corvus

That's not an argument or an explanation, Tony, that's a statement.

What's so great about 'balanced' training? I'm becoming increasingly dubious that you need to reward the good behaviour and punish the bad. Especially considering my punishments are never gonna match my rewards in creating motivation. So explain to me. Why do you need a balanced approach to training? Do you need to use every corner of the quadrant? Why?

The thing is that with some dogs and some owners, they are so into the "positive" without any balance that their dogs can reach the stage such as the above. These dogs may then require a higher level of correction than they otherwise might have needed had "positive" been balanced out with "consequence/correction" in the first place, and the dog might not have escalated to learnt behaviour of (eg) aggression which of course in itself can be complex. Said dog had a check chain on. The problem was, I assume, no training at all rather than too much positive training. This discussion is veering off topic, but incidentally, I didn't say mistakes caused by positive training can always be fixed. Please don't put words into my mouth.

Happy birthday Daisy!

Aidan points out most of the reasons why I like reward-based training and don't like to use punishment if I can help it. I think potential damage is always going to be worse with punishments than with rewards. The worst you do with rewards is rewarding the wrong thing. This can be rectified in most cases by stopping that and rewarding the right thing instead, at least in my experience. The worst you can do with punishments is much harder to rectify later. I like methods that are resilient to mistakes, because I make a lot of mistakes. I do not think I am a particularly dreadful trainer. I think that most people make mistakes. To be fair, I think there are times when prong collars may be a suitable tool. Like for the Boxer that tried to attack my mother's dog, for example, and was so big compared to his handler that he just dragged her along for the ride. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person on this board by any means that assumes that if my dog is not performing, I'm not paying well enough.

Again, it doesn't have to be that black and white. Listen to your pup. There are different barks. I can tell when Erik is barking because he wants to be let out of his pen to pee and when he's barking because he wants to be with me and wants me to come and let him out so he can. I don't respond the same way to every kind of noise he makes. All it takes is a bit of common sense. I see it as a two stage operation. First stage is to get them comfortable with the restraint. Second stage is to teach them what behaviour works and what doesn't. The second stage is when you start ignoring the noise. It's easier on them because you've already taught them that there's no need to be very upset because you always come back before they get too scared. IME, if you do it this way the noise only lasts a few minutes. Other people desensitise instead, and their pup might not cry at all if they have the luxury and patience to do it thoroughly. That's three ways. The desensitisation method is, in fact, considered by the authors of many books I have read as the accepted approach, as it happens. I haven't had the luxury of being able to do it yet, so I compromise with my method. It has worked a treat for me on two puppies so far, one a very clever and vocal one. The other I started with Nekhbet's method and abandoned it after trying to ignore a howling puppy for 30 minutes straight and finding it impossible. I switched to my method and he was right in two days. It works.

I had a trainer that said the same thing to me! It changes their behaviour, I was told. I would say that potentially it gives dogs more energy. Than, say, a supermarket dog food. I don't see how this is a bad thing. Apparently it's good to feed a dog on crap because it keeps them nice and docile? What kind of talk is that? The only thing I've found is that it's a little harder to find high value treats. When they get raw meat everyday they can get a little snooty about food treats.

Kivi is a bit like that. He tends to think there is a way to approach any dog and he just has to work out what it is through trial and error. I tend to let him make a couple of mistakes then call him away. Some dogs don't stand up for themselves and that's when I'll step in on their behalf and take Kivi away. Some dogs I don't trust and won't let Kivi make any mistakes with.

And this one:

Reposting: And now I have this one: And this one:

I was disputing that your way was the only way, Nekhbet. It's not, although your way works, too. As a pup that barks whenever he wants something and at the top of his lungs, I think if my method were going to teach any dog to bark constantly until I returned it would be him. But the thing is there's more to it than just going to them whenever they make a noise. You don't have to lump every remotely related behaviour together with dogs and puppies. There are times when it's helpful to go to a puppy that's crying and times when it is detrimental to you. It just depends why the puppy is making a noise.

Double post

Penny came to even dislike the chicken minces with bone in them. She would spit out all the bone. I fed her beef mince with vegies, yoghurt or cottage cheese, and she got liver and heart once a week, which she loved. One thing I found was that it was difficult to give her the right amount of food. Because she was so inactive, she only needed a tiny amount to get her through or she'd put on weight. I ended up adding more pumpkin and sweet potato.

It's actually not the only way for a pup to learn, Nekhbet. With both Erik and Kivi I taught them to get used to it with minimal screaming by sitting down next to the pen/crate while they chewed on something and settled down. I'd leave when they were asleep and try to be back before they woke. If I wasn't I'd go back as soon as they started barking. I think if you leave them to bark for ages they just get worked up and it all takes them longer to adjust. It took three days for Kivi to learn I would come back and Erik a day and a half. Erik was a couple of weeks older than Kivi and he had Kivi to help him adjust. Kivi just had my cranky old corgi who wanted nothing to do with him. I have no way of knowing if Erik barks much while I'm out hoping I will turn up, but I can say he's never barking when I get home and will voluntarily get into his pen even though he knows it means I'm going out.

I found with my dogs that if I took away the midday meal before they were ready they'd throw up at about 4 in the morning. Kivi was that way for ages. Even if fed him a too small midday meal, or too late. I started cutting him back to 2 meals around 5 months, though.

Aw, poor Kammy. My boy is sometimes a little too nice for his own good with the puppy as well. If he yelps and Erik doesn't take any notice, I go and take Erik away. Sometimes when he gets really worked up the best thing is to pop him in his pen with a pig snout or something similar.

On rewards.... I got the idea from something Temple Grandin had written about training antelopes to use dried apple as a reward for my hare. Grandin suggested the really good brands that are very wet and juicy. It worked really well. Apparently the antelopes like 'em heaps.

Try a little deeper? What is it about dogs and people and walks that get her attention? Can you use that? Even I know what you mean by tunnel vision. I'm pretty sure every dog does that sometimes. Have you seen the new Pixar movie UP? The dogs all have collars that allow them to talk. They'll be chatting away and then they'll go "SQUIRREL!" and stare off into space for a few seconds, then pick up where they left off. Loved it. Anyway, I think to get them to give you their attention when they are like that you really have to have a very solid conditioned response. That takes quite a while. With any animal that's turned its brain off I typically just wait around for their brain to switch back on again. I noticed in your other thread that you said that could be 20 minutes. Definitely not practical or useful! Sorry. That wasn't a very useful or practical post. Have you heard about the Control Unleashed book? I always forget who wrote it. It's meant to be quite good. First things first, though: Find a whole bunch of reinforcers!

I just started this one with Erik today. I had a treat in my hand and just waved it around until he lifted his paw, then click (or mark with whatever marker you're using). He was so cute. He tried it with one paw, then the other paw, then he literally leapt at my hand and planted both front paws on it. Kivi was easier because he loves using his paws and just did it naturally. Just started this one, too. Ask for a sit, then wait a few seconds before releasing either with your terminal marker or your release word (like "okay"). Take a step away. Gradually increase time and distance before releasing/rewarding. It's sometimes good to try to go back to your dog before marking so they don't learn to bolt as soon as you say "good" or whatever. Ah, this one is so good for stress-free feeding. I ask Erik to sit and pop him tiny tidbits from his meal if he's sitting quietly. He picked it up SO fast! When he's jumping around barking I just ignore him. We've been doing this since we got him a month ago and he's currently sitting quietly through me preparing both dogs' meals with one or two treats. You just gradually expect longer periods of silence before rewarding. I did this with Kivi and he now sits politely and waits to be fed without making a sound. Same thing for putting the bowl down. I ask for a sit, then pop it down. Pretty easy. Have fun!

Try making a list of the things that distract Molly and start ranking them. That's a good way to figure out what drives her. How about things that are moving? Is she interested in a toy if it's "running away" from her? How about freaking awesome food, like fresh cooked liver, or roast meat? If she loves to explore, why not use a fast-paced, frenetic exploring session with her as a reward? My mum has a dog that will happily explore on his own, but man does he love doing it with a friend. Preferably at a run. You could put her on a long line and just go with her wherever she wants to go. Pretend to be super interested in whatever she's interested in. Sniff the ground and imagine what it's like to be Molly. Simulate flushing by tossing out a toy when she's least expecting it, then run after it with her? Hey, you could set up an exciting exploring session where you go out before and place rewards around about, and then you get to discover them together and make a big fuss. ETA, if she's easily distracted, try really mixing up the rewards so she never knows what she's going to get. Might make it more interesting to her.

Maybe try the clicker solutions yahoo group? I'm sure someone on there once was training a goat. They have had some good hints for marker training my hare. Training unusual animals is essentially the same as training a dog. You just have to make sure your rewards are right for your animal, although it sounds like you have already mastered that. I read an interesting tale about a walrus in Grey Stafford's book "Zoomility". Walrus was very touchy and would try to impale people if they accidentally frustrated him or touched him in a way or place he had not been conditioned to. They relied heavily on incompatible behaviours. And spotters! It sounded like sometimes the spotter would need to rescue the trainer by asking for a different behaviour. Stafford also spoke about a human aggressive dolphin who was brought around through desensitising to be quite safe and reliable, even doing things that were unpleasant.

That helped us as well. And rewarding big when he checked in on his own. He's pretty cute when it suddenly occurs to him out of the blue to go see if his people have some roast lamb for him. That's something you can work on without other dogs distracting him at first. Kivi gets rewarded with food most times he falls in beside us on his own, so he does that a lot, even when off leash at the dog park. There was a point where we reduced the dog exposure because we were in danger of spoiling our recall. We did a few weeks of going to quieter places and concentrating on being fun and practising the recall. It seemed to set us back on the right track. The thing I'm finding with the recall is you have to keep practising it all the time. We do a recall or two every time we let Kivi off leash. We nearly always have some roast meat or something on us for recalls when we go to an off leash park or beach. It's quite fun to practise it, though, and it stays nice and strong that way.

I don't let Kivi off if he's acting like a fool, either. He has to be at least switched on enough to sit when asked, and as a general rule, switched on enough to actually look at me when I say his name. Sometimes he gets fixated and all he can see and hear in the world is the dog he wants to go and say hi to. If I let him go then, he would certainly charge up to it. But if I make sure he's come down enough to hear me, I know he'll be all right. If he can hear me he will come to a recall. Someone on another board said this morning that their dog was very reactive around other dogs when he was young, and then she focused on training him with toys and high drive games and the problem went away without any work on it directly. Interesting.

What does he do off leash? One of my dogs adores other dogs and does stupid things like jumping up and down on the spot when he's on leash, but when he's off leash he approaches quite carefully. I still don't trust him to stay away from dogs I think won't like him, but he is getting there slowly. Having a great recall really helps. I can recall him away from a dog in most cases. Kivi is 18 months old and still hasn't learnt that not all dogs want to be his friend, despite being a dog park and daycare veteran and having had his share of being gruffed at for being overly friendly. However, we are making progress with the stupid on leash behaviour. If he starts I just freeze. Sooner or later he sits because it's a default behaviour and if he wants something and can't get it he eventually thinks of sitting. Sometimes I can get him to do it on suggestion quite early and we don't have to stand there for two minutes while he acts like an idiot. The more I do this the more he defaults to sitting as soon as he even feels the tension on his leash. This goes a long way to having a calmer dog and it generalises really well so that he has started sitting when he feels that tension no matter what the reason. I wouldn't avoid other dogs. I'd do the opposite. Flood him and just take him to places where other dogs go and work on getting his focus and rewarding the hell out of it. You could start small, like just in town or at a park where dog walkers pass by. I haven't done this with Kivi, but I think I'd have good results if I did. There's nothing like making something boring for reducing excitement. And in the meantime, I think it's good for dogs like this to play with smaller dogs so they learn to curb their enthusiasm. My mother's Sheltie pup taught Kivi to be more gentle because she would dive under something low where he couldn't get her whenever he got too rough. He learnt that the only way he could get her to play with him was to lie down and let her come to him. These days he still tends to grab her tail as soon as he sees her to try to make her play, but she tells him to get lost and he remembers he has to be more gentle with her.

Just as a precautionary note, Kivi Tarro was quite afraid of the flirt pole I made. I tried dropping the pole and just using the toy on a line and he was afraid of that as well. He was going through a bit of a period at the time where he was sometimes afraid of things that appeared to be floating in the air. I had not caught on and introduced him to the toy dangling from a string and he ran away. It took about a month of me playing with it by myself before he stopped taking off when he saw it. Erik loved it on sight, though. I think it was a matter of picking a bad period in Kivi's mental development to introduce something.