Luke W

Thanks Dogdude. I think we are slowly getting somewhere with the stand from sit... As you can probably tell, this is the first time I've had a dog for over 20years and the first one I've ever tried to train positively. I think he does show signs of learning stress (barking, whining, wandering off) and it worries me a bit. He'll often bark and bark and bark at me whenever he doesn't seem to understand something and/or the reinforcers aren't coming quickly enough and/or there's to many NRMs (I've tried to stop using NRMs at the moment, my normal NRM is a softly spoken 'uh'). I am going back to easy stuff (sits, downs, send to mat) which he enjoys a lot while I work out what I'm doing wrong.

The important point hasn't got a lot to do with the benefits of a marker word over a clicker for static exercises, more the point of giving the dog time to work out what you want from him, then helping out when needed. How can you click (your release) if he never stands still? Also, if you do capture a stand with a click, you are teaching him to immediately break the stand to gain a reward. This method will never work. I think a "no reward marker" is just as usefull as a positive one in this exercise. It will help explain each part of the exercise to the dog clearly, including when he is allowed to accept his reward. Each no reward signal is followed by trying again, until you are able to capture a good quiet stand. You will find it a lot easier to get a bit of calm behavior by ditching the clicker and using your voice (because of past learnt behaviors), and also by getting the food off your body by teaching him to run to a reward target. You will find your dog will spend more time tuned into you, and spend less time looking for the food on "you". I guess the point of the clicker in this case is to mark the stand (bum off the floor), however short. Then gradually shape the millisecond stand into longer and longer stand withholding the click on the shortest sands and reinforcing the longer ones. I'm trying to avoid using NRMs at this stage, Karen Pryor suggests it can be discouraging to new learners (he's a 4 month old pup). I also need to keep the reinforcement rate high, otherwise he tends to shutdown and wander off. I am slowly making progress (I think), by getting him to target my hand (with no food), then reward from the other hand (after taking the reward from a nearby bench). Note: I don't think it's clicker training (or even training in general) I'm having so much trouble with, just this one exercise. He can sit, down, sit-stay, down-stay, hand touch, stick touch, bark, go to his mat, go into his pen, come out of his pen, walk on a loose lead, walk out around a pole, take it (food), off (don't take food)... Finally, I really do appreciate your thoughts and I'm integrating your ideas into my training. I especially like the idea about getting the food off ME.

How would simply changing from a clicker to a word make any difference? I can't use a drawn out 'gooood' because he NEVER stands still.

PS - A Delta trainer I've been working with says that the click signifies 'job done' and hence is also the release. Karen Pryor talks about the click being used not solely as 'job done' but also as 'getting there' in some circumstances. Where's the rule book!!!

Another conseration is that we need to be very clear in our minds exactly what 'sit' means. Does it mean put the bum on the floor for no particular length of time? In which case, the click should come as soon as the bum hits the floor - with a reward to follow immediately (well, taking into consideration the notion of delayed reward)... If sit means put the bum on the floor and remain there until released...then we should click and reward periodically during the sit... "Sit"...pause...click/treat...pause, click/treat...pause, click/treat...release Or should we: "Sit".....................................pause............. ..........graduaully shape longer pauses................."click quickly followed by 'free command'/treat" - then we can eventually remove the click.... Confusing hey... There doesn't seem to be a single accepted method.

I think we are having a rest from training for a day or two. One thing that continues to confuse me is the use (or not) of a release word. For some trainers, the click is the release. For others, they have a specific release word. With a release word, what's the point of the stay command...? At the moment, for me, 'click is release' - pretty much. Except when it's not.

I tried the box game again - he hasn't eaten much since breakfast. All he wants to do is chew the box. He ignores the clicks. I gave up before I slit my wrists.

I tried the box game. It seems he finds chewing on the box the most rewarding thing in the world!! Even more rewarding than fresh diced steak (usually the highest level of reward for him)... He got stuck chewing and dismembering the box - he stopped responding to the clicks and was more interested in chewing the box than the steak. I could really distract him from the box (by making the treat hit the ground with a lound 'squish' next to him) and get him to take his reward but he went straight back to chewing the box. If I stopped clicking for chewing the box, he didn't care. He was happy to keep chewing the box and not get any rewards. Am I going to have to starve him before playing the box game? Arghhh.

Thanks for the link - I've read "Getting Started: Clicker Training for Dogs (Getting Started)" and I'm part way through "Don't shot the dog"

I really don't quite understand the 101 things with a box...if she just clicking and treating any behavior? Some behaviors but not others? New behaviors? If my dog touches the box with his paw and I click - he's going to go and touch the box with his paw again, do I click??...isn't he just going to keep repeating that behavior? If I stop clicking for touching with the paw...isn't he going to get frustrated? Off to read some stuff... Mat work sound easier...my dog is pretty entuisiatic about going to his cushion. He'll run to and drop on his mat on verbal cue pretty reliably.

Mine does this too. He has a super sit! He sits for everything!

Perhaps unfortunately, after teaching the nose/hand target, I added the cue "touch", then I started to teach that he should only touch WITH the verbal cue "touch". So now he will (mostly) only target with the command 'touch'. I guess I could try: 1. offer palm. 2. Verbal "stand"... 3. Pause... 4. Verbal "touch" to lure the stand ...eventually he'll anticipate the 'touch' command as soon as he hears 'stand' at which time I could fade the 'touch' command. Then I'm stuck with a hand signal that's identical to 'touch'...arghhh

I can't even get him to stand for 1 sec. I can't progress past the 'stand, shuffle left right, sit' (in the space of less than one sec).

I got my targetting intentions mixed up...touch stick is always with nose. "Right paw" is touch what the stick touched with right paw, same for "left paw". That's the plan anyway. I have only taught 'touch stick with nose' and 'touch palm with nose (which ever palm is offered)' so far.

Not really...I really haven't done much capturing. I'm not quite sure how the 'capturing' fits in with existing behaviours and how to go about it. I think he'd get frustrated if I clicked him for a random stand...then didn't reward until he stood again, he'd start offering sits and downs, and barks, and going to his mat etc, etc....but no stands. Can you tell I'm inexperienced.

Thats an idea!

You make it sound so easy :D Re luring into the stand...if I lure him into the stand and click as soon as he stands - what do I do with the hand that holds the lure...if I move it away he follows it by walking or jumping. If I leave it there he mouths it. OK - maybe if I very quickly remov ethe lure hand and treat very quickly with the other hand...that might work. Your comments on 'don't just reward a stand'...that's sounds like 'shaping' rather than 'luring' - I understand what you are getting at - when I was trying to shape the action, I was clicking and treating bum coming off the floor for a fraction of a second, standing up and shuffling left, etc...I can't seem to shape it further into 'stand still for chrissakes!' He knows 'touch hand' and 'nose stick'...I'm not sure how I'd transition from using 'touch hand' to 'stand'....hmm Maybe I do... (I didn't want to link the command 'touch' into the stand action...he knows the verbal command 'touch' and I've started teaching him without the verbal command 'touch' he doesn't touch my palm. Same with stick targetting. I'd intending to have a verbal for 'touch stick with nose', a verbal for 'touch stick with right paw', 'touch stick with left paw', etc...in the absense of a verbal he was to leave the stick alone.) Need to have a long think...

Hoping for some ideas... I'm really struggling to get a good 'stand'. Even a pretty bad stand eludes me. I use clicker training and I've tried a couple of methods. I've working on this for weeks and I'm at my wits end... The first method I used was luring from a sit...treat on his nose, move it forward, he stands, I click.. - Problems...at first he was taking a couple of steps forward...my fault, pulling the lure to far forward. Now I stop my hand, no steps forward but he mouths the lure terribly, all the while his back end is swinging left and right. The second I open my hand and let him have the treat he sits back down. His backend never settles. I initially clicked as soon as he stood, then later tried to delay the click until he wasn't moving quite as much. I can't seem to shape him to stand still. He desperately mouths my hand and swings his back half all over the place. The second method I used was the 'gentle lift under the back leg' - problems...he sits as soon as I remove my hand and his back end swings all over the place I (mistakenly) added a cue - so know he thinks the word 'stand' means: stand up, swing bum around to left, sit, stand up, swing bum around to right, sit, whine, bark, wriggle, sit, whine, bark, swing bum left and right, wiggle bum on floor, whine bark.... I've tried backing him into a corner to prevent movement but he continues to shuffle around.... Help....Any ideas? We are both getting very frustrated.

Let me check my hard copy.... Seems to be the same content - some changes to chapter numbers (Chapter One becomes Synopsis for example), headings and such...but the content seems the same. If you are going to buy Before and Fater - you don't need to download the Before book.

I wouldn't leave him crated for that long either. If I am out for more than an hour or two I generally leave my puppy in his room, which is the room we nomally crate him in at night. He has toys in there and his crate is left open for him to come and go. If you don't have a puppy safe room to use, you can use a puppy pen, make sure you put it on an easy to clean floor. I use a vari-kennel inside a puppy pen and cover the floor with clear plastic sheeting that I buy from a roll at my local $2 Shop. Works great - pup loves his pen and kennel.

Ditto what DogSense says. The downloadable book is here: http://www.siriuspup.com/beforebook.html

She hasn't really got the hang of needing to go outside...sometimes she understands, sometimes she doesn't. And she has hardly any bladder control...It'll take months to become reliable. And then the first time you take her to a strange house, it'll all fall apart again. She might know she upsets you but she probably has no idea why. All she knows is you are angry and upset. Unless you are scolding her WHILE she is toileting in the wrong area (3 seconds later is too late), she has no idea why she is being scolded. Even if you do scold WHILE she's toileting in the wrong spot - it's entirely possible that all you'll manage to teach her is that it's dangerous to toilet while you are around. Don't scold.

I'd suggest crate training... Download Before You Get Your Puppy: http://www.siriuspup.com/beforebook.html

He is quite right. The carrier for the vaccines has been proven to contain any and all the above. Not sure about the "decayed animals" though, and vaccines are not "shot directly into our blood systems" - although that may be an overview. As far as choosing who to believe, because of the evidence I had of the damage vaccines caused, and the instances where they didn't work, I did some research, and went for the people with qualifications - ie Dr Jean Dodds, Dr. Catherine O'Driscoll, Dr Bob Rogers, who had don some serious research in their capacity as vets, and were prepared to put the research forward. If you want some definitive information on vaccinations for dogs, I suggest you google the 3 above, and read what they have to say. Makes perfect sense to me. Not the local vets, who are not specialists, and who are open to suggestions by the companies who make vaccinations. I always check - if possible - anything on the net. A printed book is usually edited by somene qualified, and the statements verified to some extend, particularly in medical or veterinary matters. Things posted on the net could be originated by any permanent resident of the loony bin!! Not suggesting this person is, and indeed, I have not read the book, but that is my take on anything and everything on the net, unless it is verifyable. Sceptical!! And - for your information - For the past 10 years, I have given my dogs 2 puppy shots, and a booster at about 14 months, and then no more. And I mostly use C3. None of them have had parvo, distemper or hepatitis, or kennel cough. We have had a couple of pups visit who actually had parvo. My dogs do go out and about a bit, and I think that they gather natural immunity by doing that. When distemper was the only disease vaccinated against, the belief was that dogs would gather natural immunity bu going on walks, mixing with other dogs etc. No one these days seems to take natural immunity into account, but I do think the dogs pick up immunity by being in places where the viruses are. Have no proof though. I think the "barbaric" comment and the tone of the statement are little emotive. I think it's called "Argument By Emotive Language". The eBook isn't very scientific - no footnotes, lots of claims without any reerences quoted, emotive language. I'm more likely to believe stuff published in scientific journals than an eBook suich as this one. From what I can tell the author recommends NO VACCINES AT ALL. A don't think it'd qualify as "serious scientific research". Unlike the people you mention.

Downloaded it - will have a read. I did see a review of the book (it's more than 10 years old right?)... Some of the quotes in the review: "“The general public has been sucked into believing that decayed animals,diseased blood, sera, bacteria, viruses, formaldehyde, mercury derivatives, acetone, aluminum and carbolic acid - shot directly into our blood systems is the answer to keeping us free of disease. How barbaric.”" I was going to copy and paste some more quotes, perhaps it's better just to link to the review: http://mypetnaturally.com/ebooks/NaturalImmunity.pdf I must say - after reading the favourable review - I'm more than a little dubious. It doesn't sound like a typical scientific analysis. ...A little later after skimming through the eBook...much much more than a little dubious now... Not going to get one iota of crediblity from me.