corvus

I've stopped using those verbal interruptions. I found I spent a lot of time maintaining them and they were still only mostly effective at best. "Leave it" is way better. Erik responds brilliantly just to his name. I go "Erik, what are you doing?" and he runs over to me to see what I'm going to give him. He rarely remembers what he was doing before I interrupted him. Even better than interruptors, though, is a good inhibition. I'm deadset against creating inhibitions, but sometimes it's that or mess around with ever more creative ways to keep them off something. IME, if you want to keep them off something, a physical barrier is the best thing. Buuuuut, if it's not good enough and the dogs gets through it, you've got problems. Last time I messed up with barriers it resulted in obsessive behaviour and then I really did have to counter that by creating an inhibition. I hope I never have to do that again, because it is so borrowed time, for all that it worked like a charm. But I didn't put the barrier in until the behaviour was already established. That was dumb of me. I now put barriers up if I notice one of the dogs going back to somewhere I don't want them, and take them away a few weeks later. It usually works on its own, although I've found I have to be ready for their interest to be piqued again if it's something good I'm trying to keep them off.

I kinda think that flirt poles don't work without a person on the other end, but maybe that's just me. I used to take it to the dog park, but I stopped doing it because he wouldn't leave my side or stop staring at me and throwing behaviours at me as long as I had it in my hand. So it stays at home now, at least until we master the "Go play" suggestion to go be a dog for a while without stressing about whether I'll let him play with the flirt pole or not. Any toy that doesn't work without a human partner involves interaction. Even if all he does is a default down, he doesn't get to play for free.

I think effective use of punishments is one thing a lot of people struggle with in dog training. I don't like to use punishments at all, and if I do I make sure they don't obviously come from me, and that I'm doing plenty of teaching what TO do with rewards so they don't just go back to it. That's not just to protect my relationship with my dog, but also so they don't think being punished for a behaviour they like doing only happens when the person is around. You could try a pile of empty cans on the bench. When she jumps up the cans will fall all over the place making a lot of noise. I've heard that used with a good deal of success. If it were me, and I'd tried redirecting her the very moment she looks at the table every time, and I'd tried putting looking at the cabinet WITHOUT jumping on it on cue and only rewarding it when she did it on cue, never when she offered it.... if I'd tried those and she was still jumping up, then I'd set about installing an inhibition with punishments. If done correctly, it should only take a few repetitions, but be warned that the more you use a punishment the less effective it becomes. And a punished behaviour can come back if you don't take control of the situation and train them what they should be doing.

Sure, no problem. It was only a suggestion if you're using the same toy/tool for two different outcomes, you can either use a cue or a different toy on the end. </bewilderment> That wasn't directed specifically at you, Aidan. Everything's cool. Erik is very good at cues, whether I'm conscious about them or not. Gotta watch myself with him! He seems to learn cues for getting very very excited everywhere he goes. Yeah... I realise that, if only because I'm getting tired of trying to explain it. I only have early ones where we were both fumbling around a bit, but Erik did a beautiful off-switch for me for his dinner this evening, blinking, tail down, trying to pretend to be sleepy. He was either doing a good job of pretending or he can ramp up in a millisecond. Either way, it's the thought that counts at this point. He can't act relaxed without being relaxed forever! He's not that clever. I think. I'll see if I can get something that's more like what I think an off-switch game should look like, but I'm on a steep learning curve, here, and I make a lot of mistakes. :D Good luck, woodbyne!

For Erny as she seems to have missed it: ..with emphasis added. Man, I've been meaning to put that barking on cue for months and I keep forgetting. He does shut up on cue all right, though. Fascinating thing, since he's learnt the default down, when he gets the "Erik want x y and z!" barkies, if I tell him "shh" he shuts up AND goes into a default down. He came up with that one all on his own. It's interesting to see when default behaviours come out. With Erik, when he wants something and when he doesn't know what to do. It's a nice neon sign for me if I'm training with him and instead of doing what I ask he downs. I'm like, "What's that Lassie, you are confused??" He also does it when he's too revved to do anything else. Another nice neon sign for me. I need neon signs sometimes. Incidentally, my other dog is generally quite disinterested in catching. The only time he will do it is when he's as drivey as he gets without losing it. Any other time he loves to chase, but the moment it stops moving he walks away. Sometimes he doesn't get to a ball before it rolls to a stop and he just wanders off. If I throw it again, he'll bound after it and if he gets to it before it stops he'll pounce, but then he walks away again. He doesn't even pick it up most of the time. I have two herders and they both very much like to chase and stop whatever is moving. My old corgi also liked to chase roos. Being a corgi, she never caught one. She chased for about ten metres and then they were well and truly gone. In contrast, Pyry the Vallhund does not like to chase. He only likes sure bets and as far as he's concerned, it's not worth his energy unless he knows he can catch it and kill it. Can I just stress again that the flirt pole is just a toy. The clip was basically just me playing with Erik and milking off some of his excess energy. Just fun and exercise. I'm a little bewildered that suddenly it is a "tool" and needs to have a "purpose" and be used in a "proper" way. It's only what you make of it. It is, however, a very exciting toy for doggies.

He has already learnt to bark, Erny! I don't mind a little noise during fun, but as part of the off-switch game my feeling is he shouldn't be that excited. Erik has other ideas. The only time he stops barking is when he's concentrating or sleeping, basically. But he's only a puppy after all. He's getting there through some other things we're doing. Leslie McDevitt doesn't mention flirt poles. I don't see why there should be a "proper" use of them. They are just a toy. Is there a "proper" use for a ball? You have to be sensible you don't let them hurt themselves, but same goes for any game. The flirt pole is not a tool to teach anything in particular, Erny. It is what you make it. Not really any different to a tug toy or a frisbee. Provided the "pay" was the chase for a dog, they would work for the chase alone, and I don't think they'd get tired of it if you primed them well to begin with. I have no interest in doing that, though. Erik loves catching it and so I let him a lot of the time. Plus it's adorable to watch him do his victory lap, parading it around.

That's just a clip. He's often too quick for me and catches it on his own. That's fine by me; he has fun and that's the main thing. Sometimes I catch it to circumvent the victory lap Erik does every time he gets it. What's the purpose? :nahnah: It's fun? What's the purpose of any drivey game? In a more specific sense, Erik is practicing default downs at the moment because I love them and I'm trying to teach him to think through excitement. This is kind of Leslie McDevitt's off-switch game, but today Erik was a bit too "on" and if I wanted to practice that it would have been smart to have left the flirt pole behind and used something less intensely exciting. The off-switch game is played by doing something exciting until just before your dog loses it, then disengaging, waiting for a default behaviour, and then starting the game again. This was going great for us until Erik got the hang of it and now he just downs without thinking about it most of the time, which kind of defeats the purpose of the game as I understand it. So I've started introducing other commands to ask him instead of just waiting for his down. He was doing all right this afternoon, but it was so not the exercise as it's meant to be done. ETA, you know Erny, as far as I can tell it's generally held that you shouldn't let your dog catch the flirt pole toy, at least not much, because the more they chase it and ALMOST catch it the more they want to catch the damn thing. I could do that with Erik now and it would probably go like that, but when I first started I reckon he would have lost interest if I hadn't let him catch it.

A .

We have the turtle egg baby. I got it from The Vet Shed. They have the other puzzle ones as well. Kivi likes it, but only if you help him get the eggs out. ETA I got one of those bottle buddies from Pets in the Park. They overcharged me for postage and then reimbursed me with a $6 gift voucher without asking me. :D I said no, I won't accept your gift voucher. I want the extra money refunded. Seemed a bit rude.

McDevitt's article is called "But he only plays at home!" and was apparently in the July 2005 issue of Clean Run magazine. I'll post a video of Erik playing with his flirt pole tonight. I've got an older one, but today's is way more exciting. :D

The dvd is available, but it's a little pricey. The book is great. I just finished reading it. I liked her idea of reframing stressful situations as a game. It seems amazing how many problems can be very quickly overcome if you change a situation into a known exercise that is fun and rewarding. She talks about problem exercises in agility and overcoming big hangups just through inserting the problem into a structure the dog is comfortable with. One of her examples is a dog that can't handle a start line stay and she just puts the mat there and the dog goes "Oh, we're playing that game. I love that game!" and relaxes enough to be able to do it. One of her dogs loved to play tug, but was so distractable he only needed to hear a noise from the hot water system to run off and forget about playing. She started playing with him for ten seconds, then dismissing him on a break to do doggy things, then playing again. He started opting out of his breaks and deciding to stay with her instead and the more she did it the less distractable he became. I think I would invest in the dvd if I had a dog that was more reactive.

I dunno... failing handler information, I think if they tug at home with gusto but not anywhere else they just aren't as comfortable with their surroundings. Leslie McDevitt wrote an article once about dogs that only play at home. She recommends teaching them to relax outside the yard using things like the Look at That! game and also teaching them a word to tell them they are about to have a freaking awesome game of tug or something. Getting something highly motivational to play with definitely helps, though! I have a sheepy tug for Erik that I have just tied to a long ribbon because as much as he adores it when he's in the mood, he wasn't always leaping all over the place for it like he does for his flirt pole. I figured chasing it along the ground seems to get him going like no one's business, so now the sheepy tug goes for little dances along the ground. Erik alternated between carrying it and chasing it most of the way around the block this morning. And every time I got it off him he was ready to do backflips for it. Nice! Actually, I think he did do a backflip for it unintentionally.... not so nice. Oh, all that reminds me that flirt poles ROCK. I know someone with a high drive dog that had to put the flirt pole away for good because it was way too exciting. Even my low drive Lapphund will chase the flirt pole (although for two months he was too scared of it to go anywhere near it).

I had no problems with it on the PS3. My mother played it on their PS2. Apparently we only have Playstation dvd players in my family.

Has there been any studies done on it? I had a quick look last week and found some heinous thing about running Beagle pups for a month and then killing them and looking at their knees. I found something that suggested running them a lot on concrete or for long periods caused moderately bad stuff, and something else that said there was no difference, but they were only short term studies, and surely not many people are running their dogs for four hours a day? No one seemed to know what happens long-term. Or in real life.

Levi, I bought it from Dogwise, which is a US based online store. It was pretty cheap. I'd offer to post you mine to borrow, but I needs it! *hugs the RRR* There is a booklet that is even cheaper, but I was told to get the dvd and I'm glad I did. It's very clear and instructional.

How come we are told to limit a pup's jumping around on and off things when presumably wild pups and other predatory youngsters would be leaping on and off things all day long, building their muscles and coordination? How come we aren't told to limit the exercise kids have? Are dog joints different to the joints of other terrestrial mammals?

I have rewarded Erik with a brush down his back. He goes weak at the knees. It's hilarious! I have also rewarded him by picking him up for a happy hug, just speaking to him, raw sweet potato skins, and rabbit poo. He will pretty much work for anything.

I'm always banging on about Leslie Nelson's Really Reliable Recall, so I thought I'd just add another RRR related brag. My mum told me this afternoon that she's been using the method to teach her extremely prey-driven and independent Vallhund to come when called. This is something he has been routinely ignoring for most of his life, and he's about 7. The other day he was in the yard with a frog in his mouth - a state that would normally involve running around trying to catch him because he won't come for anything when he has an animal. But for the first time in his life, upon hearing his recall he dropped the frog and recalled! This is the dog that busts out of the yard to take himself for kangaroo hunts, has a 7 year history of ignoring recalls when he doesn't feel like coming, and will stand in the hated rain for three days trying to catch a rat in the wood pile in the yard. I for one am impressed. I never thought I'd see the day when he would not only come when he was in hunting mode, but leave the prey behind. The first thing I said was "So what have you been doing with him? Or was it a fluke?" Such a skeptical daughter I am.

McDevitt says it teaches them to think through excitement and self-regulate. It makes sense to me. It's not like just rewarding a particular behaviour when he offers it. If Erik wants something he has to offer a down for it, no matter how excited he is. If I don't cue a down but just stand there and wait, then he has to calm himself down enough to think about what he's going to do. McDevitt stresses that they should be worked under threshold and you gradually increase the criteria. Erik stays in his down until he is formally released, so he can do a wait in a down. He can even down for his dinner, now, which is great seeing as three weeks ago he was barking hysterically and running around biting things when dinner was being prepared. Now that I think about it, we've made quite a bit of progress. We still have work to do, though. He can be a bit excitable.

"Relaxed" is the problem. I've just started with Leslie McDevitt's version from Control Unleashed. She plays a game with them for 30 seconds or so and then takes the toy away and signals a sit or down and then plays again when they do. I've been teaching Erik a default down, so that's coming in handy. He was already decent at it from NILIF, but we have a lot of work to build him up. He has taken the default down on board and is doing lovely downs at the door when I come home without prompting. Cutie. He's like "Will you open the door faster if I lie down?" We are doing Doggy Zen as well, but I think it's getting a bit lost in everything else we're doing. We don't practice it enough!

Kivi I didn't have to teach. Erik... not so much. He is currently learning that default downs without prompting get him a lot of things he very much likes.

This afternoon Erik was playing tug and I noticed he had a little blood in his mouth. I had a look and it looked like one of his lower canines was bleeding a little around the gum. It stopped bleeding pretty quickly, but when I gave him his chicken wings for dinner he couldn't chew up the larger wing bone. I had another look and couldn't see anything obvious. Any suggestions?

Feed them separately so they can't physically get to each other's bowls. Sometimes a little management goes a loooong way. It's not fair on your dogs to make them feel like they are competing over food. We know there's plenty to go around, but they don't.

Well, for what it's worth, I've found default sits to be incredibly useful, both in training loose leash walking and in dealing with high excitement on walks. It doesn't take that long to condition a sit or down to be so strong your dog does it even when they are very excited. Erik was offering sits to get out of his puppy pen when he was a moment earlier jumping up and down yelping in excitement three days after I got him. Given, he was a puppy and didn't have any bad habits to break, and he's also very clever, but with enough work around low distractions you can do it with an older dog as well. Strengthening known commands is pretty easy stuff, and even with a dog like Kivi who meanders through life with his head in the clouds, they do pick it up pretty fast. Especially if you reward the crap out of it all the time. I say don't be afraid to use a really high reward rate if your dog is losing interest in something. Some dogs don't tolerate frustration well, and if you don't relieve the frustration of training by working them up to longer periods without rewards by first rewarding them as fast as you can, how do you expect them to learn to like working with you? To make it easier, count in your head when you ask him something. If he does it, reward after a second. Next time, reward after two seconds. Next time, three. If he can't wait that long, go back to one. You gotta read your dog and work them up in baby steps if you want to succeed and if you want them to be good at something. As far as the excitement (and LLW) goes, like I said, I like rock solid sits. They often seem to work when nothing else penetrates. Kivi was going through a period about a month ago where he was jumping up and down barking when he saw another dog while he was on leash. It waited it out a couple of times until he was able to do a sit, and then he was offering sits spontaneously when he saw another dog. The brilliant thing about that is that when they are in that sit, you have a decent chance of keeping them from losing their minds AND getting their attention back. I used default sits as a stop-gap measure while I worked on Kivi's heel. At the moment, he can sit until the dog is within sniffing range, and he can heel past a dog on the other side of the street. When I started, the dogs on the other side of the street were what really got him going. I leaned on sits while teaching both my dogs LLW in much the same way, but my boys aren't really natural pullers, so I don't know how well that would translate to a seasoned puller (if at all). I am in favour of the harness most of the time and the martingale when you're training LLW. There's a method called Silky Leash that does the same thing. Dogs are excellent at differentiating, because they pick up cues that we often don't, because unlike them, we are good at generalising. Kivi knows weekend mornings are an acceptable time to jump onto the bed with us, but weekday mornings are not. He does not know what day of the week it is. He just knows that when my partner lets him out and then goes back to bed, cuddles are on.

I'm reading Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt at the moment. She uses an exercise called "Look at That!" where she turns looking at things that are worrisome into a game. She marks and rewards them when they look at the worrisome thing and when they hear the mark they turn back to the handler for their reward. She works them under threshold and slowly builds them up. It seems it often doesn't take long at all. Once you teach them to look at things for a reward, they start taking shortcuts and doing really fast glances and then staring at the handler for their reward. I've heard a lot of positive things about that game.