dog geek

Naw, thankyou, Becks, kind words and welcome. :)

Ah. Yes, certainly:

First question... when you say his teeth are brown, are you referring to the actual tooth being brown? Or is he getting a build-up of tartar along his gumline? Do you allow him to have any fresh bones to chew on?

Well, there you go, LizT - this is the sort of thing that make torrid threads like this worthwhile in the end. To me, this demonstrates we can work together as a community, it might get hairy at times but I feel I have learnt something interesting about myself and that has to be good, right?

Hmm.. Okay, I will go away and ponder that. BTW, I am a bit pouty at having done the quiz and finding no answers are available... How do you check your understanding the intricacies if you cannot compare your answers to the correct results...? Cheers, and thank you espinay2!

Oops, sorry, espinay2 - I did indeed visit that link, I think I understand it to say that yes, I need to write it with two copies of each particular gene, for ALL the genes?

Huh - you are so right, Andisa, I am not at all special, am I? Now. Any takers on my original question? :)

It has certainly been an interesting progression in my viewpoint, Andisa, and thank you for the acknowledgement. Still and all, nothing like a rousing torrent of public humiliation to shock the delusion fluffy thinking out of your system... :laugh:

Thankyou for your understanding, Steve, it makes a world of difference. But I am not, I am afraid, giving any weight at all to the "it is life therefore it must be born" factor. It is not in my suite of rationalisms, and it may be offensive to you that I do not accord this particular argument any value, for which I apologise.

Thank you LOTG, Dawg knows I try.... Hi Steve, no I don't mind, as I said it is a great precedent that there is available an honest and thorough discussion of all angles of a decision like this. I do think that, upon reflection and with hindsight, that there was a fair proportion of "ooo, puppies I love puppies" in my wavering over whether to spey now or not. I still think that the majority of Pom breeders breed without enough thought given to reducing the incidence of disorders related to conformational dysfunction. I also, still, think that the breed is so light in weight that their quality of life is not impaired until the diseases progress far beyond what would be tolerable in animals of even only twice their weight. Additionally, I continue to believe I could produce puppies that, since they are raised to be stable, adjustable, robust little family members, still are fit for their breed purpose. Since I am prepared to euthanase any pup displaying conformation that I would regard as problematic, and that I am prepared to support financially and emotionally any puppy owners if their pup requires treatment down the track, it follows that the more consistently logical path would be to abort this litter. After all - this bitch's lines have now been made redundant by my fortuitous acquisition of the bitch puppy. I was reluctant to "waste" the unsound bitch's lines - I am very attached to the idea of preserving the efforts of earlier breeders, feeling an affinity with previous adherents of this special little breed... ... but really, using this litter to prove my point (that my dog posseses a suite of genes that will correct unsound conformation) is essentially egotistical. Besides, as breeders, we all agree - the money is not the point; the point is that we leave the breed better than we found it. In my particular ethos, this refers to leaving the breed healthier than I find it. I am not responsible for other breeders' choosing the paths they do; but I only wavered from my chosen path because I was letting the difficulties of seeing a way out of my situation (that of being unable to source quality lines for whatever reason) impair my judgement and frustrate one of my basic stated tenets.

Hits the nail on the head, SSM, thankyou for the reassurance and for the support to choose this option. Never an easy thing to do, and I did admire your own stand at the time - which knowledge, having been shared (but not franchised as the Drama Of The Moment In Order For The Audience To Wallow In Emotion En Masse) does provide a precedent - and additionally credibility to your POV. Hi Alyosha, succinct and to the point, also. It is always good to have such a discussion in the public arena - and I would like to mention the private messages I received from other DOLers as being generous and kind in their support.

Eeeeeeuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww... *shudder*

Thankyou Steve, for your courteous support. I apologise for being a bit of a troll about all this, I was pretty much inciting a vehement response out of sheer irritation. It was immature, and has led to responses that would lead outsiders to regard our community with some derision. Alyosha and SSM, it is a great relief to have your input, it was causing me some angst that you two in particular were not represented in the respondants... Alyosha, thank you for your estimate of my credibility, I realise it would be based not on our aquaintance, but on your objective view. SSM, I thank you also - and I believe that I made the mistake of clutching at straws in my efforts to provide myself with breeding options, and when lines similar to the ones I was pining after became available, I jumped at them. Increasing anxiety that I was running out of options meant I suffered impaired judgement... but I was never so relieved and ecstatic as when the younger puppy bitch became unexpectedly available. I guess ultimately, holding others to ethical standards that I expect to flex to allow my for own "special" circumstances is inconsistant. This is why I had booked the unsound bitch in for a spey on Monday; my vet is happy to support me in this decision, but in offering his objective opinion I believe I just might have been regarding his input as "enabling"... I must point out (for any audience members who may still care) that the rational tones of individuals who I admire as objective, educated, and experienced in life in general (and not just a "Dog Breed Fundamentalist" :laugh: ) has been far more significant in allowing me to choose to continue with the spey... ... whereas the vituperative censorious responses just make me want to provide the result diametrically opposed to that of the poster... out of sheer perversity. This whole thread has been surprisingly educational - I thank the breeder community for first, providing me with insight into my reasons for having this litter/continuing with this litter; and then, the opportunity to clarify my thoughts on the process. Being able to reach the conclusion I have - to abort the litter, and concentrate on using the bitch puppy with better conformation - will leave me with a feeling of having made the correct choice rather than than the easy choice. I perhaps have been at times deliberately ingenuous, and admittedly snide in my references to other Pom breeders. I hold the opinions I do because the amount of time I spend researching technical and industry journals is considerable. I have done so intensively for the past three years, but for the last eight years I have been engrossed in educating myself not just from print sources, but by quizzing well-established breeders as well. I certainly feel entitled to regard my self as have done more preparation than the average new breeder. And finally - this has been another learning curve in my progression as a breeder of purebreed dogs. I just hope it is not my last.

Hooly dooley, S&T - you must be so thrilled and relieved with your girl, she looks amazing. No - I would NOT have guessed she had any disorder or illness at all! Rajacadoo, if you purchase flax/linseed seeds (same thing, two different but common names) and grind it fresh before adding it to wet food you will increase the red tones in the hair. This works in a range of animals - Palomino owners avoid it because darkens the horses' coats; and personally, I have given it to a pale red Saluki and within four months he had a richer colour. Oh - and how is this for funny: of my two sons, one is a strawberry red head, the other is a dirty blonde. They both consumed huge quantities of a soya and linseed cracker for a couple of years, and the dirty blonde boy had hair that was so gingery, people used to say he was a redhead, too, like his brother. I knew he was not a redhead, and would explain about the linseed crackers (he is Aspergers, and fixates on a particular texture/taste to the exclusion of all but literally one or two other foods) changing his hair colour... and people would look at me like I was crazy. So I have to admit to now feeling smug and vindicated - the company stopped making the crackers (actually, they continued to make the crackers in that flavour - but they CHANGED THE SHAPE !!! AND BEGAN COOKING THEM FOR LONGER!!!! UNTIL THEY THEY WERE A DIFFERENT COLOUR !!!) and so for the last year and a half my son has had no linseed in his diet. And he no longer has even a tinge of ginge. :D So, there is my opinion, supported by experiences in two different species.

Huh, hi Steve, Is out of proportion, I know, but a cautious acknowledgement (of the thought I have put into that mating) after so much sledging seems like a fresh spring breeze :) That feels like a cascade of praise by comparison... I am not very well informed on this bitch's history, and had picked her up just as she became receptive. My vet saw her on Monday just gone, three and a half weeks into her pregnancy. As I am sure you know, some vets just are not able to pick up dodgy patellas - this one does, he is very good. He said at least a 2 on one side, a 3 on the other, had no comment regarding origin of the luxation. I have had his assessments confirmed in the past by a different vet, one who breeds German Shepherd Dogs, and so I trust his diagnosis; but I am a geek for hard facts, so have my dogs xrayed and their films sent to the AVA/ANKC screening program. I had plans to have this bitch xrayed and assessed once she had had at least four or five months to recover hormonally from whelping, to allow for a more accurate representation of her actual joint health. Since I no longer need to include her offspring in my plans, it would take a bloody wonderful pup from her for me to have her health status formally tested. Steve, if I might run a thought past you - given: *the socialisation and behavioural programs I follow when raising my pups *the full disclosure policy of all health issues and possible future heath issues I propose *and the opinion of my vet that (seeing as the breed does indeed have patellas that are unsound in the majority of dogs) in a small breed, when experiencing such conditions, quality of life is not extraordinarily compromised... ... should I take her in for a spey etc on Monday, or sell my soul to the devil and allow her to carry the litter to term?

Morning all, nice and fresh and ready for more chat? Welcome to what is turning into a truly valuable and engrossing study of my breeding programme - truly, having access to such specialised knowledge and attention is very helpful, after all empirical science does require that we test our theory and subject it to peer review... Jumbaar, I did think you were being sarcastic... and since the inheritance of sound hips and patellas are polygenic I thought it was a big ask to imply that my dog had all the necessary dominants. Just going on his strike rate so far, out of the the eight puppies he has produced, the five I have been able to have assessed by my vet have had nice, tight patellas, and while none of them are old enough for there to be any point to having xrays done and assessed, they so far have had good reports on their hips. I already have imported a bitch - she too is capable of producing better than herself. But I do need a little more genetic diversity. I think it is a little late to suggest I change breeds, and there are differences between GS and Poms in type that make one more attractive to me than the other. It would be interesting, I guess, to canvass GS breeders' opinion on whether they would choose to associate with me, but I would not have the qualms about GS that I do have about Poms. I try to show my dogs, and entered both of my breeds' Specialties last year, only being able to attend one. In passing I would like to mention that I was treated with kindness and respect by the Pom breeders I met there, who all went out of their way to make sure I came away with a positive impression. I consider actually getting to a show less important than tailoring my activities to my children's wants and needs. This means that of the last three or four shows I have entered my guys in, only one of my dogs was shown, and that was only because another exhibitor was kind enough to show him for me. One of my girls is with another breeder who is planning on showing her, and I have entered some shows coming up... ... and finally, it is the unsound bitch having the litter in March.

Wow, there you go, you learn something every day on DOL - I had no idea one animal could have all the dominant genes for perfect hips and patellas :rolleyes: I bought this bitch in early January, and she was in season for the second time since her first litter (five whelps) last year. I have, just over a week ago, bought a bitch puppy with much better conformation and exactly the lines I want. I had in fact approached this pup's breeder about the litter when it was first born, so when she became unexpectedly available and I was able to purchase her, I was thrilled. I no longer had the need to keep the two pups of this coming litter that would best fit my plans as part of my breeding programme. I am keeping this litter until 20 weeks to allow more accurate assessment of structural soundness. And yes - I have/am going to request that the new puppy owners allow me to pay all or at least part of treatment related to conformational problems (not just patella issues), although I will ask that they allow my own vet to assess the dog. Now, I am just wondering if any of the hundreds of viewers of this thread, registered today, have Poms that can be proven to have sound patellas... ...or have evidence (rather than anecdotes or opinion) of Pomeranians in Australia being generally sound and of excellent structure... ...because I am after all claiming on a public forum that Australian Poms are in general scoring 2s and over on their patellas... ...and here would be a perfect opportunity to prove my speciousness, you know, prove that in fact this bitch is not representative of the majority of purebred Poms and that I could have so easily found a bitch with scores under 2.

Ah, rats, I had a nice little post all sorted out and managed to lose it...

Really? How very severe... and here I was, thinking I was doing it better than the way other Pom breeders do it. I am not at all regretful that I breed "for colour"... to me it is analogous to breeding for Ruby Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, or the perfect Blenheim Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, or recessive black Afghan Hounds, or Weimeraners, or yellow Labradors with good black pigment, or correctly marked Bernese Mountain Dogs, or white Salukis. To broaden the analogy, how is what I am doing different to breeding Lilac Himilayans, or Cinnamon Orientals, or Silver Maine Coons, or black Arabians, or pinto thoroughbreds...? I am interested that the respondents to this thread are passionately convinced that the patella and hip scores of this bitch will inevitably lead to degenerative joint diseases, and that she will end up a textbook worst case scenario. I do accept as a fact that a vet nurse would indeed see lots and lots of grade 3 patellas that require intervention... as I would hope vet practices would see most of, if not all of, the cases in the general population that require intervention. And I would still be very interested to hear your opinions of the proportion of "well-bred" purebred Pomeranians with scores of 2/2 or higher - that would be very interesting to find out. It would thrill me to find out that the majority of "well-bred" purebred Poms have patellas that never luxate at all; I should think that would be a phenomenon worthy of a great deal of public applause. Actually - I would be proud to find out that my own view of "well-bred" purebred Pomeranians being prone to significant patella luxation is erroneous, libellous, or unfounded in fact. I did believe I was being more responsible that the average breeder by offering the range of support to the owners of these pups as described... especially since it would certainly be useful information to confirm or refute the position I am taking regarding my dog. (Also, I would think that euthansing severe cases and/or cases with a poor prognosis would be preferable to ignoring that "quality of life" criteria and treating because the technology is available - and the financial resources, too. I would still be inclined to think that treatment is preferable to euthanasing in the cases with a positive prognosis. ) ETA: I think you might have missed the bit where I will be asking the new puppy owners to cover only the costs of the immunisations and vet checks....

Oberon the Borzoi had hygroma(s?) but his did disappear. Would your pup lie on a cold pack wrapped in a pillowcase? Could you crate him for a couple of hours at a time on soft bedding for a week or so?

Yes, still disgraceful IMO. You say that you explain possible health outcomes to your puppy buyers, but they still go ahead with the purchase.....sorry but I cannot believe this, who in their right mind would buy a puppy which is at risk of being affected by a painful and disabling disease when they could go elsewhere and buy a healthy puppy from sound parents, either they didn't understand what you were telling them or you glossed over the risks. What will happen if these puppies have patella or hip problems when you have them screened, if you don't have everything in writing there is nothing to stop the owners from seeking legal advice and taking you to court, it has happened before and will no doubt happen again as long as people like you continue to breed from unsound animals because they like their colour. ??? *sound of eyes rolling* Well, I have had more than a few potential customers decline to purchase from me. Usually they have been looking for smaller dogs, and I happily recommend other breeders to them. Unhappily, for those wanting Poms with no chance of problems with soundness, there are only one or two breeders I am aware of with patella/hip gaurantees... I do not tippy-toe around the pros and cons of patella and hip structure, the relation it has to function, the possible health progression. I do believe I have a not unreasonble expectation of these puppies having better structure and type than their dam, since I have had good outcomes from this sire so far. Previously you said that this latest litter would be placed into pet homes but now you say that you'll be retaining the puppies and having any that fail health tests pts, all I can say is that they shouldn't have been bred in the first place. The thought of breeding a litter of puppies that have a good chance of carrying a heritable disease, keeping them until they're old enough to be tested and then killing them fills me with horror, obviously you are made of sterner stuff than I am, because doing that would break my heart. "Close to home" - in other words, they would not be far from home. Specifically, that the homes I have been lining up for this particular litter are being carefully chosen for their ability to grasp the possible consequences of any structural faults (should they be present); their ability/willingess to provide ongoing vet care should it be required; and for their willingness to work with me and allow me to contribute to any decisions or costs associated with *possible* vet care. *If* any pups had such evident malformations as to be evident by the age of twelve weeks, then of course I would euthenase. I look at such actions from the perspective that it is a little different to breeding with a breed carrying known lethal recessives - referencing natural bob-tailed breeds such as Bostons, Bulldogs, and Frenchies - and - once more - that the genetic heritage this bitch carries presumably will provide a statistical probability of her producing pups with better structure than herself even without the addition of my dog's superior contribution. [/b] I have read all your posts and looked at all your dogs and personally I don't think you'd recognise type and soundness if it jumped out and bit you on the bum, you rave on about health testing (which you apparently don't always bother to do), but there is a lot more to breeding than that. The way you are going you will end up with a heap of fluffy dogs in pretty colours that look nothing at all like the breed they're supposed to represent that you will no doubt sell at vastly inflated prices because you'll describe them as rare. I'm not surprised that reputable breeders refuse to sell to you and I'm glad that you started this thread because it will make more people aware of your practices and the fact that you are breeding solely for colour without any thought or concern for the individual dogs involved and the fate of the breed as a whole. You are no better than the so called 'breeders' of blue staffords. Oh, my - you might have read my descriptions of the health testing I do, but I am not convinced you understood what I was saying. Or that you were able to look objectively at the information... rather than through a rather emotional framework informed by an understandable outrage generated by the lackadaisical habits of some colour breeders. In any case, it is fallacious that I do not recognise type, or that I am unaware of the intricacies of breeding - fallacious, and entertaining. I do indeed recognise the different types of Pom, I am quite well-informed on the history of the different types, and I have my own rational, well-thought-out reasons for preferring the type of Poms I now own. And I judiciously adjust the price of my pups to allow for the fact that - unlike the majority of current Pom breeders - I: conduct formalised health testing on the pups and their parents I devote a great deal of energy and resources to raising pups that have the advantage of having been socialised in a manner designed to produce emotionally resilient family dogs and that I offer a lifetime of interested, engaged support to the owners of my puppies. Indeed - I am happy to have shared the best qualities of my imported dogs with a fellow breeder with no money changing hands; and this next litter of pups will be priced to only cover the costs of immunisations and vet checks, but not including specialist consults as I pay those myself. It is interesting that you are still making comparisons with the dreaded blue staffy breeders...

I will keep that in mind next time I am in the market for a Great Dane, Sway, and remember not to upset you with an inquiry... I guess to an eye only accustomed to seeing the showline Poms commonly in the ring they are funny-looking... although to me, those Poms look less like a Pom, and more like a Chi with a very full coat. Additionally, I do admit to having very amateur photo skills, and that my best efforts at taking stacked shots of my Poms are doomed to produce pictures that sadly do not present them at their best. Oh - I take shots when they are out of coat too, and when they look all odd and gangly due to being teenagers. *geek alert* Interestingly, the first influential Pom that had the "teddy" look was shown in 1915 (thanks and acknowledgements to "The Pomeranian Project" http://www.pomeranianproject.com/). I am rather of the "preserve original type" school of thought, and I am quite happy to present Pomeranians that to me are better representatives of the standard than the teeny tiny teddybear Poms - because in my estimation, reducing the size of Pomeranians below about 3 kilos increases the probability that syringomelia and associated cerebrospinal disorders will surface in the breed. Additionally, I choose to breed Poms with longer muzzles in order to produce enough length of jaw for correct dentition; to reduce tear gland dysfunction; and finally in order to improve palate formation and reduce esophageal disorders. So - I agree, my Poms do not look like the winning Poms in Australia... as that is a deliberate choice I have no issues with people noticing.

:rofl: Sorry, not laughing at you, Rebanne, but I am amused at the number of views this thread is getting... I am quite happy to admit that your breeding programme sounds wonderful, and suited to your particular circumstances. My breeding plans are a little different - as is the breed I am devoted to. Have you not noticed the posts where I outlined the health screening I do on my dogs? Or where I have described the information I provide to ALL puppy enquiries, vis-a-vis health status of my puppies and their parents? Or the efforts I am making to track the structural development of the dogs of my breeding? Or the statements I have made re the fascinating lack of enthusiasm evident when I have made overtures to other breeders in my efforts to find outside lines, whether they are coloured or not? I find it moderately diverting that this thread is generating so much angst... particularly since I am very nearly the only breeder of Pomeranians in Australia that collects any formal data on the structural health of my animals. I have a somewhat more sanguine attitude to the scores this bitch has... perhaps because I regard an overly-negative interpretation of the *possible* future of this individual to be a little... alarmist? A little overly-emotional, even? But then, I do have an investment in focussing solely on the "best case scenario", and contingency plans for the varying degrees of "worst case scenario". Does anyone have any input on the original request to critique my interpretation of the colour genetics behind my dogs? And - pardon my effrontery, but... *of course* I am breeding for colour... I am a little non-plussed at the focus on this aspect of my plans. Coloured Pomeranians are a variety of Pomeranians that just rock my boat... and provide an extra dimension of interest when planning breedings.

No, I am fine with your tone, I encourage other opinions no matter the tenor ;) I have imported a bitch. But I am not sure how having just one bitch and a father and son is going to give me the next ten years' worth of breeding programme. It is not my plan to just breed the same litter over and over again - I am keen to explore the strengths and weaknesses of the imported lines, and I want to improve the Australian particolour lines. To be honest, this litter - as a test litter - is going to be staying close to home. And any puppy with hips or knees - or elbows, or shoulders - which has problems apparent at an early age (before 12 weeks) I will most likely euthanase. I reiterate - I am expecting my dog to improve on this bitch's faults, as he has shown himself capable of doing so, and the lines behind her sire are quite worthwhile. I already have an agreement with my previous litter's puppy owners that they will take the puppies to have xrays at the appropriate age, which I will pay for, and provide copies of to the owners - so that I can track how the hips and knees develop. We are, in addition, talking about dogs that rarely reach even 4 kilograms. Essentially - this bitch was the best I could do, the alternatives were straight out "high volume" breeders who sell to anyone. Apparently, I clearly am not reputable enough for "reputable" breeders to want to cooperate with (oops - apart from a couple of other particolour aficionados whose ethics I admire and who are sadly unable to offer me anything but animals closely related to my own) and I have already sourced the best genetics from overseas that I could afford. Effectively this meant that I was going to be breeding closer and closer, even if I only bred two or three litters from my imported bitch. I do have arrangements with other particolour breeders to combine forces and swap breedings and animals when appropriate - but they coincidentally had each been in the process of importing their own particolours who are very, very closely bred to my own two. I now have bought a bitch with the exact lines I had hoped to access, due to a combination of unlikely happenings and events, and am much happier about using this new girl. Her patellas are nice and tight, too...

I only wish our breed club had a health scheme! As far as I know, other than myself there are only one or two breeders who do any formalised health testing at all. I suspect - and I may be doing them a grave dis-service, and apologise if I have misinterpreted the lack of interest in allowing me to use or purchase their dogs - that my unabashed interest in, and disclosure of, health status in Pomeranians has made me unpopular. There were some very quelling responses when I brought up doing the health screening. Apparently Pomeranians have no health issues. So we do not need to do health testing. But then, apparently luxating patellas are just "in the breed" - almost a breed characteristic was the impression I was left with, lol. And there was no apparent knowledge of the correlation between hip socket formation and patella issues, either. I would say there are very, very few Pomeranian hip and elbow scores on the ANKC database... Can I emphasise, again, that this bitch was bred because her sire's lines are very close to what I was hoping to access. Additionally, I am curious - are any of this thread's respondents toy breeders, other than LizT? And what sort of numbers of KCCS's are screened - are there data on the verifiable occurrance of high patella scores?