corvus

:D I heard a story about a dog that made friends with a seal. They used to play together. It was a young seal that went its own way at the end of the summer.

Canaan Dog Basenji Akita Tibetan Mastiff Karelian Bear Dog Saluki Puli Finnish Lapphund Swedish Vallhund Leonberger

You know, CW, I was worried Erik would be a brat because Kivi never 'disciplines' him as well. We considered sending him to daycare on his own to learn that you can't just beat up any old dog that thwarts you. But he's only super obnoxious to Kivi. Short of the "PLAY WITH ME!" play bows and barks he does sometimes he is quite good with other dogs. He has started one fight, which he obviously decided was a bad idea once he'd lost it as he's never done it again. And he once fought back after being attacked by a resource guarding dog (who was guarding Kivi). But that's it. For a dog that literally throws himself at Kivi's side, climbs onto his back, wrestles him to the ground, bites his muzzle, legs, ears, and anything else he can get his teeth into, and routinely uses Kivi as his stress-relieving punching bag, not to mention getting whatever he wants by throwing himself at Kivi's face and biting his ruff and feet with much growly noises, he is remarkably nice to strange dogs! He doesn't even try. If they grumble he backs off. Kivi is the only one he'll drive off if I'm playing or training with him. I think you just keep up her socialisation and she'll be all right. Just watch she isn't smarter than Erik and decides to pick all her fights with dogs she can beat. Can't wait to meet her! She sounds like she'll give Erik a run for his money.

You don't need to find a motivator that is better than the stuff he wants to do. My older dog Kivi would absolutely prefer playing with dogs over doing tricks for food treats (and I don't usually use very interesting food treats). With Kivi is was just a matter of repetition. A few times throughout the park visit we'd do less than half a minute of training with him. Make it really easy and reward often and pretty soon he was much keener about training in general and was quite happy to abandon dog play to do some tricks. I think if you gave him a choice of a treat or to play with dogs he would still pick playing with dogs, but the whole training setup has its own value, now, and he just kind of pays attention out of habit. He is totally conditioned. He comes over to us spontaneously at the park drooling because he's sure we're going to give him treats one way or another. My other dog, Erik, is much more excited about new surroundings and for a while there we were lucky to get him to hang around long enough to get a treat at all. I figure if he can't concentrate for more than a second in a dog park then I shouldn't ask it of him and just build him up to more focus gradually. I would just call him, pop him a treat when he looked at me, then dismiss him before he could dismiss himself. If he was more engaged I'd do a few things with him and then dismiss. It seems to be working. A friend of mine likes to say it's better to be the gatekeeper of good things than the one trying to ban the good things all together. Leslie McDevitt also has the "Give Me A Break" game, which involves playing with or training with your dog for, like, 20 seconds, then telling them to go away and do dog things. Sit down and let them run around and be crazy and when they come back on their own, ask for a sit or down and play some more. Story goes the more you play this game the more the dog loses interest in everything around them and would prefer to skip their "be a dog" breaks to spend time with you. McDevitt pioneered it with her own dog, a terrier (JRT? Can't remember) who could not concentrate on anything for more than a couple of seconds. Any noise at all would distract him.

Most dogs can tell the difference between a play growl and an aggressive growl. On the weekend Kivi meandered over to a GSD to greet her, but before he got there she started growling deep in her chest and he smartly thought better of it and came sidling back to me, shooting submissive signals back at the GSD. However I do think it's a bit intense for dogs that don't know each other to play growl. Sometimes they get right into it, but some dogs are a bit intimidated by bouncy, excited strangers that want to play with them. I would be too if I wasn't into being buffeted and wrestled with by complete strangers. I think Emmy will learn to regulate herself as she gets older. Erik still kinda gets in dogs' faces bouncing around barking and growling sometimes, as you would have seen. He went through a small dog loving phase and would do that to just about every small dog he met. Thankfully he learnt that it doesn't often result in play. He is improving.

*flame suite on* Here's my thought: how are the dogs he is rushing taking it? Does he know them? I'm more concerned that my dogs are not upsetting other dogs than that they are living by some pre-ordained human interpretation of dog civil order or some such. My dogs aren't wild about being rushed by strangers (although they handle it well) and rarely do it to dogs they don't know, but it's all on for dogs they do know, and they have no issue with their pals rushing up to them and greeting them like long lost brothers. If it's only the first few dogs you meet, why don't you try changing your park routine a little? We often practise a recall or play a game in the first few minutes of arriving at the park to take the edge off the crazies. It definitely helps. You can teach a really solid "whip around" with rewards. I think Leslie McDevitt covers it in her book Control Unleashed. The idea is that whenever you call their name when they are moving away from you, you reward their turning towards you so that over time they respond quite reliably to their name by whipping around and orienting to you. It's a great way to distract a dog from something it's about to do. You could also try teaching him that he doesn't get to talk to dogs until he sits first or something. I have my doubts about this one, because if the problem is he's excited, then how can you say he won't find the anticipation of release to visit the doggies even MORE exciting and thus kind of shoot yourself in the foot. My thought is that it's better to try to address the excitement rather than the behaviour that results from the excitement. I sort of have a "training could happen any time" policy at the park so that whenever I call they think I might be going to get them to perform tricks or something. They come over and hang around like a bad smell until I tell them to go and play again. It's good because it's really easy to get their attention if they are excited about another dog for some reason. I can be like "Hey guys, wanna do a trick for me??" and they're like "Tricks?? Yeah!" and they completely forget about the other dogs in the park. They can channel all their excitement into training for a few moments and then when I dismiss them it's a bit like a reset button. They have usually forgotten what they were doing and meander around at a trot looking for new things rather than zeroing in on something and getting all bouncy again. I also find heel practise is good for calming down excited dogs. It gets them focusing on you and they relax a bit.

Nervous animals thrive on predictability. I have rituals for everything I do with my hare. Same words, same tone, same walk, same sequence of behaviours, same speed. He can relax if he can predict what's going to happen next, even if it will be something that will make him want to run away. If he's touchy today I slow it down and talk more softly. Thankfully, even horribly shy dogs are a lot less nervous than a bold hare. The other thing nervous animals (any animal, for that matter) love is a sense of control. This IMO is why NILIF is so good for them. It gives them the sense that they can control the things that happen to them. Obviously that's not all it does, but I reckon they like that. All the other stuff Erny said is gold. Eyes and "regard" are intense for a lot of animals. Not watching them and ignoring them is always a great place to start, but sometimes it's also a good idea to be a teensy bit sensitive and not make any sudden movements or big noises while you're ignoring your fearful animal.

Thanks everyone. We're talking about people you think are especially good with animals, whether they are in the public eye or not. Thanks for the abstract, WnH. Very interesting! I think that people with good animal skills tend to be more flexible. I've seen a lot of dog trainers that have a few methods they prefer and just keep applying them and if it doesn't work they just kind of apply them harder. It's pretty cool to see behaviourists apply different things with different animals and rarely have to try something else because their first approach is usually effective.

I think it depends on what your long-term plans are and how you think she's doing. Kivi went to commercial doggy daycare twice a week for several months because he had lots of adolescent energy and a desperate need to expend it playing. We only stopped it when my work arrangements changed and I was at home most days. Then we got Erik and he didn't need it anymore. The more time I spend with Kivi the more time he wants to spend with me. When I went back to full-time work in the city it took him only about a week to settle into the old routine and he was fine, but now I'm back at home again for 3 days a week and he's turned into Mr Clingy again. I think that he is not a dog I would want to leave on his own a lot, but having said that, he copes. Sorry, that's all pretty vague. What I'm trying to say is that I think you judge your dog's personality and how they are coping and do what you can to make them happy. If you want Luuka to get used to being on her own, I'd do what Golden Rules suggested and gently phase out the "daycare". With Kivi we always planned to get another dog eventually and daycare was "until he doesn't need it anymore", which translated to until he has a puppy of his own.

That is good advice, SSM. A lot of people think I don't listen. I do, I just have to figure things out for myself sometimes to believe it.

Erik is a wuss about getting his precious little pawses wet and abruptly decided that why bother going through all that discomfort when he could just go inside? My answer to that was "Because I have cookies and you don't get one until you water the grass rather than the carpet." Took him about two days of me standing out in the yard with him at night until he went for him to catch on and now we no longer have this problem. At least it was quick and easy to fix.

How do you tell if someone is thinking like an animal? I was reading one of Temple Grandin's books and she was describing how she would notice things animals noticed because she would think like them. I don't think like an animal the way she does in the slightest, but I still notice a lot of the things she mentions because I watch where animals are looking. What's the difference between thinking like an animal and having a good eye for detail or patterns, for example? I always liked watching Kelly Marks on tv. Whatever that X factor that some people have with animals is, she definitely has it. It impressed me that she could go from all gentle, careful desensitisation and counter conditioning to giving the horse a boot with the same animal and just overcome some residual hangup the horse had. How did she know when it was appropriate to switch tactics so suddenly? She never messed around trying things that didn't work. She would change her approach quite wildly for different horses without any real explanation and it always worked.

Aww, it's sad. My old girl got so narky in her last year or so. I couldn't blame her. She was old and sore and couldn't see or hear well. She had cataracts. She was starting to go a bit senile, but she wasn't attacking as a result of that. The pain from her arthritis was, I think, a much bigger deal. We had a puppy at the time. He was very good with her, but she was outrageously sensitive about her personal space. He wasn't allowed to pass within 50cm of her. She would snap at me and OH because it hurt, but not at the vet or anyone else. Dogs are such stoics. I kinda felt privelidged she was snapping at me. Her last winter was quite hard on her and we cut it short because she wasn't coping with the cold. Lots of blankets and heat packs made her happier. I'd make her a little blanket coccoon and put a hot wheat pack down her spine and over her hip.

You know, I've heard of people using e-collars on shy dogs precisely because they were soft dogs. There was an interesting discussion about it. It was suggested that taking the handler component out of training relieved a whole lot of accidental social pressure. Specifically for working breeds, not just any soft dog.

What Addicted to Dogs said. I started training with food and pretty soon started carrying food all the time when we're with the dogs because it's a great reinforcer and I liked being able to reinforce things as they occurred. I still carry food everywhere and my dogs get lots of treats. They are a pleasure to spend time with as a result. I use lots of different rewards, though. I think it's really important to diversify with rewards to avoid a food dependence.

Massage and TTouch. Definitely get a non-slip mat and use a hose with shower head so pup doesn't feel like he's drowning. Use warm water and restrain pup so he can't even try to jump out. That might mean a very short leash tied to something or held close to the collar. If they get a chance to try to jump out I think it's worse for them. They slip and get more frightened. If you bathe often it would be worth a proper counter-conditioning regime. It really doesn't take that long. If I ever thought of it I'd do it with my dogs, only mine aren't much trouble in the bath and I hardly ever wash them anyway so it has never occurred to me. CC is as simple as feeding treats in the bathing area, then progressing gradually to the bath/hose, then with the water running but not touching them, then a little water on the feet and so on and so on. Massively abridged version.

This is purely a guaging sort of exercise. What do the dog whisperers of the world have that others don't? What makes them good at relating to and getting results from dogs? Do you know someone you consider to have a gift with dogs or animals in general? If so, what makes you think they have that gift? E.g. If you believe they read dogs well, what makes you believe that? How is it manifested? Do you think you have this gift? Why/why not?

That's funny. My little Vallhund is a far cry from a sighthound, but sometimes he recalls for the hell of it. He'll come tearing in at full speed, refuse any treats offered, then take off again. I started reinforcing those ones with chasie tug games so he'd at least hang around until told to go play again. I've just introduce ball catches as a new reward. He gets outrageously smug about catching balls. ETA Love Salukis and Borzois. Every time I hear people talk about them I start wanting one again. Maybe one day when I no longer live in the 'burbs. *tells OH to change careers so we don't have to live in a big city*

I think to be reliable you need aversion. OH thinks it's awesome to put Erik's food bowl full of meat right in front of his nose and then go into the next room and watch him drool into his bowl until I tell him to stop being cruel and release the poor thing. It was easy to teach. He also has a good "leave it" that is generalised to most things, but you have to see it before he does. He'll drop it if you tell him leave it, but if he doesn't hear those magic words he'll chow down on all manner of goodies without permission.

It occurs to me that orienting is one of the biggest problems we face in recalls with our two. Dogs that start running when they hear the recall but don't actually know where you are. They usually slow down and falter, looking around for you. Last week Erik recalled to two bemused people 10 metres in front of us and we had to call him again so he knew where we were (yep, another apology there). Maybe we need to play more hide and seek in busy dog parks.

Well said. 100% of what? If your dog never encounters anything that would make a recall a real challenge, and this might be unique for this dog, then you will never know. If we actually want to collect data we have to impose limits. I'm more interested in what a dog does in a particular situation as a measure of results; e.g dogs in my reactive and aggressive dogs classes are measured for recalls away from other dogs, and then I only know the probability of what they will do in similar situations. Anything could happen tomorrow. Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. Maybe I'm a bit weird, but this is why I like recall practise with Kivi. He's a bit of a wild card. I like finding out the 5% of situations in which the recall fails and figuring out why it failed. I like the endless challenge of trying to improve it. Erik isn't anywhere near as interesting and his recall is no real credit to me. I've been downright lazy with his recall training. Videos of recalls from today: - Kivi recalling (slowly!) short of greeting a dog. - Erik's less-than-perfect recall. He lost me. - Long distance recall from Kivi.I haven't posted these to show off or say that my way is best or some such, just out of interest. And to illustrate the standards of recall I am happy with. I don't really mind if they trot rather than run or come somewhat indirectly as long as they are coming. Although I've been thinking about your "reward only the fastest and most direct recalls" policy, Aidan, and I think I'll give it a burl. I'm playing around with the same principle with targeting and I think Kivi is more resilient than I think he is and I just need to be smarter and more sensitive about my rewards. Sorry, OT. One day I'm going to condition a recall with a Basenji and see how often I get blown off. In secure areas. Well away from roads. With a long line attached.

And how did that work for you? Have you been able to achieve a recall where your dog comes immediately and fast under every circumstance? Did you read the beginning of the thread at all? Once again, I rate Kivi's recall at 95% and Erik's at about 98% or higher. Erik is only 10 months old and sometimes gets confused about who is recalling him, but I expect that his recall will end up as near to 100% as you can get. He's naturally reliable, but currently the reliability falters a bit if Kivi isn't coming as well. That's what accounts for the 2% of times he doesn't come when called. It's something we need to work on with him. I discussed Kivi's reliability earlier in the thread. My point about "effective control" being unrealistic and 100% recalls being unrealistic is simply that dogs are living animals and they do weird things sometimes. Just as so many other people have said. I "regularly apologise" because I'm the one that isn't reliable, not my dogs. If I don't call 'em when I should have they don't come. If I don't anticipate them doing something I should apologise for, I don't recall them. We're talking about pretty benign things. I apologise for things like my dog greeting with too much kissy-face, or with some intense butt-sniffing, or sandwiching a dog between them while they sniff, or trying to approach a dog that is unsure whether it wants to talk to them. Basically, if someone looks uncomfortable - dog or person - I apologise and call the dogs away. It's just polite. We apologise if we didn't see someone coming up behind us and are blocking some of the footpath with our dogs, too. Apologies aren't about absolving blame, but acknowledging that you haven't been as ideally polite as you meant to be. Today we were at the beach and I tried to film some recalls especially for you guys. I'll post them later presuming the camera worked and I wasn't filming the ground instead of the dogs.

I don't have to have a bag of treats on board to get a recall. Because my dogs have conditioned recalls. It was discussed quite early in the thread. I think it's okay to manage a dog's environment to make yourself feel confident. I personally do not have to do that. I have called my dogs without having treats and they come anyway. But I normally have treats, so I reward them. A couple of weeks ago OH recalled Erik in an attempt to get him to come around the coffee table and notice the mouse running around there and hopefully chase it. Erik came all right, and ran right past the mouse. So much for that attempt to set Erik up to fail his recall.

Yeah, I used to think that. But then I thought I'd try liberating myself from it and seeing what happened.

I agree. I have never seen a dog that is trained with positive methods only, recall solidly under heavy distraction. Two trainer friends of mine who have their own positive training businesses just manage their dogs off lead. They always have to have a bag of treats and make sure the area is fenced and their arent too many distractions. But it's the easiest way! That's what Leslie Nelson of Really Reliable Recall fame does with her Afghans. Everyone I know who has used that method or variations thereof have very reliable recalls on their dogs. As I said before, it works for calling the independent little small game hunter off small game. I challenge anyone to teach that dog a recall by just "going and getting" him when he doesn't come. I do believe that method was tried. He is wily and he is fast when he wants to be. If he doesn't want to be caught you can't catch him. Putting on "the tone" just means he'll run faster. He's not dumb. I thought the whole point of training a conditioned recall (with rewards or without) was to take the "optional" out of it. As has been said several times. They just do it. Where's the choice in a knee-jerk reaction?