corvus

We put out dogs in the boot of the Forester for about 3 days until OH put an end to it. Our last car was written off when someone rear-ended it. OH kept looking at the dogs in the back and picturing what would happen to them if we got rear-ended again. Back seats are safer. We have a $40 one from some large chain pet store that is quite good. I have to get something else, though, because Erik gets bored on long trips and amuses himself by wriggling down between the hammock and the front seats. It's kind of dangerous. He gets himself strung up because he'll still be attached to his seatbelt. Doesn't matter how short I make the seatbelt he still gets down there. A couple of times he's managed to get the seatbelt clip caught on the edge of the hammock and got out of it. I've looked around, but have basically drawn a blank. Looks like a backseat buddy and seatbelts attached to the child restraint points for us.

Vallhund legs should be longer than corgis', and I don't think they should be any heavier. I think if I seriously wanted a small agility competitor to win with I wouldn't go for a Vallhund (or a corgi, for that matter). I'd go with something taller. Obedience is another matter. Vallhunds are good fun to train in general, though. They are crazy smart. A little bit spookily smart, actually. Probably too smart for their own good. I still think Tibetan Terrier would be a good pick.

How would such a response overcome an instinctive response hard wired into the dog, triggered by movement and selectively bred for for generations. That's what you're up against trying to call a sighthound off prey. Theoretically it's as knee-jerk a reaction as chasing a moving object. Hopefully, you practise it more often than you practise racing off after prey animals. As I said before, it works for the uber prey-driven dog I know, even when he's hunting. But the thing is, I reckon some dogs are easier to condition than others. Erik always responds to something that has been conditioned with whipcrack speed. He doesn't give himself time to think. Kivi... not so much. For all that conditioned responses are supposed to be a matter of the dog not actually getting around to thinking about whether to respond or not, Kivi never got that memo. He is a steady dude and reacts to most things slowly. He also doesn't get as excited as Erik. In general, he doesn't pay attention to things the way Erik does. I would say his recall is as conditioned as it's ever going to get in that MOST times he doesn't think about it. But you know, every now and then the head comes up at the recall and that's all that happens. About a month ago Kivi ran off on the hunt for a decaying possum carcass. He was recalled after he had found it and he got as far as recalling about 3 metres before he went "Wait. Dead possum." and went back to it. Erik recalled away from it (twice) and spat it out and left it when told to leave it (twice - in retrospect, throwing the carcass into the swamp was not smart). Kivi has more than a year of practise on both conditioned behaviours over Erik, and has been conditioned far more rigorously than Erik has as well. Erik just hasn't needed that level of repetition. And Kivi's conditioned responses deteriorate FAST if not practised. Erik's don't. So I don't think it's quite as simple as conditioning. Mind you, it's the best thing we've got.

Hehe, as I said in your last thread, I think Shelties would be a good pick. I met a Tibetan Terrier recently and thought she was freaking awesome. Very agile and fast and quite outgoing. I chatted to her owners (while she played chase with Erik, my Vallhund) and they said she was quite full-on and could be a bit independent, but otherwise lots of fun and quite sweet. I also think Pulis are really cool, but the coat care is a bit daunting. And I don't think they are as friendly. Erik is starting agility training in June. He's done his pre-agility course and ran rings around most of the dogs there in terms of drive. He would be ace at obedience as well. He is ace at anything, really. He is very easy to train and stupidly confident and outgoing. And game! Geez, he will try anything. He throws himself into everything he does and he is fast. I love him as a small dog because he is very strong and robust for his size, but he's still a herder and he's a hardcore little thing. He's a cattle dog as far as he's concerned. Mini Poodles seem like a pretty fun small performance dog as well. If I wasn't getting a Vallhund for some reason, I'd go for a Tibetan Terrier. I was very taken with the one I met. I hate terrier personalities, but I think I could cope with a TT. Then again, I doubt a TT would give cuddles that are anywhere near as good as Erik's cuddles. :cool: He's like a child! It's madness!

I think a strong chase drive/low chase trigger is more problematic to recalls than a strong prey drive per se. Once any animal is running things get tricky. They are pretty much committed to some course of action (flee or chase) and my feeling is it's hard to somehow interrupt that level of commitment. I don't think the level of engagement in prey driven activities is where the difference lies. I think it is in what the dog was bred for. I read a paper a while ago about Elkhounds attacking sheep. The point was made (suggested?) that dogs bred to hunt small game didn't pay a lot of attention to sheep, whereas dogs bred to hunt large game didn't pay so much attention to small game.

This is one of the reasons why I don't much like talking about prey drive. The most highly prey driven dog I know is certainly no working line Malinois by any stretch of the imagination. He is lazy, only goes for things he thinks he can get, and has little interest in games of tuggy and whatnot. But I have seen this little 10kg dog rip a hole in a garage wall to get to a possum he knew was trapped there. When he hunts, he is constantly problem-solving. He doesn't have a strong chase drive. He is 7 years old and has recently been taught a Really Reliable Recall. It is a known fact that he will now break off a hunt with the prey in sight to recall. He will, in fact, drop prey he has in his mouth to recall. My thought is that because of his mode/method of hunting, it is surprisingly easy to reach him even when he's off in "about to make a kill" land. He's still thinking. With all that problem-solving he is quite aware of his surroundings even when very focused on hunting. I don't have any experience trying to teach a hound to recall, but my family had a whippet cross when I was a kid. I once saw her chase a wallaby almost right into me. I had a good 20 seconds of her in sight to scream until I was blue in the face and she didn't so much as bat an eyelid. As far as I could tell she couldn't hear me, but Kivi used to be the same when trying to force small dogs to play with him and now he does hear me in those situations. With practise I think you can increase a dog's awareness of recalls in very arousing situations. I think it is not so much a matter of drive as a matter of awareness.

Kivi Tarro recently decided he wasn't goign to jump into the car anymore. Got him checked out at the vets and she put him on some pain killers for a week to see if it made any difference. It didn't, so we assumed it was behavioural. I honestly think he is a lazy sod, but it helps to pay attention to what is already in the car. He can't see what he's jumping into up there and he gets nervous about jumping up if Erik is already in the car. Erik gets in his way. Since I cottoned on to that one he is much more willing to jump into the car, but he still refuses if he's had a big run at the park and is tired. If it were me, I'd just start paying him to get into the car. Might find that he's more willing if he gets a treat when he does it. What else are you gonna do? Leave him there and drive off? I know someone who used to do that to her Staffy. She'd leave her running around the bush chasing wildlife unsupervised right by a busy road and come back and get her an hour later. It's a miracle nothing happened to that dog. I have a little outspoken dog who thinks he shouldn't have to do anything he doesn't want to, and I find it quite amazing how quickly he decides he wants to do something he was a moment ago vehemently against when there's roast chicken inolved. Put it on cue, reward it, then phase the reward out if you want. That's what I'd do.

Well, given you can train an awesomely powerful "leave it" with a clicker, that's a good start to leaving the cat alone. Or there are a bunch of incompatible behaviours you can teach with a clicker. However, when it comes to aversion training you can't do that with a clicker. I've been thinking about teaching Erik to leave the bunny alone when she's out. He leaves her alone when she's in her cage, but for some reason he gets tremendously excited about the bunny being out of her cage. He doesn't chase her, just barks at her and she hates it. I've been thinking of using her as a distraction during clicker training and teach him to go to his mat when he starts getting interested in the bunny. I think it's possible to condition an incompatible behaviour for these things. Especially if you reward with the right reward for the situation. If I were trying to train a dog that likes to chase cats to not chase cats I'd start with training the dog to go to their mat when they get excited by cats and reward with a tug game. I've no idea if it would work or not. Erik gets excited by cats out on the street, and maybe 60% of the time he'd respond by turning to me for a tug game. The rest of the time I would prompt him with his tug game cue and I'd have his full attention. I don't see why I couldn't teach him to go to his mat when he saw a cat if I rewarded it big enough, but that's him. And I haven't tried it.

I don't really remember, Cosmolo. I do know that it took time to hit on the sit and slow "heel" to the nearest toy. I don't remember how long, but it wasn't the way I started out. I would in future, though! It worked quite well, and Erik's sits were easily strong enough at 11 weeks. Having said that, I have pretty high tolerance for bratty behaviour. Erik was bad, but my memory of just how bad is hazy now that he has grown out of it. I have a feeling I tolerated it where other people wouldn't have, and I don't think it's wrong to not tolerate it. People just have different levels of tolerance is all. We don't have kiddies and Erik is quite reserved with strange people, so we can afford to be tolerant. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that. I was just talking about restraining a pup when they are struggling. It doesn't really matter in what context that occurs to me. If you take a pup by the collar and they throw a tantrum, then you basically have to hold on and wait it out, but that doesn't mean it was a good thing to do. It's no better IMO than holding a puppy until they give up the fight to get them used to handling. Did I say that? In case I did, Erik did grow out of mouthing, but Kivi didn't. Kivi is the only dog I know that still mouths as an adult, though. He has amazing control. He hoons around the dog park with the tip of Erik's tail in his mouth and Erik doesn't even know about it. He mouths considerably less now than he did as a puppy, even so. Thanks for reiterating what I said in your own words, PF? Mrs RB, you do know that pressing a pup's lip against their teeth hurts them, right? There are plenty of aversives or interruptors you can use that don't depend on hurting puppies. You can even train a positive interruptor. The clicker can be used as an interruptor.

I think the limiting factor is the dog's ability to hear you under distraction. Erik is way more easily distracted than Kivi, but he is far more likely to hear a recall. If he hears it he comes. Kivi is fine around everyday distractions. He will recall away from other dogs and he'll break off a chasing game to recall, but last week for example he discovered there is a yard at the back of the dog park with two dogs in it that wanted to kill him. He was very confused and aroused as he stood there trying to decide how to react to these dogs trying to dig out of their yard to get to him, and he didn't hear the first two recalls. He heard the third one and came. The other thing is that I think more independent breeds never quite get a reflexive recall. There are times when Kivi just thinks "hold on, maybe I don't want to recall" whereas Erik comes without hesitation. I'm beginning to think that much of it is an awareness issue. Erik is hyper aware of his surroundings whereas Kivi usually has his head in the clouds. I wouldn't say either of them has 100% recall as they are animals after all with their own agenda and will. You never know what they might quite suddenly and unexpectedly decide to do. Kivi's is up around 95% and Erik's would be around 98%. Occasionally Erik starts coming and then stops to see if Kivi is behind him. He gets all anxious if he discovers Kivi isn't coming as well, and will go back for him sometimes.

How cool! Do you have videos? I "clicker trained" my hare to target and stand on his hind legs, but I used a visual marker because he seemed to respond to it better. He isn't all that great at sounds. My first foray into clicker training was with my rescue bunny, who at the time was less tame than my wild hare was. She wouldn't let anyone touch her. I got so far with various markers, but it wasn't until I tried the clicker that we finally broke through that last wall and she let me touch something other than her nose. She is now a lap bunny and lies upside down in my arms while I trim her nails. I still find it hard to believe she has come so far from that jumpy, timid rabbit we started out with. I don't know why a clicker worked where nothing else had. No idea. But it did something different.

How do you know? What do you suppose makes the puppy give up on the struggling front and relax? How can you say it wasn't that they tried everything they could think of to get away and none of it worked so they gave up completely? I'm not saying don't do it, I'm saying setting yourself up to have to do it is sloppy training. If they kick and struggle it's because they hate the restraint. Their little hearts will be pounding and they will stop thinking. I question they can learn anything operantly from doing that. They can certainly get used to it, but I fail to see why you would bother when you can get them used to it through counter-conditioning. Okay, fair enough. Don't really agree after my experiences with Erik in particular, but maybe he's a freak. I still think he has an over-sensitive reward system. He gets manic about rewards. I don't either, but if you shrug off once or twice of one thing, it's just that little bit easier to shrug off another one or two of something similar. In my mind you have to be committed to your aims. You can't be committed if you're willing to make compromises without hitting yourself over the head with a rolled up newspaper and saying "Bad trainer!" I thought about this long and hard when Erik was a little guy, because he didn't much like being handled and he kicked up a real stink about it. I asked myself why he would go still when struggling harder and harder failed to work. I asked myself why he behaved so stressed by being held against his will, and why he seemed most stressed after he had stopped fighting. It seemed to me that by holding him until he relaxed I was teaching him he couldn't control this and that's why he was stressed about it. That's my interpretation. So restraining him until he goes still remains a compromise of my aims to me.

I would. I've lost two pets so far and didn't take either body home. As far as I'm concerned, once the life has gone from their body I don't want anything to do with it. I have a box of things to remember Penny by, and I have photos and videos of her, and I have all the good times and bad times my family and I shared with her. What is a body? Nothing to me. Nothing at all. Everything that was Penny is in my head, now. Everything that was Penny left her little body along with her last breath. I don't know what happened to her body and I don't even think about it. I never wonder. That's me, though. You just have to be comfortable with whatever you decide. There's no right or wrong answer.

Aww, he sounds like heaps of fun! I remember when Erik was like that. You should have seen him when I started wearing sheepskin ugg boots come winter. He could not resist them! He'd bear hug my ankles and try to maul the slippers. One thing I discovered with my herding puppies is that sometimes when you stop as soon as they start biting it's a reward for them. That's what they wanted you to do. Their instincts tell them to stop the moving object. Biting worked! It wasn't until I realised this that we started to make some real progress with Kivi's ankle biting. I figured if he wanted to grab something so bad I'd get a toy for him to hold onto. That seemed to satisfy him, mostly. I could run around the oval with him and he'd hold onto the toy instead of my leg. Erik was a bit of an ankle-biting monster. With him he would just get so wound up that he couldn't contain himself and would just have to grab something. I taught him a really strong sit. Whenever he got crazy and looked like he was about to go for my ankles I told him to sit and that would interrupt him. Then I'd tell him to heel and walk slooooooowly to the nearest toy, ask for a sit again, then throw the toy for him. He grew out of the ankle biting, but man, he was a little terror for a while there. A couple of times he would bite so hard you'd just have to grab him in the interests of keeping your skin intact. I'm not keen on punishment of biting puppies for one big reason, and that is that biting puppies are normally quite aroused and I have seen them react to a punishment in that state by getting growly and biting harder. I've had it happen to me. It's not fun and I don't think it helps matters in the long run. I guess a water sprayer is one of the best ways you could go about it provided the dog doesn't actually think it's fun, but I'd far rather distract and redirect. Plus, it's a good opportunity to practise sits and heels in an aroused state. That rock solid sit came in handy in so many different situations with Erik. I'm in love with rock solid downs as well. Time outs can sometimes be rough on puppies. Just make sure he isn't getting really upset. I think holding a dog until their tantrum peters out is just poor training. I've done it myself and regretted it EVERY SINGLE TIME. It's what you do when you've misjudged what your dog can handle and pushed them too far and are now faced with the decision of letting them find out that kicking and struggling works or trying not to get scratched to pieces until they give up. I'm not very interested in basically forcing a puppy to realise they are helpless. I want them to choose to behave, not learn that there's nothing they can do about it so they may as well put up with it. I want them to believe they can control the things that happen to them so they are confident and get into the habit of trying to figure out what I want from them so they can get what they want. Massage is excellent and I don't know how we would have got through those early months with Erik without it. It really made a difference. Kongs and pigs ears were also very helpful. Teaching self control is a good idea and it's easy to do it with tug.

Personally, I think you're reading too much into it. I think that often when dogs that are presumed housetrained urinate inside it is in response to stress or anxiety. That goes for marking especially. To me, getting a new animal is a prime candidate for causing the kind of anxiety that results in urinating indoors, even if they are getting along. I would just give them all a chance to settle in, make sure Gus is getting plenty of attention from you, and see if it keeps happening. Other reaons are illness or in Erik's case, being a pansy about going out in the rain. OR, another animal has gone in the same place. Sure the kitty didn't go there?

To me, it's the difference between clicker training and training with a clicker. I used verbal markers before clicker training, but I was using them differently. Rapid fire and high reward rates didn't exist for me with verbal markers. It wasn't until I started talking to clicker trainers and using one myself that I started to understand what the aim was. It's a lot more than a bridge. It's a philosophy. It's a state of mind in your dog. It's the speed, energy, creativity and anticipation that becomes a part of it. And it leads on to other things that really open up the doors in positive training methods. I've learnt more about reward selection and placement and timing from clicker trainers than any other kind of trainer, including those that use them opportunistically. It's also taught me to really pay attention to the details. As I said above, it's not just a name. It really is a system. You certainly can do it with something other than a click. I use a clicker with Erik and a verbal marker ("ping") with Kivi. There's no difference in a low distraction environment, and no difference for Kivi because he's so easy to get focus from anyway, but I think I made the right decision in keeping the clicker for Erik. As Steven Lindsay pointed out in his seminar, there's a startle effect to the clicker because it's a sharp sound that cuts across distractions. I find that there's no noise I can make that is as quick and clear as a click. It's hard to roll out a "ping" and a treat a second. I tried to make it shorter with "yep" or "pip", but then it's not as clear.

That looks gorgeous. We'll have to try that one next.

David Vella doesn't work on weekends afaik.

How fun are yours, tlc! I love how they all just get in there together. The boys were entertaining a lady down at the dog park this aftenoon, running around acting like hooligans. I guess they aren't that noisy when they play and mostly chase and wrestle. This lady was watching them play and laughing and she said "They are like brothers." It's so true. :D My previous dog never had a relationship quite so close with another dog. She always had "yard mates", but Kivi and Erik are "brothers". I read somewhere that play bows are more common between dogs that don't know each other so well. I have found that to be true with my boys. They never play bow to each other, but they do to dogs they don't know. Even the regulars at the park they see often they don't usually play bow to. It's like once they get to know each other they don't need let their playmate know whatever comes next is all in fun. When you think about it, it's like the way you don't joke around much with people you don't know, but you might joke and then say "just kidding" to break the ice. Once you get to know them you don't have to say "just kidding".

Nah, you need to teach her "recalls are awesome!" The reason why RRR works so well is because you reward them BIG every single time you recall them. So it doesn't take them long to realise when you start handing out roast beef that paying attention to that recall is a really good idea. Our dogs recall as fast as they can because they know it means they are getting something freaking delicious. The other thing that I think is super useful in getting dogs to be reliable off leash is to reward them for check ins. Our dogs kind of swan in every few minutes and we pop them treats and tell them to go and play again. It doesn't take long to make this a habit if you're consistent about popping treats every time they choose to check in. We also ask them to do tricks or play with them, and Kivi's favourite thing is to amble up and attach himself to your leg until you give him a treat. It's all about making spending time with you an attractive choice and encouraging them to pay attention to where you are. In the meantime, put her on a long line or only let her off in fenced areas.

This place looks fantastic but did I read correct they charge $16 per dog? If yes is this for food or can you bring your own and not pay the $16. I have four dogs so it would be cheaper to not bring them if I had to pay $16 each The $16 does not include food. It's kind of like paying for the right to let your filthy, wet dog go and sleep on the bed with you. They get quite dirty running around on the farm and swimming in the river, so I guess it's to cover the extra cleaning. The rooms are pretty small. I wouldn't want to try to cram 4 dogs in. Not sure about the cabins as we've never stayed there.

It's one of the perks of having two young dogs. Kivi was nearly 18 months when we got Erik, and he needed a friend. There's another video on YouTube of Erik playing tug with Kivi's body parts the day we got him. He was young enough that he was still a bit of a kid himself, and he's a very friendly dude, so the two of them just bonded and they have no barriers. They rarely grump at each other, and when they do it's couched in play. A bit of super rough play seems to allow a safe dissipation of any frustration they have with each other. I love watching all the ways they have to keep the peace. It's really evolved over time as well. Erik is a little firecracker, but Kivi is very touchy feely and he loves it. I have lots of photos of this kind of thing: Erik has really good instincts playing with bigger dogs. When it gets too rough he lies low on the ground and crawls away so he doesn't trigger another chase. But with Kivi when he wants to stop he just stops running and turns to face Kivi and Kivi pulls up short. Often they have a little shake together and go back to more sedate play. It's really fascinating to watch the way they treat different dogs. In the video, Erik and Kivi's friend Max does a little eye-stalk. Erik learnt that off him and does it all the time to Kivi, and he does it sometimes to Max, but those are the only two he does it to. I think that's really interesting. He must have some sense of the intensity of that action to the dog on the receiving end to be so careful who he does it to. Rough play puts a big smile on my face. My two love it, so I do.

When we went through this last year I said "Look what we do to ourselves. We bring these animals into our lives and love them with all our might and inevitably they die all too soon and we are heartbroken and then we go out and get another one and do it all again." Why do we do it? Because it's worth it! It's worth every tear. Will be thinking of you.

Riverwood Downs! It's so dog friendly they have a dining room at the restaraunt where dogs are allowed. We stayed there over Easter and the dogs were allowed in the room with us. You can also camp and there are dog-friendly cabins. It's on a farm up near Gloucester. The only problem is a LOT of people go there with their dogs. Some of the dogs aren't friendly. But we've only been there when it's super busy and just kept the dogs on leash around the camp sites and we didn't have any problems. It's probably a lot better in quieter times.

Yay! If they get really good at it, you can totally expect them to learn things in under a minute. Erik certainly can. My other dog is a bit slower, but his focus is phenomenal. You literally cannot distract that dog once he's clicker training. We can be in the middle of a busy dog park with dogs trying to wriggle between me and him and he won't take his eyes off my face.