corvus

I think Diablo has aggression issues.

I nearly cut part of my thumb nail off whilst cutting up cheese and trying to click Erik's good behaviour at the same time a few weeks ago. :rolleyes: I really like clicker training. The more you do, the better you and your dog get. And ask for help if you have any trouble! I've had so much help from folks that have done a lot more clicker training than I have. It makes a big difference.

You can train more than one thing at once, but you just have to make sure your dog is keeping up, if that makes sense. I have my dogs working on a few things, some are on cue and some are not, but I'm usually only working on one thing that isn't on cue at a time. I think. I'm not sure, now that I think about it. I do free shaping just for fun and for improving my own skills and helping my dogs be creative. It seems to me the dog just tries for a click, and as long as you keep clicking you're shaping it. If you go away and come back half a minute later and start clicking something else, they will start following that. I am thinking about teaching Erik a "try something new" suggestion to help him know when we are mmoving onto something else. Kivi I've stopped free shaping, mostly. He doesn't like it. He likes luring. I don't think there's any need to do exclusively clicker training.

Sounds like you are doing all the right things. It takes a long time to train a really reliable recall. For Kivi, it took about a year. I don't think it will take that long for Erik, as he is naturally more interested in us and what we are doing than Kivi was, but I think you've got to expect it to take a long time. This is because you will have setbacks. She will leave that puppy stage where she just wants to be close to you all the time and start to explore the world and find new and exciting things to do. And also, a lot of it is conditioning, and it takes a lot of work to condition something so that it's so strong your dog will automatically come whenever you call. We have Leslie Nelson's Really Reliable Recall dvd and use her method. It's very good. ;) The emphasis is on paying very big whenever they come when called, never call them unless you are sure they will come, and never call more than once. I don't let Kivi off leash until I'm confident he will not just come when I recall him, but look my way when I say his name. You can test these things on leash, especially if you have a long line. Until I'm confident he's not going to run off, he trailed a 5 or 10m long line. Long lines are good for your own confidence as you know you only have to get within 5 or 10 metres of your dog to catch them again. The only thing is, long lines come with their own dangers. You have to keep an eye on them so they don't get caught on things, get wrapped around people's ankles, or picked up by other dogs.

I carried Erik around. He was small enough that it was no big deal, and he needed the exposure. I sat on park benches with him and sat around on a bench in town with him and walked around with him in my arms a bit. And he went to puppy preschool. It's hard, but ultimately you either risk it or you don't, and I guess that is your choice. We stayed away from dog parks and the likes, but did let Erik run around on the mud flat that gets flushed by the tide every 6 hours. Not sure if that would take care of all the bad things, but I guess we were lucky. Kivi was too big to be carried much, but went in the car to a few places. He was not nearly as leery of the world as Erik was, though, and I socialised Erik a lot more.

PCD does all sorts of odd things. My neighbour dropped a Cockatoo around last week whose beak had grown all twisted so he couldn't eat. Was only missing a few feathers. They say in lorikeets that a tell-tale sign is feathers that look displaced because of the colour. That feather higher up on his back is an excellent example of that.... Feed stations are a major spreader of PCD. It's very contagious. They tell us in WIRES that if you have an aviary with wood in it and you put an infected bird in the aviary, you'll have the virus in your aviary for years. If I were feeding wild parrots, I'd use metal trays and I'd wash them out twice a week with disinfectant. Supposedly PCD is resistant to most disinfectants...

Can I just say that she must be adorable! I am currently quite enamoured with really rock solid sits (or downs). That might change at some point of course, but right now, I find it so useful to be able to say "Sit" and get a sit even in exciting situations. Even if it's just for a second or two, I think it helps reign them in a bit so they can start thinking rather than reacting. I usually just wait things out and when the dog calms down enough to do a sit, at least they are now listening to me and I can possibly get them to do something else useful, like a heel. Erik is required to sit quietly before he gets anything. It's a good start on impulse control and is the mechanism by which I get a good sit. Also, ditto to what everyone else said.

Erik says... Yes! That was at about 12 weeks, I think. Straight into his little Whiting. Kivi eats his fast so Erik won't get it: I usually get Sand or Red Spot Whiting. Sometimes Leatherjacket. I wanted to get some Whitebait last week to use as recall treats. OH was not as amused by this notion as I was, so I passed. This time. ETA Barra is my favourite. No dogs would be fortunate enough to get Barra in this house. ;)

Yes. You can always call her off things she sniffs as well. Kivi gives us lots of opportunities to practice leave it on walks. He likes to pick things up. Often things he's not wildly interested in, so as soon as you say "leave it" he's happy to leave it and come over for his treat. ETA Also, it's a good idea to trade up. Whenever you ask her to leave something, give her something even better. Even if you just ask her to leave one treat, then give her several treats. Leave kibble, get roast beef. Leave a ball, get a game of tug. That kind of thing.

:flame:

Yeah, we are having this problem a bit as well. I was just kinda assuming we needed to proof it more. Not just food on the floor or in your hand, but on the table, on a chair, on a box, anywhere I can think of. One piece, a small pile, just some plastic, a tissue... the more variations the better?

Ah, I realise perhaps huski was talking about respect through trust. I concede that that's a fair interpretation. In the context of this thread, the incident was over a contest. Whenever there is contest there is a winner and a loser. The winner in a social species is often the one that behaves dominantly as a signal to the other individual that they are prepared to settle this with violence if need be. Hence, respect through intimidation. Trust is a little more complicated to me, and is more likely to avoid contest in the first place. However, some dogs are very confident and stubborn and I believe that natural personality has more impact on whether a contest will arise than how much each party trusts one another. Erik trusts Kivi implicitly, but all bets are off when he wants something.

For someone who thinks they aren't judgmental Corvus that's a very judgmental statement to make. I don't know anyone whose dogs respect them who built that relationship through intimidation. Respect is not something that can be forced. O rly? It's not a judgement of owners, it's a biological fact as far as I'm concerned. Dogs don't understand benevolence, compassion, wisdom, or experience (there's contention about experience, but that's another topic)- the things that humans value and respect. They respect threats. Often very subtle threats like hard eyes, stiff muscles, or body blocking, but those things are threats all the same. Even not being entirely sure whether a person might chase or hurt them is a threat to a dog. Respect certainly is something that can be forced. Kivi rarely consciously pushed into Penny's personal space when she was still alive because he respected it. He respected her because she threatened him. In contrast, he is very comfortable pushing into my personal space, but will back off when I ask him to. Not because he respects me but because he has learnt he gets rewarded for following my suggestions. Willing cooperation. We are talking about dogs, here, not people. People can earn respect through all sorts of benign means, but dogs don't understand that kind of thing. They often try to avoid conflict because they are social, they like to get their own way, they are exclusively self-serving, and they will do what works for them.

Yup - not sure what I think though . I haven't made up my mind yet A better question is do you really want a dog that is more persistant? On the one hand it's useful if you're trying to teach something difficult, and I guess it would make for a forgiving dog if you make some mistakes, but on the other hand, I'm guessing it works both ways and you might have more trouble extinguishing behaviour?

I actually find this quite offensive and hurtful huski. I'm not sure whether that is intentional or not, I may not be an expert but I am trying my best, and there are definitely more tactful ways to make your point. I'm sure huski didn't mean to be hurtful. If she casts her mind back to the last time she thought someone was insinuating that there was something missing from her relationship with her dogs I'm sure she would remember how upsetting a suggestion it can be. There's no need for anyone to judge anyone else's relationship with their dogs based on just a couple of incidents described over the internet. A lot of dogs try things out, and they will keep doing what works for them. Just because Pete tried out something that is socially unacceptable in the Western society he lives in doesn't mean that he must have little or no respect for his owners. We don't know very much about his home life and how he previously related to his people. But it really doesn't matter. What will define their relationship with Pete is what they do with him now. Of course, what Pete did is troubling. But it doesn't necessarily mean anything about his relationship with the people he lives with. If it makes you feel any better, Pete.the.dog, my puppy tried jumping up and biting my leg last week when I dared to eat ice cream in front of him and refrained from sharing with him. Doesn't make him a bad dog, or mean that there's something wrong with how I relate to him or how I handle him or how he sees me. All it means for sure is that he's a bold and outspoken character and I need to gently teach him to manage his frustration and impulses and give him acceptable ways to ask for things he wants. And he needs to learn to accept that sometimes he doesn't get what he wants. He's currently snuggling on the couch with me licking my face because he sat quietly by the couch in the manner I have taught him to "ask" for something. Respect in the dog world is usually won through intimidation. Frankly, I would take willing cooperation over respect any day.

And OH's parents' Mini Pin marks everything in sight outside and several things inside when he is feeling stressed and overwhelmed by my two dogs. Consider that dogs like predictable environments. Changing house rules or introducing new family members can throw a dog's whole world into the realms of unpredictability, and is subsequently stressful for them. Urinating in odd places or marking excessively can be a symptom of this stress, not necessarily a protest or an act of dominance. I'm not entirely convinced they even do it on purpose in those cases. Dog's don't often plan things. They just react to their feelings and their sense of the environment. I say just keep on doing what you're doing with Pete. Even if he did start marking everywhere, it isn't necessarily dominance. It could just be that he's upset by his environment going from predictable to unpredictable.

Hmmm, I can't say I've found that. But then again, after a jackpot, I often switch exercises and work on something else right away. Usually something she really likes, like between the legs heeling. I think that this would more likely happen with 'poor' use or overuse of jackpots - so the dog begins to 'expect' the larger reward, or it's become too reiable as to when the dog will get the jackpot Yes, that was the gist that I got. LP, when you said intermittent reinforcement including with clickers and following up with treats, did you mean not rewarding every time you click?

As long as you weren't wearing them at the time. I think toileting and dominance is often a tenuous connection. They may be linked in some cases, but let's pretend for a moment that it was Pete behaving dominantly. Then what? You are already doing everything that is recommended for these things, and growling at you is WAY more serious than toileting on your clothes, even if the latter was dominance (which I don't think it is). It's all together likely that he got caught out and just looked for something absorbent to go on. There's always the possibility that he's got a UTI, or he might just be stressed. Best not to read too much into it, I think. I've heard a lot of people say it is meaningless when a dog goes on your belongings or bed. After having a rabbit that would pick the places in the room that smelt most strongly of my or my hare to wee on when she was out of her cage, I would say that anything is possible. But is the answer going to have any impact on how you are already working with Pete?

So true. Prevention is better than cure.

Definitely a sidelines boy. He certainly gets excited and silly, but for the most part he is very laid back and can often be found awaiting me in my study after he has his breakfast. While Erik is still hooning around the place licking bowls and trying to help me load the dishwasher, Kivi has taken up the coveted spot behind my desk chair (where he is right now) and is just quietly waiting for the day's work as companion dog to begin. :D Kivi is, I think, a particularly laid back Lapphund. He is not phased by much at all and just likes to be nearby. He has a pretty soft temperament and can be easily upset (he literally cried when one of my mum's cats hissed at him - she didn't even take a swipe!), but he is very resilient and like Ahsoka, recovers quickly. He is so sweet, I kid you not, OH at one point expressed concern that Kivi was mentally retarded because he was about a year old and we had still never seen him growl, or lift his lip, or even give a hard stare. OH thinks the aggressive part of his brain is short circuited. :D He's just sunny, cotton candy Kivi. He is very touchy feely, but not quite velcro. When I spoon with him he moans happily, which is just too much happy juice for one girl to handle! Kivi has been pretty easy to train, but he's lazy and often when I ask for something like a down he's like "Really? But the ground is SO far away. How about I sit instead?" He wants things to be easy. When I train him I have to be careful to keep it very easy and lots of rewards or he'll lie on the ground and whine at me. I think that this is what happens when you have a very sweet and gentle dog. The boys seem to me to be more laid back and kind of less active, but they seem less sooky than Kivi. He's a mama's boy.

Yeah, Erik was trying that kind of thing on at 10 weeks. My older dog is bigger, though, and has a thick coat. He won't even growl at Erik, though. Erik is now 18 weeks old and continues to do whatever he pleases to Kivi. At least, he tries to. Kivi has some pretty effective non-confrontational ways to handle Erik, but they wouldn't work so well if Erik was bigger than Kivi. I just look out for my boys. It's no big deal to distract one of them if they are getting too rowdy or want to argue over something they both want. It's not hard to minimise situations that could lead to conflict or the development of behaviour you actually don't want in the long run.

That's the reasoning behind the method Leslie Nelson uses to deliver rewards to dogs that have just recalled nicely. She calls it "fine dining". You can give them a lump of meat, which is all well and good but it will be gone in a second, or you can crouch in front of them and break the meat up into little pieces and feed them one at a time, cooing over how wonderful your dog is, and that can take ten seconds or more. She thinks it feels like a bigger reward to the dog, even if it's the same amount of meat.

Hahaha, good question. I think it depends on how enthusiastic they are. And whether you can top it by increasing their enthusiasm for you. I always tend to think "how can I be better than that" rather than "how can I make that less cool", but there are times when it's REALLY hard to compete with something and times when you just don't want them to find something cool full stop. Like chasing cars, for example. If they can't even hear you when other dogs are nearby, you've got to find a way to get their brain to switch on again. For Kivi, this was as simple as waiting for a minute or so. Other dogs you'll be waiting a long time. If they can hear you and have just decided other dogs are better, you might be able to recover just with lots of conditioning. Call their name, reward, call their name, reward, keep the reward rate high out and about so they come to always be listening for you saying their name. It has worked for Kivi, and my rewards do not compete on their own with other dogs for him. It only works because he's so used to hearing his name and coming over for a reward that he doesn't think much about it. And because I made an effort to be a fun person for him to hang out with. If you do just want them to find dogs less interesting, the best way I think to do that is to flood them with dogs without letting them interact with any of the dogs. Sitting around a dog park for 20 minutes without getting to talk to any dogs is pretty boring. But just when they're getting over the whole thing, you can do some training with them and suddenly you are really interesting. Just be careful you don't make them uber frustrated by restricting dog access when they can see the other dogs for themselves. You want them to get bored, not worked up.

It happens to us all, belgian.blue! I met three when I was still thinking about what breed I wanted. It only took one to convince me. The other two were superfluous. I felt a bit superficial because my initial attraction was all about looks. They are so pretty! But then they have this gorgeous, easy-going nature as well. Kivi gets to trotting at my side when we go for a jog and he really turns heads, but then when people meet him they end up grinning from ear to ear. He's the kind of dog people imagine they want: calm, gentle, very friendly. He sidles up to complete strangers and leans his head against their thigh while they are walking. When they look down, he's looking up at them with his tongue out and they smile and say "Hello. Aren't you lovely?" He's been such a pleasure. And there's nothing more special for a human than a dog that loves cuddles. I quite like serious, aloof dogs, but I have to admit that I LOVE snuggling with Kivi. It just ticks all my human needs boxes.

I came across the term "scalloping" in relation to jackpots last night when I was checking out the Ted Turner videos at Dogwise. The clip only went for about a minute, but in it Turner explained how if you give a jackpot, it's common for an animal to slump afterwards and take a few moments to find the motivation and drive to continue training. Would have to buy the dvds to learn how he handles that. I use jackpots infrequently, usually just a bit of a fuss and a couple of extra treats one at a time. I use them infrequently because... I'm not very good yet. I assume. I don't use them with the hare because he never hangs around long enough to get one. Training for him has got to be a low key affair. Erik gets them the first couple of times he completes something. Kivi gets them more intermittently and randomly. Kivi needs lots of motivation, but Erik will work just for the fun of it, so I guess a jackpot means different things for them. For Kivi, it means it's worth his while sticking with it, and for Erik it means he just nailed it.