corvus

I tried giving Alex the Mini Pin a venison ear today after he tried for a while to tuck into a little bit of beef tendon and couldn't make it happen. He gave up on the venison ear very quickly as well. But he is miniscule. I used to give my wee little corgi lamb ears and they were quite good, but she could eat a pig's ear without too much trouble. Kangaroo has very low fat content as well. I just bought some kangaroo jerky from the afore mentioned ebay store along with the venison ears and beef tendon. It looks pretty good and is meant to be really tough. My dogs like kangaroo, but I think a lot of dogs don't. My mum's dogs are not especially keen on it.

I haven't done trotters, but pork hocks are a HUGE favourite around here. Penny adored them and Kivi is very big on them as well. They have heaps of meat. We cut them in half and they do two meals. They are hard to come by for some reason, so I always buy at least two when I see them. I would try trotters if I saw them.

I reckon you want to take them away from each other for a bit, but I think you have to be careful because if you broke the fight up before it nautrally came to an end (which I would always do if either or both dogs were on leash, btw) I suspect one or both dogs will figure they have unfinished business. I've seen tension from these things last for days between two dogs. They just stew until one snaps and they have another go at each other. It's scary and everyone ends up on edge waiting for the inevitable altercation. So if it were me, I would get them back together again as soon as they had settled a bit, but start quite a distance away and gradually get closer while walking them together. If that makes any sense. I would want to avoid either dog focusing on the other and trying to go over to them and aim to have them walking together comfortable enough to be able to ignore the other dog. That's all theory, though. It can take a long time for a stubborn, confident dog that was interrupted trying to make a point to let go of his unfinished business. It might be more practical to just keep them well away from each other for as long as possible.

I'd try it. I hear it's very good for dogs and I have fun feeding new things.

Well, my mum's cats sure think it tastes good! Her two kittens got stuck into it one day and ate quite a bit. It gave them diarrhea! Penny never minded it.

All very interesting. I am thinking it's rather like my recent depressing searches for a good hairdresser. There are a hell of a lot of people out there with hairdressing qualifications that can cut hair passably well, but there aren't so many really good hairdressers that can join the dots between a good haircut or hairstyle and what will look particularly good on you. And I don't know about anyone else, but I wouldn't trust a hairdresser with no qualifications around my hair unless they had been thoroughly recommended and I'd seen what great talent they had for myself. Does that make sense? I am learning from my mistakes and one day maybe I'll know what questions to ask a trainer before I sign up. In the meantime, I think PF would be thoroughly amazed at the things I do in a class to avoid causing a scene, but there are times I have to put my foot down because I am worried it might have a detrimental effect on my dog. I would say, though, that none of the trainers I've ever met in person have considered telling someone they need to see a behaviourist. I know because it was my mum that should have been told and she wasn't. Not even with the last dog she took to training classes who looked like he was going to bite the trainer one day when she took the leash from my mother. Okay, so the trainer was catching on by then that something was not right, but it was way too late by then. Mum should have been advised to get a behaviourist with that dog when he was at puppy preschool. And from there he went to training and it wasn't until the very end of the CGC course that the trainer began to realise there was something terribly wrong.

Too true. The most highly qualified and experienced trainer I know does not have fabulous people skills, unfortunately. I'm yet to personally meet a trainer that does. I can hack being patronised and spoken down to and in all honesty I've come to expect it from trainers, but I know a lot of people that can't handle it and I don't blame them. I am currently wondering if I can be bothered trying one more time with this new puppy we are getting to find a trainer that won't insist I do things I don't want to do. I would honestly be happy if I could expect just that much. If I could get through four classes without having a painfully inquisitorial 'discussion' about why my wish to do things marginally different is a recipe for failure, I swear I would be happy! Last time it all started with not wanting to put an anti-pull harness on my puppy that just didn't pull in the first place. Is that wildly unreasonable? How hard is it to work with what people feel comfortable doing even if they don't want to do exactly what you as a trainer wants to do?

Well, that's true, but I am ever so polite in person. :p ;) In all seriousness, though, if I go to a training class I assume that the trainer will assume I know nothing about dogs and that is fair enough. I don't want to get into a fight with them because they assume I know nothing and it will get ugly. It's not worth it. So I keep my head down until they tell me to do something I don't want to do and then I politely explain to them why I don't want to do it. I thought this was working brilliantly until I accidentally stepped over the line on a completely unrelated matter and discovered the semi-polite responses I was getting were actually suppressed rage. ;) I promise you, I do not go somewhere to learn and then challenge everything that's being said. If I go somewhere to learn I do my darndest to be respectful to the person I'm there to learn off, EVEN if they don't have a university degree. ;) Well, yes, those are fair comments, but it doesn't change the fact that messing around teaching something without actually understanding yourself how it works is troublesome. It doesn't matter if the handlers know the finer points of training and behaviour modification, but it matters if the person teaching them does, IMO. Because what do they do when someone in the class has a problem? Even a minor one? What do they do if someone in the class has an unusual dog? My beef is not about their level of general education, but whether they actually know what they are doing well enough to explain it accurately to someone who asks them. It doesn't have to be complicated. I think the quadrants are thoroughly superfluous, but if you don't have a good basic understanding of why some things are rewarding to some dogs and not others, or why some things are more punishing to some dogs than others, then how will you advise people on what they should do to get the best results? I've heard some pretty bizarre explanaitons for why things work. And I don't challenge those explanations because it's not worth it, but it's worrying to me that people are spreading those ideas around so freely to people who aren't ever giong to question it. They'll take it as law and spread it around a little more. I'm a scientist. The spreading of misinformation is a cardinal sin in my world. All good points. I don't dispute that anyone has nothing to learn from if they don't have qualifications. I just think it's an important foundation.

I can't help but think that if any old person can go out and get training qualifications easily, then there's no excuse for a trainer wanting my money to not have qualifications. Even if you just get them to wave in my face and say "See? Happy?". The way I see it, it is true that you can have all the qualifications in the world and not be a very good trainer, but equally, you can have 50 years of experience in training dogs and if you never did that course you may never understand why what you do works. To me, it is VERY dangerous to not know why what you do works. It's like a kid playing with fire. Or, you could have decades of experience and have been going to seminars and so forth, but still have terrible people skills and so your clients never understand what exactly they are doing. OR you could have loads of experience and still just be a lousy trainer because you are not naturally good at reading dogs. Dogs are stupidly forgiving, and if you have BCs or something, your years of experience don't necessarily count for much if I have, say, a Sibe. I'm apparently not very good at finding good trainers, though. I haven't met one yet. But I haven't looked very hard. It's depressing when you give them lots of money only to have them shout at you and accuse you of challenging them because the only reason they are dog trainers in the first place is that they are also bossy control freaks and a lot of dogs like those sorts. Who me? Bitter?

I can only assume they have checked with their vet about the Little Champions stuff. They seem to know what he can and can't have. Seems weird to me, but what do I know. Penny was once diagnosed as having pancreatitis and the vet gave her some bland canned food for a few days and then she was all good. Not sure what that was about. I question whether it was pancreatitis at all, but again, what do I know.

I dunno about the pancreatitis diet. Apparently he can have cooked mince, just nothing raw and no bones. I just do what I'm told. Huskyheaven, what you need is a little Pecks Paste. Penny hated her pain killers and wouldn't touch her entire meal if she suspected those pills were in it. But smoosh it into some Pecks fish paste or some pate and she couldn't care less as long as I hurried up and let her have her special yummy pre-breakfast treat. I call all that Pedigree stuff junk food, but I'm such a raw snob. I swear, though, Alex's poos smell the same as what I put in his food bowl!

I don't think it matters that much either way whether he is going blind. Eyesight is the most expendable of senses for dogs. Penny started going blind when she was about 10 and when we put her to sleep at 13 1/2 she was still acting like she could see most of the time, despite signs at other times that she could see very little, like me waving at her from a few metres away or her no longer responding to hand signals for all that she was looking right at me eagerly awaiting instructions. She was also very nearly stone deaf and yet she still managed to piece her environment together pretty well from blurry eyesight, muffled sound and smell. I didn't let her off leash much towards the end as she would lose us and follow some random strangers instead, or behave unpredictably which was as much to do with her senility as anything else. Anyway, as her eyes started to go first, I thought she would be blind before hearing became a problem, but as it turned out her hearing deteriorated much faster than her eyesight and my biggest problem was that most of the ways I had to communicate with her where verbal and she couldn't see enough detail to grasp hand signals a lot of the time. If I had my time again, I don't know that I would have done things any differently. Someone suggested to me that I start using different essential oils around the place to tell her if something was dangerous, of if she should step up or to just lay trails for her so she could find her way around, but I didn't need to. By the time it got that bad eyesight was the least of her worries. We think that because sight is so important to us that it's very distressing if one of our dogs starts to lose their sight, but they lose their sight gradually and learn to adapt. You can help them along, but unless you want to pay for surgery, there's not much else you can do.

... your dog makes you into a liar? Kivi Tarro, raw fed since 8 weeks old, has decided that he would FAR rather eat the Pedigree Little Champions that visiting Alex gets than his lovingly prepared and personally researched mix of raw mince, mashed vegies and cottage cheese. "Oh, my dog has very high food standards as he eats raw." I am fond of saying airily, "Kivi would no doubt choose raw if he had the choice." Well, seems Kivi would no doubt choose whatever Alex is having if he had the choice. No WAY will I accept that he likes sachets of beef and macaroni in gravy better than my raw mix. He just wants what Alex has got. Don't argue with me! He would happily scoff his raw if Alex wasn't here. :D To make me feel a little better, Alex would dearly like to eat Kivi's raw. He's not allowed because apparently he has pancreatitis, but he's pretty keen on it. And Kivi ran off with his fish last night without even bothering to hang around to see what Alex was getting. So the diet I am thoroughly emotionally attached to is still holding its own, just.

Prayers and hugs to you and Sweep. Get well soon, Sweep.

I don't differentiate, either. Although if I pick up a clicker it's game on for Kivi, no words necessary. Similarly, if I pick up a toy and start waving it in his face and/or pushing at him he gets into it. I might say "You wanna play??" but it sounds pretty similar to "You wanna go for a walk??" or "You wanna go to the dog park??" or "Wanna go to the river??" or "You want some dinner??" or any other exciting thing we do together. So that works pretty well for switching him on. Out and about I use his name to get his attention if his mind is wandering. Or I make kissy noises. Or click my fingers. Whatever works.

To me, getting qualifications of any sort shows your commitment to learning about that subject. That's an indication to me that you might be a good bet. People seem to think I'm an academic snob, though. It's not my fault I put a high value on formal training! I just know that I never decide one day that I've learnt enough about something. Even when you go to seminars run by people you don't think much of on a topic you know very well, you can be surprised and learn something.

I agree! I think people should listen to poodlefan. Glad it looks like they have this time. You can really get caught up in some horrible situations when you try to physically punish a dog that's willing to bite you. It's so easy to just kinda justify their aggression by meeting it with some aggression of your own. And when a dog is already so prompt to be aggressive, more aggression from you can just make them up their own ante, sort of thing. You HAVE to win the encounter or the dog is just going to get harder to manage and more aggressive. Big danger sign to me. That's why my motto is "First do no harm." One of my mottos.

I like this one from when Kivi Tarro was still quite young.

What would a dog have to do to be called defiant, then? What is defiance if it's not choosing to loudly and conspicuously not do what has been asked? It's going off on a bit of a tangent because everyone has pretty much answered my question anyway, but I'm curious again. :D

Ness, your scenario is pretty much exactly what my mum's dog Pyry does when he has it in his head that you might have something better. I am yet to figure out how these ideas come to him. I'm sure there's something that triggers it, but I dunno what. It's not a big leap for a dog like Pyry to go "Hmm, barking brought the good treats out" but it was a leap that Penny never made her whole life despite the same bribery taking place around her. Kivi does the thing where he decides he's gonna bark at you instead of doing the thing I know he can do under all sorts of distractions. The thing about the barking in response to a command is that standing, feet apart, head slightly lowered, tail up and barking quite loudly seems like a confident action. I call it defiance because I don't know what else to call it. I don't really think that "pushing the boundaries" is more accurate. What's the difference between pushing the boundaries and defiance from a cognitive sort of perspective? To me, the message I get from a dog that's barking instead of doing what he's told is "No! Don't wanna!" but in that easy-going fashion dogs have when they want to protest something without being too directly confrontational. If it turns out you're going to be hardcore about it they can be all like "I'm a playful puppy; love me!" Okay, that's reading more into it than there is, but just as a way to sort of translate. I realise I've been sub-consciously putting it in the same category as that goofy thing Kivi does when he accidentally aggravates another dog and he tries to turn it into a game. It's often successful, by the way. BUT, what I interpret as "No! Don't wanna!" may actually be just frustration. Sometimes I know it is. Maybe it always is. Perhaps even when Kivi knows the command he is frustrated that I somehow expect him to do it. I've noticed that I'm most likely to get that response if it's something he isn't wild about doing, or it's something that takes a bit of energy. It's not that he doesn't like playing dead, he just doesn't really want to put himself all the way down on the ground just so I can go "hooray" and make him get back up again. He is a lazy dog. He'll do it once, but if it's shaping up to look like I'm going to keep asking the same thing, he might bark at me, which I kinda take as him basically giving me the finger. Which means I need to offer better rewards if I want his cooperation, or I accept that he's bored with my training and try to spice it up a bit. Incidentally, what I think is a truly erroneous use of the word defiance with dogs is when, for example, OH uses Kivi's emergency recall when he has just become uber zoned in on a new dog that might play with him and is already running off to find out, and then when Kivi doesn't even turn an ear at the recall, OH says "The little ****!" and I have to sit there saying "He didn't even hear you!" or in earlier days "Don't be calling him when he's just found something really interesting to check out! He's not being disobedient. In his head he's just doing what is more fun. That's what dogs do." I swear, OH will be banned from using the ER without my permission with the next dog.

Personally, I am unsurprisingly in the "he's confused or underpaid" camp. My problem is figuring out which! It seems that increasing the value of the reward can help with both, though. My mother has this dog that will hold out for something better if he thinks you might have it back in the house or something. Spooky smart Master Pyry has a "Hmmmm.... if barking distractedly equals offering of better treats... I wonder if I can stand in the yard and bark distractedly to make the humans present these better treats?" look. Pyry is also known for running under the table and barking even more loudly when you say "Pyry, stop it!" and then skipping out of reach when you bend down to beckon him, then lowering his head and barking at you and your piddling treats when you try to lure him out. All results of lazy training and handling, but that's the difference between a forgiving dog and an unforgiving dog. I was just as lazy with Penny and it never occurred to her to test the consequences for doing what she wanted to do instead. Kivi is somewhere in between the two. Every now and then when he knows I've got awesome jackpot treats reserved for emergency recalls he thinks sitting when asked is worth more than a "good boy" or a bite of chewy junk food treats despite the fact that he was perfectly fine with those rewards for a sit two minutes ago. I usually indulge him once or twice because my thought is it strengthens motivation for everyday things to reward them spectacularly every now and then? And because he doesn't remember to hold out if he doesn't know I have good treats, unlike Pyry who goes "What else do you have?" when sadly all I've got is a ball with a furry tail and some dried liver. For some reason Pyry thinks I in particular might reward him with a live bird if he holds out.

One of the hardest things I found in training was knowing when something would be reliable in a more challenging environment, or knowing when my dog was confused and didn't know what I'd asked and when he knew but didn't want to do it. I feel like it's kind of inevitable that at some point you will misjudge how reliable something is or the pull of a valued distraction compared to what you are offering. I think it's really important to know what you're going to do in that situation whether you can avoid it or not.

You've never done an off leash recall? Or wanted to use a command like "leave it" over a distance?

Okay, ammend that. Kivi appears to have a slightly upset tummy, so that could well account for him being particularly quiet yesterday. He doesn't normally sleep all day. He'll spend several hours in the morning pouncing on things in the garden if the weather is nice. But when he was small it was play for 30 minutes then sleep for an hour kind of thing.

What do you do when your dog defies you? Example, you give a command and pup barks and whines at you instead of doing it and you KNOW they know it. Or, you give a command and your dog thinks about it, then decides to do something else instead? Or that moment when you have a young dog or puppy and they think they'll try backing away from you and barking rather than doing what they were asked? What do you do if this happens when your dog is not on leash?