your inability to avoid it. For the record, Penny doesn't like dogs racing up to her even when they are friendly. But she's not terrified of it because she knows they'll leave her alone if she's close to me. It helps that Kivi likes to go out to meet them nowadays, so they don't usually pay much attention to Penny.

I can't understand how you would not protect your dog? Really. I can't understand it. Just stand back and let a aggressive dog approach my dog? Never! I'm sure that Rover would be able to diffuse the situation as you said Corvus, but haven't you ever met a dog that is Unstable? It doesn't matter how many clear signals of submission or avoidance your dog is showing. The other dog will still try and attack, no matter what. It seems that no matter how many times I say this it doesn't sink in. Yes, we have met unstable dogs. Penny can pick them sooner than I can and stays away. If she cannot stay away, I prepare for battle. This has happened to us on my driveway multiple times and on the streets multiple times. It has never happened in a dog park or on the beach. Personally, I think the risks of meeting an aggressive dog are higher on the streets than in off leash dog areas, but maybe I'm just lucky and every one of the dog parks and beaches I have been to have been good ones. I watch and learn from Penny. If she's not making eye contact with a dog I am on high alert. If someone can tell me how any training method or philosophy can prevent this from happening, then be my guest. As far as I can make out, you can meet these dogs anywhere anytime and when you do the best you can do is stay calm and jerk your dog out of the path of the one charging at the last minute, then hope to hell you can either get out of their trigger zone before they recover and come at you again or that someone will be around to help you. We had a dog living next door to us that would charge at Penny every time we walked up our driveway. His owner would try to stop him with a tennis racket. He was too fast. You could fend him off by blocking him because Penny was small, but you hoped to god his owner was on the run to get him because you can't block a dog hellbent on getting at your dog indefinitely and he was pretty vicious. When he finally did bite someone a fence went up the next day. My mother and I reflected that we should have let him bite one of us months ago.

I guess that either you don't read half my posts or really don't understand what I say. This has already happened and more than once. Only it wasn't the dog park it was our driveway and on the streets. What can you do when a dog charges you and tries to grab your dog and shake it? As far as I can work out, stay cool, watch it come, and jerk your dog out of its path at the last minute. Then hope to hell you can either get out of its way before it recovers for another round or its owner is there and can do something. These things happen with no provocation. I don't know what the trainers on this forum have to say that can possibly stop it. K9 says the neutralised dog wouldn't be there in the first place. This happened ON MY DRIVEWAY. It happened out of the blue when walking down the street. At least if we are in the dog park there's a good chance the owner will be there and might be able to do something. And I'll say it one more time. My dog does not provoke dogs that might attack her. She has never started a fight by air snapping and she's been doing it for many, many years. I am glad that she is more relaxed these days and no longer snaps nearly as much, but she has still never made a mistake. Kavik, you asked what happens when snapping doesn't buy her space. It's a hard question because I can't remember it ever really happening. Sometimes at the dog park she insists on standing in the middle of a boisterous game and growling when inevitably she gets buffeted. She has a Ruff Wear web harness that is awfully useful for lifting her out of the way and I plonk her between my feet where she stays and grumbles about youngsters to herself. If it did happen I'm not about to stand by and watch. Kivi sometimes goes back for more when he's been snapped at because he's still young and enthusiastic. I call him away. I'm not sure how this came to be about dog parks or comparisons with wild animals. Both things are kind of beside the point. I'm intrigued that K9 has disagreed with me about trust and everyone else has more or less said they think any kind of fear discourages trust. Is that right? Are people disagreeing with K9?? I agree, anita. My point is, when you know it's possible you can guard against it. I don't think Kivi is nearly as likely to lose trust in people as Penny has been, but I know what I'm looking for, now.

You might notice that I don't have the word "zoologist" under my avatar anymore. I took it down after the last discussion in here. It's "defuse". Sorry. I haven't back-pedalled. I have answered a whole lot of "well, what if you had a dog like this..." scenarios. I'm not about to sit down and describe how I would handle every different kind of dog I could possibly find myself responsible for. I kinda thought it was obvious I wouldn't do the same thing for every kind of dog, but apparently not. This thread is about my view of fear and how it affects trust. I had a vague hope it might help people see that I would handle different dogs differently because I don't want to see them learning things through fear. I realise now I expect people to read my mind sometimes. The thing I love about OC is that it is applicable to all species. But, like you say, obviously the rewards will differ, and not just between species but also between individuals. I don't even use the same rewards for Penny and Kivi and they are similar dogs. My problem is that I think this is all very obvious so skip over it. I guess that this makes people think I don't know about it. Whenever I start these threads, poodlefan, you end up pretty much stating all the things I've skipped over for me. I profoundly believe that force is a great big no-no. It started from the hare as well. You can't force a hare to do much and if you do manage it he won't even look at me for several days afterwards. It really gets you thinking outside the square about ways you can do things without force. I got into the realms of environmental manipulation, which is something you can't really apply to dogs and don't really need to. Thank goodness for that. Doing anything with a hare means several days of thinking about it and several more days of getting up the courage and usually several hours or days trying to carry it out with the minimum amount of stress. Yep, I am SO glad dogs and hares are pretty different. And I agree with you. This is all true. Butbutbut.... There are aspects of taming that are really very much like training. You are teaching them what is scary and what is not. Even when you try to teach them nothing is scary you end up teaching them some things are. The difference is what you can expect in terms of obedience. My hare does a cute trick where he stands on his hind legs on signal. My dog does a cute trick where he gives me his paw. My dog is always happy to give me his paw. It's very rewarding to him and there's no reason for him to not give me his paw. My hare doing what I suggest is always going to be a hit and miss affair because there are so many reasons not to come out and stand in front of me in the first place. IMO, you must accept the limits to your animals' capabilities. I could expect things of my domestic rabbit that I never could of my hare. I could expect things of my dogs I never could of my rabbit. I can expect things of Kivi that I would not expect of Penny. This all goes without saying. There was a fellow on tv a while back that trained cats to perform. He said in order to succeed the cats must NEVER be frightened while they are performing. I wish that people had that attitude about every animal. Why is it okay to frighten an animal that will get over it and still perform for you? Yes, and you have gone through and listed all the differences very nicely. The similarities are in two places: 1. A wild animal and a domestic animal will both try to increase the good things and decrease the bad things. As you say, these can be wildly different between species. My point is, the bare bones of it are the same. 2. A wild animal and a domestic animal will behave the same way when very frightened. Like Zero. From Shell's description, she had a big floofy hare with sharp teeth in her house for a while. Now here's where I see an important difference: Fear is common to all animals. The differences are, I used to think, what you can get away with before they become afraid. My revelation with Penny was, sometimes the difference is the dog will not clearly tell you when you are frightening them. They just quietly don't trust you as much. It's easy to tell with a hare or even a cat because they won't stand for it. Many dogs do stand for it, but that doesn't mean they weren't affected. So better, I think, to try valiantly not to frighten them at all. But how do you do that if there's a possibility they don't tell you when they are afraid? Why not use what you have learnt from animals that do tell you loud and clear? Just to be safe?

Yes I did. And yes we have come across a dog who will retaliate. Surprise surprise, she sure as hell didn't stare at it and snap. We've come across several, in fact. She didn't stare or snap at any of them. It's hard to explain how it's all happened because it's happened over most of her lifetime and she's an old dog, now. In general, she was attacked by some dogs that weren't interested in her submission. These dogs lived in our neighbourhood and we met them on the streets. One of them in particular lived next door and attacked Penny on the driveway. He tried it every single time we walked past. No way to avoid it as I had to go past him to get off the property. He was bloody fast and hellbent on taking her throat out. We managed to fend him off until he bit my mother and a fence went up. Big surprise, Penny got a bit fearful of large dogs. This is where I could have helped her by teaching her I would protect her. I didn't know about that and I didn't. She learnt that air snapping at a dog's face bought her space. She never once provoked a retaliation. Once she had this tool she calmed down and slowly got over her fear. She will never be the same, but she has recovered admirably from a series of terrible experiences with other dogs. Even though she is a grumpy old girl, now, she politely greets other dogs and reserves the snaps for boisterous youngsters. I know this and keep her close when boisterous youngsters are about. In her old age, it's a kind thing to do for her. The reason why I like socialisation is because I think it increased her resilience to these experiences. She doesn't make mistakes with strange dogs. She never has. Even when she was scared of them she never made a mistake. And it's not because we didn't meet dogs that would retaliate. She just knew they would and so didn't provoke them. When I say she has never made a mistake I mean it. Never in her 13 years. It's really important because as long as I know she doesn't make mistakes the only dogs I have to fear are the ones that don't need an excuse to attack. I would like it if Kivi became this good. I think he will, but I'm not about to test it. He has a lot of proving to do before I will, and if I'm lucky most of it will happen on leash where he will be safe. But the basis of my stance on socialisation is that now I know it's possible for a dog to be so good at reading other dogs that she never makes a mistake. She might be exceptional and Kivi might never be that good, but why wouldn't I give him the opportunity? I did ask the experts. I am asking the experts. I ask by inviting them to convince me I'm wrong.

Whoa there Nelly, please tell me you are joking. Anecdotes are useful to generate ideas for testable hypotheses, but never can be used as evidence to support an argument. You can't seriously expect other scientists to take anecdotes seriously, they are the reason we have strictly controlled experiments, because anecdotes are useless. I am fanatical about methods, and right now my brain is hurting. Glad I didn't get my degree at your uni. :shakehead: Yes, I know. I'm saying I based my experiments on anecdotal evidence in order to test it. It was absolutely correct. Hurrah! I still think it's a leap. Just because it's accepted doesn't make it true. I'm pretty confident it isn't universally accepted. My supervisor developed a theory on cooperative birds that became very widely accepted and was taught in universities all over the world. Only then he realised it didn't entirely make sense and thought about it some more until he had something that did make sense. Now that one is widely accepted, but it takes a while for it to filter down. A lot of pack theory for dogs is based on studies of captive wolves. It has since become apparent that what was learnt there rarely applies in the wild. But that's something we've all been over before. What is your proof that dogs as a species need humans to protect them? I'm genuninely curious because I don't know. Do they need us to solve problems, either? There are a hell of a lot of dogs out there that don't have humans. Do you even have a dog? I'm curious because you've never mentioned them.

I've read that paper, jdavis. I think your interpretation is a little bit of a leap. In my opinion, it shows that dogs have evolved alongside humans to the degree that they naturally look to humans to solve their problems. That is not the same thing as looking to humans for protection. Case in point, my dog looks to me if she doesn't know what to do about a dog, but doesn't bother if she does regardless of the level of threat involved. Fair enough, my dog ain't a particularly good example, but Kivi does the same thing and I did actually make an effort with him to be his protector. My mother's dogs have all been the same (I think she's had 7 in my lifetime). If they know what to do they do it. If they don't know they go find a person to tell them. She has one dog now that is not nearly as independent in nature as most of her other dogs have been, and she looks to people a whole lot more than the others do. She is pretty shy, so she looks to my mother often when strange people or dogs approach her. Different to my dogs, and my mother's other dogs that are very confident when other dogs approach. My sister has a dog that is even more shy. That dog needs a lot more direction and reassurance from people than mine do. She gets nervous every time a strange dog comes near her and is not very good at reading the situation like my gorgeous Penny girl. She is begging for someone to tell her what she should do. Put a hand on her and tell her it's okay and she is ever so much happier. Incidentally, my hare looks to me to solve his problems, too. He's a better problem-solver than any of my domestic pets even though he's nowhere near as smart as my dogs, because he's wild. I think that's pretty neat, but I'm not stupid enough to confuse what he can learn with what dogs do naturally. I have learnt that he does a lot of things that domestic animals would never do. It's been a real adventure in discovery comparing wild animals with domestic animals. Having a domestic rabbit as well has been good fun. Life would be pretty boring if the whole world expected me to keep a lid on the thoughts this situation has provoked simply because it's not a proper experiment. Ever heard of anecdotal evidence? I based a thesis on it. Observations are always interesting, and it's my nature to cobble them together to form theories. I run with my theories until they are blown out of the water. Sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't. It doesn't look like it, but I'm a critical thinker. I'd far rather have my own theories blown out of the water than run around with my fingers in my ears and my eyes shut crowing "I'm right!" So go ahead, blow my theories out of the water. If it's a good argument you will have achieved what dozens before you tried to do but failed. I'm yet to see you put forth an argument beyond "You know nothing; these unproven theories are fact". It's a great shame. I love debates with other scientists. Eh, if I were actually doing a study I wouldn't make the broad, sweeping statements I do, but as I'm not, I don't see any problem with throwing broad, sweeping statements out there for thought. None of my zoologist friends mind when I do, but they all know me and know the way I think. If I start getting a little too tenuous with my links they pull me up. Broad sweeping statements are the basis for good debate. If you like, pick an aspect and we'll discuss that. Is there a particular reason why you think frightening dogs doesn't diminish their trust in you? This thread has been quite exciting for me. It adds evidence to support the similarities and differences I see between wild animals and dogs. I do see differences, by the way. I love the differences as much as the similarities. I only emphasise the similarities because I get tired of people treating dogs as if they are some kind of special animal that's not really an animal.

Mm, good question. I don't insist. It's hard to explain. I watch them. If they don't look comfortable, I come over. If it doesn't improve, I step in. But usually they are tense and then they relax within seconds once they have made their greetings. If they don't look comfortable before the dog has even got to them I stand in front of them. They can walk around me if they want or stay put. If they want to stay behind me I'd block the dog coming on. But that's all pretty hypothetical. It doesn't happen much. 98% of the time the tension vanishes within seconds. The other 2% of the time Penny is telling me she wants no part of it and I'm agreeing with her and we never get as far as contact. Yeah! And that is SO how I built trust with the hare. When I said good things I was encompassing that into it. There are so many things an animal can find good that I didn't list them. With wild animals, or scared animals, predictability pretty much equals safety and it's way higher on the list of good things than treats or pats or other things like that. Glad you brought that up. Yeah, nothing. One of the things I learnt to do with Kit was get into habits of my own so every time I did anything around him I turned it into a routine thing. That's where the trust came from. One of my biggest failings with Penny was being unpredictable. The leash corrections were part of that. I wasn't taught how to do it properly and it was unpredictable to her. But like I've said several times, I wouldn't raise a fearful dog the same way I raised Kivi and I wouldn't raise any dog the way I raised Penny. I'll repeat the story about a pup my mum had. He found puppy preschool terrifying and they made him get into it and play, which made him more afraid of it. Things just went downhill from there and he ended up biting people. He was fine with those he knew, but not good with strangers BECAUSE of what was recommended about socialisation. It wasn't right for him. I would know another puppy like that pretty early. I would be outrageously cautious with it. It was heartbreaking seeing what happened to this other pup. Poor boy was always scared. I agree. I just consider that "nice stuff". I'd love to spend more time with someone who deals with canine behaviour for a living, but I don't think I could handle the politics. Zoologists are allowed to draw comparisons between wildly different animals whenever they like and don't make people cross in the process. I just keep doing it!

Well, that's what Penny was asking herself, no doubt. With Kivi, he doesn't seem to be looking for it or needing it. He's a lot more laid back then Penny and he thinks rolling on his back solves all problems. It usually does, to be honest. I know what you mean! Penny is a bit different to Zero. She figured out a way to handle her problems with other dogs in a pretty benign way. She mostly just glares at them these days and they stay away. If they come too close and she thinks it'll work she snaps at them. It's not exactly ideal, but she's confident that she can handle it and knows exactly how so it's not particularly stressful for her anymore. What I'm saying is I missed my opportunity for that approach and so Penny found another solution. It works and now if I try to get in her way she looks uncomfortable. She'd rather know where the dog is and have a clear view of what it's doing. Not so good now she's going blind, but she is much less bothered these days than she was before. Yep, that's what Kit does, minus the growling, obviously (although he does grunt sometimes). In the other thread I was talking about behaviour loops escalating. That's exactly the kind of thing I was talking about! It's like dominoes. The more things set him off the more things are added to his list of things to be scared of. And if you don't do something fast you're looking at months of patiently desensitising. You have to identify the triggers and change the routine surrounding them. Even then it's taken months before with Kit if he had a good scare. He's still antsy about strangers crouching near him years after someone bent down to pat him. What I LOVE about dogs is that usually they don't do silly things like that, so it really is heartbreaking if they do. But low level fear is a natural way for animals to learn. I can't believe I started this topic about how I think fear is so awful and now I'm apparently saying that low level fear is good. It's not good, it's just something that well-adjusted animals should be able to cope with because it's a natural occurrence. Even Kit can handle a fair bit of low-level fear before he forms an association. Good thing, because he would experience low-level fear several times a day. I got good at reading him so I wouldn't push him too far. In a way it's harder to learn that with dogs because they don't show it as clearly as a hare does, but then, they have great body language. You just have to remember to look.

It doesn't? It came up because I said I didn't want my dogs to be frightened because I think it diminishes trust. I didn't want to go into it on that thread because it would have been off topic and as you can see it's a bit of a can of worms all on its own. I've suddenly realised I've been pretty vague and unclear lately. And my arguments are seriously crap and don't seem to apply to anything. And here I was feeling frustrated because I didn't feel I was getting my point across. Because apparently I am incoherent this week and my brain is made of fuzz!! Can I blame night work? It's all I've got. Anyway, what I said now makes no sense to me. I guess I was trying to convince people that I didn't want my dogs to be frightened and that's why I didn't feel like I was taking risks in letting my dogs go to dog parks and learn to talk to dogs. Which also isn't exactly a direct argument. It's hard to sum it all up in one sentence, which is what I was trying to do in the other thread. So let's try point form. I believe to incite fear in my dogs is to diminish their trust in me. It leads on that I am therefore very wary of fear in general, not just what I might create - thus, avoid fear of other dogs. I am okay with a little tiny bit of fear in some circumstances as it does teach well - thus, allow dogs to be snapped at/growled at (as if I could avoid it with cranky-pants Penny around). I just don't want to be the source of that fear (see first point). Does that make ANY sense? Otherwise I may have to have a sleep and try again tomorrow.

K9: lol I am not pissed off, lol you can still type.... Maybe I am just harder to please than a wild Hare? Was that a challenge?? That bloody hare.... Probably not speaking to me because I've been out all week. Think you can compete with the 3 day cold shoulder? Not even dried strawberries will bring him out. I'm guessing dried strawberries don't do it for you, either...? Shell, something tells me you don't think fear did Zero any favours... For what it's worth, I think your relationship with Zero is amazing. You'll hate me, but I see comparisons with my hare. It's not really so different. You echo many of my own thoughts. Even Zero's reactions aren't dissimilar to Kit's. Raise a hand and Kit will often take off, too. Only that's his natural state.

Which is fine. If I understand what you've done with Zero correctly, I imagine that he looks to you because he's been taught that it solves his problems. Penny looks to me if she has a problem, too. But if she knows what to do she does it. When she sees a dog behaving aggressively she knows what to do. There is no problem. Of all the ways I've let her down that is the least of it. I think she would have benefitted from your approach at one time, but we're past that now. She is happier if she sorts it out because she knows how to. I started this way with Kivi, but soon gave up. It just didn't seem necessary for him. He is outgoing and at the time we were still bonding. He trusts me more now than he did back then despite letting him sort out his problems a lot of the time. Anyway, I discovered soon after I gave up on it that he absolutely needs me sometimes and is quite capable of finding me when he does. I did actually point out that this was all based on one particular dog, guys. This is what I learnt from Penny. It does not necessarily apply to any other dog in the world, but it's not a mistake I intend to make again. So can your silly "you need more experience" remarks. This is not about all dogs! It's about one dog. One lesson. This is also not about corrective training. What's a withdrawal for Penny is not necessarily a withdrawal for every other dog in the world.

I don't want them to be scared of ME. Last time I checked I wasn't a strange dog. Seems you guys missed the bit where I said if you do something really good you make a big deposit. If you tell them they are a good dog it might be a small deposit, but if you toss them a piece of roast chicken it might be a big deposit. Shouting at a dog when they're on the table eating chicken doesn't quite match the chicken, so overall it's a positive experience despite shouting. Fear is always a slightly tricky balancing act. It is a very powerful teacher. A little fear can make a lesson well learnt, but it can easily go wrong. You could use too much and the dog makes a broader association than you were looking for, or they could make the wrong association all together. Temple Grandin in working with antelopes discovered that if an antelope gets scared in the presence of a particular person they may never want to go near that person again. Before you say antelopes aren't dogs, we KNOW these associations can sometimes happen with dogs, which is why you all think I take huge risks in letting my dogs talk to other dogs I don't know. In day to day life it's difficult to prevent an animal from ever feeling fear and I wouldn't want to do it. There are things they should learn and fear is a natural teacher. I just don't want it to come from me. For example, I'm quite happy for Kivi to learn that cats can be scary, but I don't want him to learn that they are terrifying. So I pick a cat for him to meet that will be reasonably comfortable with him but will whack him on the nose if he gets too boisterous. I pointedly did not pick the cat my mother has who hides and smacks dogs on the rear when they pass. At least, not until he'd met the cat that likes dogs and the cat that bops them on the nose if they get too boisterous. He learnt in nice easy steps that cats can be friendly, sometimes bop you, or scary. His overall impression of cats at the moment is that they are worth checking out in case they are friendly, but checking out with caution. I actually did more or less the same thing with dogs. He learnt in steps, and it happened naturally most of the time as he grew up with his puppy licence and all. Dogs have frightened him. I am okay with that. The important thing is how much they frightened him. Stupid to toss him in at the deep end and get really scared. He learnt in stages with other puppies, dogs I knew would be nice to him, dogs I knew would gently tell him off if he got too boisterous... We worked up to the dog park. And I'd learnt my lesson from Penny. If he said he was frightened I comforted him or took him away until he felt better. Oh my, K9. Sounds like I piss you off. Must be doing something right, then. :laugh:

Rather than take the Too Much Socialisation thread off topic even more, I have started a new thread. K9 questioned my belief that if you frighten a dog their trust in you diminishes. So this is why I believe this. It is based on just one dog so I am not holding it up as fact or something that applies to all dogs. It's just a lesson I learnt that I share because it was a revelation for me at the time. Anyway, Temple Grandin says the worst thing you can do to an animal is make them feel afraid. It is one of the most profoundly sensible things I have ever heard, in retrospect. I tried to avoid this wherever possible when I was raising my hare for obvious reasons and to cut a long story short, I learnt a lot about trust. The more good experiences I piled on my hare the more resilient he was to bad experiences. He would recover quicker, regain his confidence quicker, take less time before he was happy to talk to me again. I now think of animals as a piggy bank of trust. When you do something they like you make a deposit. When you do something that frightens them or makes them nervous you make withdrawals. When you do really good things for them you are making big deposits. So when you have to make a little withdrawal if your balance is high it doesn't make a big impact on your relationship with them. You are still in the black, I guess. With the hare it is sometimes difficult to stay in the black, but with dogs, it's so easy. Just looking at them sideways can be a deposit in the bank! The problem with my dog is that I made some big withdrawals early on. I used leash corrections on her and she didn't like it. I ignored her as I didn't know what she was telling me. Those were big withdrawals for her and it was at a time when the balance in the piggy bank was still small as we hadn't been together for long. We carried on for years and every time I got cross with her when she didn't understand why I made another withdrawal. I made withdrawals when I was unpredictable, when she was trying to tell me she was frightened and I ignored her, whenever I punished her, and those are just the ones I can identify in retrospect. I didn't know that any of this had diminished my trust balance with her until I realised how much my hare trusts me. It was not a nice thing to realise. Anyway, I have made up a lot of lost ground with Penny in the last 5 or 6 years since I started working with wild animals and absently applied all the rules with them to Pen. When I realised how I had let Penny come to be not entirely trusting of me, I thought I would never be able to fix my mistakes. I still think that, but I think I have fixed it more than I ever thought I would. It doesn't help that I make habitual withdrawals with Penny. When she annoys me I get cross with her. She's too sensitive to do that to, but I forget because I've been doing it for 13 years. So when I say that frightening dogs diminishes their trust in you, I'm not usually talking about anything particularly easy to detect. I'm talking about my desire to keep my balance in the piggy bank as high as I can. Just in case. When I got Kivi I was determined to keep those big withdrawals to a minimum. I don't ever want to see him worried that I'm going to do something bad to him. I don't want to see him miserable because I'm cross and might yell at him. I don't want him to EVER be afraid of me even the teensiest little bit. He is not as sensitive as Penny and it's easier to make deposits with him. The withdrawals aren't as big, either. But the difference between the two of them is sometimes a little disturbing. To Kivi, people are never unpleasant. One time my little brother gave him a tap on the nose when he bit him too hard during play. The look of shock on his face was so telling. He didn't know that could happen to him. But people doing bad things is not something out of the realms of possibility for Penny. She's never been physically punished, but I have unknowingly been too hard on her in the past and so even years later she doesn't trust that it couldn't happen again. I would rather Kivi never learnt that.

All right, you caught me out. I just like them more than you. The most intense advocate for socialisation I know is a certified behaviourist and trainer as well. She doesn't like dog parks very much either, but she will get anyone she can convince into puppy preschool with the pups the moment they get them home. She trains with the basic rule that if your dog isn't being responsive enough it's because you aren't being interesting enough and concentrates on becoming more interesting rather than conditioning the dog to find you more interesting in the first place. I like this general philosphy because it treats dogs like individuals and the focus is on them rather than you. I am extremely leery of philosphies that turn dogs into something that is not good enough if left to develop on their own. Why tamper with what is naturally dog? I know you don't think that dogs naturally like to spend time with other dogs, but, well, that's something I can never agree with. They are social critters after all, and I don't think I can take the place of a dog for my dogs. They know I'm no dog. I think if I continue this discussion I'm just going to be repeating myself over and over. So I concede to you, K9, as a better debater on this topic, but you still haven't convinced me so it's only second prize. I usually say I'm easily convinced by a good argument, but I think in this case I'm not because it goes so against the grain of everything I love about dogs that I could never see it as a good argument whether it is or not. I LOVE that Kivi adores other dogs. It's who he is and I wouldn't have it any other way. If I wanted a dog that thought the world of me alone I'd get a different breed. Penny's verging on that kind of thing and I don't like it very much. It's too much pressure for me, especially when I spend so much time away from home. I hate coming home from a field trip to have her glued to my leg for the rest of the day. So dog parks can be good or bad. I don't like seeing them all tarred with the same brush because they have been a source of great, safe fun for us so far. I haven't actually found one of these bad ones yet, although I absolutely believe they exist. Socialised dogs sometimes think other dogs are awesome fun. Well, I dunno about everyone else, but I love taking my dogs places they think are awesome fun. You know, because I love them and stuff. It puts a big smile on my dile to see them having fun. I don't think there is much risk in this, but other people do. If you do, then don't let them, I guess. If you can't be bothered putting in the work to condition your dog to come when called then condition them to not find anything else in the world but you particularly amazing in the first place, I guess. I reckon the recall would be less work and more fun, but K9 assures us neutralisation is easy. Maybe not fun, though. I don't really subscribe to pack theory, but that's a bit complicated and a topic I'm not getting into. Suffice to say I'm not the only one that doesn't and it's not necessarily a fact. Why chase scary dogs away when your dog can safely tell them there's no need to get the teeth out? I have chased dogs away on occasion and it upsets Penny more than just letting her deal with it does. If I chase she thinks there's something to be worried about. If I don't she calmly handles it herself. Good for her. Maybe other dogs aren't as worried by chasing.

Did the dog in the video get hurt, K9? Didn't look like it to me. I've seen that happen a couple of times and no dogs got hurt then, either. Your arguments are circuitous and depend on the small percentage of dogs that actually do set out to hurt other dogs. My arguments depend on the majority of dogs that don't set out to hurt other dogs. My dog did not get into something with an aggressive dog because his value on other dogs was too high. The dog in question was not aggressive. She did not hurt my dog. She did not intend to hurt my dog. She did not threaten my dog. She frightened him a little before I got there and I hope it taught him a lesson. If it doesn't, no biggy. I'm confident that next time it won't be an aggressive dog. I don't see many of those and when I do my dogs stay away from them. I love that about my dogs. Socialisation is hardly "my method". It's been around for a long time and worked for a lot of dogs. I've said that it doesn't work for all dogs, but the dogs it does work for are fine and happy and safe. I've met a few hundred of them. I don't think everyone should socialise their dogs, I just don't think neutralisation is a particularly nice thing to do to dogs. Especially when I can't even figure out if it's the danger of dog parks you are scared of or the dogs at dog parks that love playing so much they don't always come when called. However you want to interpret what I've said, the facts still remain: 1. My Penny has NEVER done anything to provoke a fight from a strange dog (besides being in the wrong place at the wrong time - which was NOT a dog park or a dog beach) and has NEVER failed to defuse a tense situation. She's 13. She's seen a lot. I don't call charging up a tense situation. That one's already out of control and it's panic stations. Also never happened at a dog park. 2. Kivi has been approached by one aggressive dog in his life and he froze and defused that situation without anyone getting hurt. 3. Kivi has never run up to another dog that didn't want to be run up to. 4. The vast majority of aggressive dogs and tense situations I have seen have happened on the streets, not in the dog park. 5. You keep saying my dog's value for other dogs is too high, but he comes when called and still loves to play. I know a lot of dogs that also come when called and love to play. 6. On the other hand, I know dogs that haven't been socialised and they are confused, tense, worried little canines around other dogs. Lots of trainers recommend puppy pre-school. Lots of trainers recommend socialising. I go with the lots rather than the one, although I do see where you're coming from and where it might be a better route.

*sigh* I'm not going to answer everything because I agree to disagree with you. K9: Dogs aren't wild animals, wild animals wont go up to other wild animals to play that they don't know, their thresholds to defence are much lower than dogs (due to domestication). Uh huh, I'm aware of that. It's why I like having dogs. They are so freaking forgiving. They naturally want to spend time with me. It's like a holiday. Still, dogs are animals and there are similarities. Before I'd raised a wild animal myself I didn't recognise the diminished trust in my own dog. My guess is you won't see it. Doesn't mean it's not there. All the things you have brought up could happen anywhere. I've seen C happen on my driveway, although thankfully my dog was safely behind it all with me. No one got hurt, but one of the 5 dogs involved was the one that bit my mother in trying to get to my dog once. I've been to loads of dog parks and beaches at really busy times and I've never seen anything that has been as scary and potentially dangerous as the things I've seen just walking my dogs on leash around the neighbourhood. Play that turns aggressive is hard to pick because sometimes the dogs are just being rough and noisy. If you are scared of it then I guess it's a worry and a risk. I've only stepped in once because I've thought that play is turning aggressive and it was much like the video you showed only the dogs were about the same size. It only happened because my dog is an idiot that will put up with anything to play. She tried it on a few other dogs and they all walked away and she left it. So I do think it is a risk for my particular dog, but every time I've seen it it's been easy to put a stop to it and calm everyone down. They go right back to playing nicely afterwards. If YOU frighten a dog they will lose trust in you. If another dog frightens them they don't lose trust in you, unless you round on them and shout at them for it or something. Personally, I don't like to see my dogs frightened at all, but sometimes it happens anyway. I think if my dog was able to grasp the concept of "would you rather we never went to the dog park so that you never get scared" he would answer "god no! Bring on the puppers!" If we went to the park 100 times he might get scared, say, 4 times. The other 96 times were funfunfun. If we went 100 times and he got scared 20 times, I'd be questioning if we should keep going with him, because he's a resilient little man. For some dogs getting scared 4% of the time is too much. My dog wouldn't run away. Penny wouldn't go near it in the first place and Kivi would be belly up looking away and with his tail tucked and ears back. Even Penny, who is a snarky old so-and-so these days, would absolutely display full submission to a so-called rank aggressive dog. She's not suicidal. She has always known who she can snap at and who she needs to beg not to hurt her. Kivi knows, too, and knew from an early age without much experience. Once or twice Penny has been surprised by a dog coming out out of nowhere and chasing her. Again, not something that usually happens and not something I think you can guard against without never taking your dog off leash. It can happen anywhere. But that's all beside the point. The scenario in the video didn't look that bad to me. It was hard to see details, but the dog didn't look to me like it intended to hurt anyone. This is why you don't take dogs that scare easy to dog parks. As my dog isn't human it's a moot point. My dogs don't link events that happen more than ten seconds apart. I always get caught out anthropomorphising because I find it an easy way to describe things and people think I actually think that's what has happened. My apologies. To make it clear, my dog was starting to find trips to the dog park very exciting and his recall was slipping. I cut back the trips to the dog park and made a few trips to quiet places without dogs instead where we ran around and played with the dog and practised recalls with fewer distractions. Dogs are creatures of habit, as you would know. If every time I take them out we go to the dog park, it gets to the point where they anticipate it and you only have to put them in the car for them to start getting excited and it all feeds off itself and escalates the more it is reinforced. By taking them somewhere else I break that cycle. They can still enjoy the dog park when we go, but they are not anticipating it and don't get as excited. Add to that, I've established a new habit with my dogs. Sometimes when we are out we have fun together without other dogs. People are fun too. This is something that works with wild animals as well. My hare gets himself into nervous loops of behaviour sometimes where one action just serves to reinforce the feeling of nervousness and leads to an escalated response, which reinforces the nervousness more and when something finally happens it gets locked in his little head as BADBADBAD. To stop it from happening you have to break the cycle and establish new habits. It's the same with excitement. Excitement and nervousness are almost the same thing to my hare. Thankfully, it's different in dogs, but loops can still happen and I don't much like them. Animals in behaviour loops tend to switch off and it's hard to break into the loop to change the behaviour. So I put a stop to them when I see them forming. All this means I think it's important not to turn trips to the dog park into a habit. K9, I am supremely confident in my interpretation of the behaviour of my animals. You can come look at them any day and if I disagree with you I'd tell you to your face and explain why and I'd be very hard to convince otherwise because you and I have some pretty different ideas about the origin of behaviour and naturally I think you're wrong, as you think I'm wrong and would also be supremely confident in your interpretation and difficult to convince otherwise. If you depend on neutralisation, what do you do if you are walking your dog on leash down the street and a dog without an owner comes trotting up to you, hackles up, tail up, ears forward, eyes staring, growling? This has happened to me too many times to count on the street, but I would say probably about 3 or 4 times at the dog park/off leash beach. When I see this dog coming at us, I am relatively calm because I know my dogs can defuse this situation all on their own. Penny has NEVER in her life been unable to defuse this situation. Which means she has never been attacked in this situation. She's never even been snapped at in this situation, and nor has Kivi. Every time she's been attacked it's been on the street when she's on leash and nothing we could do about it. In my 13 years of dog ownership I've seen a lot of tense situations and very few of them have had much risk of anyone being injured. People seem to forget that aggression in dogs is largely ritualised. Now bunnies, when they fight they set out to do damage and they can and do kill each other. If they start fighting you have to stop it as soon as possible every time. They don't mess around with all the noise and show that dogs do. Dogs are like rattlesnakes. Every capability of causing serious damage or even killing, but rarely do it without warning.

This is getting off topic, but for the record: k9: Have you tested this or speaking hypothetically, because most dogs when pushed will display submission, they seemingly beg harder for your attention, not lose trust. If there were no socialisation value to a person that was hard on the dog, this may not be the case but when it is the owner, not so. I know this from experience. I spend a lot of time around wild animals and have one as a pet. Frighten them and they become wary of you. Dogs are no different in that, but you are right that they don't do the obvious wild animal thing. It's easy to assume that because they don't run or bite you they trust you just as much as they always have. I don't actually think socialising dogs is particularly risky provided: a) You have a vague idea what an aggressive dog looks like b) You know what your dog looks like when they are anxious or stressed or frightened c) You stay close to your dog at least to begin with to step in if you see an aggressive or anxious or frightened dog d) You have a dog that either doesn't scare easily or gets over a scare quickly with no lasting effects. I don't think it is risky for me because: a) My dogs don't run up to strange dogs b) My dogs don't bounce in the face of a strange dog c) A dog that employs warning signals such as growling or snapping or even lunging is trying to AVOID a serious confrontation. It's just communication. A dog that is using warning signals whether they are subtle or obvious can, IME, be fairly easily convinced not to attack. Sometimes you have to be fast, but often all they'll do is growl or air snap for quite some time. I don't let my dogs aggravate a dog that clearly doesn't like what they are doing, but generally I don't have to intervene anyway because my dogs don't like being snapped at. A dog that might kill or seriously injure my dog could turn up at any time. So far, I haven't met one that any amount of socialising or neutralising could protect us from. They have attacked even though my dog had been nowhere near them and not even made eye contact. The risk is there every time you step out of your yard, and sometimes you don't even have to do that! No doubt, K9, you would interpret my dogs' behaviour differently to me. But you'll never know. There are always going to be exceptions, dogs that just aren't naturally social, dogs that don't want to mingle, dogs that find other dogs stressful or frightening. I have to say I've seen loads of dogs that have been socialised heaps, adore other dogs, but still stick with their humans. So yeah, it still seems extreme to me to prevent all dogs from playing with other dogs just in case. Incidentally, I should probably point out that in bringing up Kivi I consciously took him to fun places where there would be no dogs when I felt he was getting a bit too excited about the dog park. He had a break from other dogs and had fun with his people instead. I think perhaps that helped reign in his excitement over other dogs and cement in his little mind the notion that people can be fun too and it's worth hanging out with them.

So what, now I have to assure everyone that I don't force my dogs to do things they don't like because I like it when they do it? Fine... If I push animals too far their trust in me diminishes. That hurts everything I'm trying to achieve with them, so I always keep a close eye on them and stop pushing if their comfort level isn't improving. Having raised a wild hare I can assure you that I know how easy it is to frighten an animal too much and how hard it is to overcome that fear later. It is so much easier with dogs to see the fear before it is a problem and stop. I don't want frighened animals period. If they start to get frightened I have let them down and I'd better do something about it quicksmart. If I want them to like something they currently don't like then forcing them and expecting them to deal is not the way to do it. Kivi hated the water as a pup and wouldn't even get a toe wet. I thought he'd enjoy the beach more if he was comfortable with at least cooling his feet off in the water, so we spent some time gently coaxing him into it. Now he will splash around up to his knees, but he doesn't want to swim so I haven't made him.

Okay, HOW many times do I have to say my dogs don't run up to strange dogs before it sinks in? They don't. Penny never does and I've seen Kivi do it twice (if you count all the times he greets Max at the dog park as one, because Max and Kivi have a peculiar way of greeting each other). Both dogs he's done it to loved it. He's never done it to a dog that doesn't like it, even when he was a pup and still learning. I haven't anywhere said that I let my dogs do whatever they like. They also don't jump on people. It's not like I stand by and let Kivi pin a smaller dog down and chew on its face, although whenever I get him off they're back at it 2 seconds later anyway. I've only met one dog I thought might seriously hurt him and both dogs were off leash at the time. Kivi certainly did not approach this dog and held very still and small while she checked him out and everything was fine. Every now and then I'm not confident the move he is making is safe and I stop him just to be on the safe side. I leave things be when a lot of people wouldn't, but I haven't ever thought it would be okay when it hasn't been. Heaps of times I've been a bit worried and it turned out fine. I don't yet trust Kivi not to do something suicidal and so obviously keep tabs on him, but I have no reason to believe he would do something suicidal. There are a few dogs we know at the park that charge Kivi in greeting. They never do it to Penny, who doesn't like it has never had to so much as raise her lip to make that clear to them. They take one look at her and avoid her. I am fine with my dog being snapped and growled at in the course of becoming experienced in dog language. I am not fine with them being attacked, obviously, and it's a shame that you can't walk down the street without risking a territorial dog tearing out of nowhere and grabbing your dog. No amount of neutralisation or socialisation would have saved us from that one, so no point discussing it. I don't have a particular method of socialisation. I'm just explaining why I have done things the way I have and why I am happy with how it has worked out. I have said it before and I will say it again: I went the dog park/daycare route with Kivi because I could see that he could handle the ups and downs. Sometimes it's scary and you have to have a dog that won't find it so scary that they stop thinking. I also know a dog that reacted very badly to socialisation, and if I found myself with a dog of a similar temperament I would most likely do things very differently. Lastly, I pay more attention to owners than dogs. If owners are tense I try to make eye contact and ask them if it's all right for my dog to approach. If I can't get their attention I err on the side of caution and keep him away. If they are nervous but make no attempt to move their dog away from mine I assume they just don't know what's going to happen and make a judgement call myself. I haven't ever got it wrong. I'm not about to sit here and list all the different kinds of dogs and situations I've seen, but if I'm not confident I am cautious. If I think a dog will do no more than snap and Kivi annoys it, it snaps and he learns. If I think a dog might do more than just snap I stay close and watch like a hawk, but usually it's all for nothing and Kivi finds someone else to play with on his own. Like I said, K9, I don't care who wants to neutralise and they're welcome to do it. I love watching dogs play, so it's not entirely compatible with the way I like to enjoy my dogs and the activities I like to do with them. That doesn't mean it's not perfect for your hundreds and thousands of clients. It seems extreme to me and always will.

We are just attacking this problem from different angles. K9 and co. opt for taking control themselves. I opt for giving my dogs all the tools they need to take control and make smart decisions. The more they know about dogs from experience the better they are at reading dogs they've never met before. Seeing as they are dogs and I am human, they will always be better equipped to read dogs accurately than I am. I choose to foster that and use it to our advantage. I love that my older dog doesn't even have to be told to stay away from a dog that looks vaguely aggressive. I can walk her right past it on a narrow footpath while completely ignoring it and her if I wanted to and she would not make eye contact or go near enough to touch it. It means that I never do have to worry about her approaching a dog that is unfriendly. She doesn't run up to other dogs. Kivi doesn't either, as a general rule. When he does I can only conclude he knows what he's doing because the dogs he does it to love it. My dogs know that not all dogs are friendly because they've been snapped at, growled at, lunged at, and in Penny's case, outright attacked. I am very glad that I have places I can take Kivi where he can mix with other dogs, be snapped at and growled at but remain safe. Daycare is great for that. Lots of friendly dogs, but every now and then they grump at one another, but all being well socialised themselves, no one ever gets hurt. I only wish I'd had somewhere I could take Penny where she could be safe interacting with other dogs. Being attacked certainly didn't do her any favours. What it comes down to is this: I would ABSOLUTELY neutralise a dog towards something I strongly suspected would be consistently more exciting to that dog than me. I would not neutralise a dog towards anything on the offchance that it would be consistently more exciting or even occasionally more exciting to that dog than me. I have an extraordinarily social dog that gets excited whenever he sees or hears other dogs. His preferred state of being is lying on the ground with at least one dog on top of him. Still, he comes away from dogs when called. We put in a bit of work and we get the best of both worlds: we get to watch him have a great time with other dogs and he comes when called. For those that want to be the centre of their dogs' universe, go ahead and make that for yourself. I don't care. But don't try to convince me that I want that because I know that I most emphatically do not. All I ask is that my dog not annoy the crap out of me and stay safe. If I can do that without neutralisation I most certainly will.

But if you're at a dog park or off leash dog beach, do you seriously ask every single owner before your dog approaches their dog? When I was at the dog park on the weekend there were some 10 other dogs running around playing together and no easy way to tell who was who's owner. I kinda assume that if you are at a dog park and your dogs are off leash and happily playing with other dogs then my dog slinking up and introducing himself and joining in the fun is not going to cause a fight. It doesn't in my experience. IMO, you aim for a balance with your dog and other dogs. They should spend time with their own kind and learn all the different ways dogs can communicate, and they are welcome to have a whole heap of excellent fun in the process. But they can't be running up to every dog they set eyes on no matter where they are. Kivi is allowed to say hi to another dog we might meet while walking the streets, but only sometimes if their owners want to and Kivi is expected to be reasonably calm about it all. He is expected to accept that sometimes we don't stop and talk to the other dog. And at the dog park he knows from experience that not every dog will be his friend. Last time I shared my views on this topic Kivi was still coming away from other dogs when called some of the time. Now he comes away about 85% of the time, although we haven't tested it much lately and I expect it's actually higher than that. I think most of this improvement comes from maturity, although we have spent some time improving his recall at home. For all I know he's better because he now spends two days a week at doggy daycare and gets a pile of dogs all to himself on a regular basis. I adore watching him play. It's great fun. I love watching how he deals with other dogs. It's often different. His drive to play with other dogs is a good thing to teach him how to avoid annoying other dogs. I just sit back and watch him make mistakes and correct himself. I only step in if his brain isn't working and he's in danger of making the same mistake twice.

Aww, poor dear. Penny is going through this at the moment, but perhaps the fact that she is simultaneously going deaf is a blessing in disguise. She can't hear anything odd to bark at. She does get very touchy these days, though. She doesn't like lots of movement close to her. I am careful to make sure she has her own space as much as possible and she gets pretty spoilt. If she gets upset about something I usually bring her to sit by me or next to me on the couch. Sounds wrong, but it seems to work and she doesn't get upset much. She gets the run of the house most days and can sleep wherever she wants. She spends the vast majority of her time sleeping on our dirty laundry. It seems to be both comfortable and comforting.

Hmmm... I never really had any troubles teaching Kivi, but he was a pretty easy puppy. He was never really much of a puller. I taught him the concept of heeling without a leash in the house and when we went out into the big scary world I leaned very heavily on his rock solid "sit". Every time he started to get ahead I'd tell him to sit before he go to the end of the leash. I'd catch up and we'd start again. Then I started taking him out on a long line. When he got close to the end I'd say "hold up" and stand still. With the long line at least it meant we got somewhere on a loose leash before he hit the end and we stopped. I think a lot of the problem with shorter leashes is that they barely get going before they hit the end, so where's the opportunity to learn what happens when the leash is taut? The leash is nearly always taut. So Kivi learnt that "hold up" means he needs to slow down or stop until the leash is slack again. It took a while, but he got the hang of it and I still use it a lot to remind him or in other situations. The reward was to keep going. Kivi has lately learned a pretty good heel. I taught it to him a little at home, but mostly on the go. I'd call him and lure him along close to my leg with a treat and say "hang about". I think this is how I would proceed with your dog. If you can hold her, the long line might help as well. You could always try a no-pull harness to try to teach her to be aware of the tension in the leash.

I think most dogs grow out of it. Most of the dogs I have watched grow up have gone through a crazy dog-obsessed period as youngsters. They have all grown out of it by 2 years, even the worst of them. We were at the dog park with Kivi today for the first time in a while. He was very excited, but once I got him to come to me I let him off leash and he was very good. He played well with all the dogs and came when called every time. He was more crazy on the leash than off. It's the tension of the leash and his inability to get to the other dogs that is problematic to me. Once he's off he's fine and no problems getting his attention. In fact, he was sweeping in every 30 seconds to say hi and make sure he knew where we were. I am confident he'll get over his leash thing, too. That's him at his worst and I can still get him to pay attention to me.