Tassie

Hey Sparty - I'll be in the Melbourne area, and I'd sort of pencilled in going to have a look at the Lancefield thing. So you're going to be there on New Year's Eve? I'll PM you about details. Don't think I'll enter Miss Kirra - she does have her HIT, but would probably be DQd for teeth flossing Maybe I should bring her documents anyway. I'm a VCA member as well as a TCA member, so should be no problems there. Barb ETA Bodie looks great in that shot - wish Kirra would keep good distance off her sheep.

Oh yeah - there's a Kelpie with tons of style - great! And I just love the 'crossover' pic. Thanks - Barb

Excellent, Vickie! Apart from Trim being a great dog, you must be doing some awesome handling! I'm jealous At my advanced age, I find Open jumping quite the challenge with my speedy little girl. It's so hair trigger - cue too early, and she could pull a bar - too late and she'll off course - and then she gets soooo cross with me if I can't get it right - talk about work ethic - she's got it in spades. Are you doing agility with Trim as well? Congrats again. Barb

Got shivers up my spine just reading your description of your Mud-boy, mjk05. It must be a great experience to watch your dog working without having to worry about what the sheep are doing! (My girl won't work for anyone else at the moment, so I don't see that.) And I'm glad you didn't take it personally when I focussed on the Border COllie for showing style - by that I meant that really slinky sort of stuff you can see in Vickie's post too - I haven't seen Kelpies show exactly that sort of stuff - but certainly they have all the rest of the package - especially that looking one way, body going the other - and feet looking like they're maybe pointing in different directions, just in case! And they have that same sort of totally focussed intensity - just magic. Barb PS - Hi Vickie - glad you dropped back in!

Hey Netti AFAIK they have a special permit for Longford (and I believe on of the organisers is a policeman in the area - that helps .) I'm vaguely thinking of doing next year's ET - but don't know whether I'll get round to doing the training. Harder with 2 dogs, too - and I live down south where it's all hilly! A friend of mine did it last year - she and her husband ran with their dog. You can bet I won't be doing that! I should see some of the people involved in ET on Saturday at an agility trial - I'll try to remember to ask where they trained. Barb

Love your pics mjk05. Very stylish dog in the second lot. I was thinking (but didn't say it) in the other thread about stylish working BCs (which mine isn't) and how they would go down in the show ring! And those pics reminded me of the intensity thing too, which is so characteristic of working Border Collies - and Kelpies too. Barb

Hey Netti - hi to another Tasmanian. Just be aware that under Tasmanian law you are not allowed to ride a bike with a dog on public roads. Which makes training for ET pretty difficult. I think you're OK riding with the dog on bike OK trails in places like State forest reserves, or parks where dogs and bikes are allowed. Barb

So does anyone know for sure when the new Obedience rules are actually coming in - and does anyone have the final (book) version? I just went to the ANKC website to check - http://www.ankc.aust.com/rulereview05.htm - but I'm more confused than ever. Seems there was a motion to delay - then an "out of session" process to deal with a motion to recind the delay motion. ...... And OT does anyone have any firm info about the new Agility rules? Barb ETA Sorry yb, this was a bit of a hijack. I'll take it over to a new topic.

Yay, Sparty! And that was really bad luck about the afternoon stay - there's always something. Got more trials there this year? Barb

Wow - interesting post, Vickie. Agree totally about teaching the dogs (or setting it up so they teach themselves) to jump properly, and figure out their own takeoff. I used the Suzanne Clothier Natual Jumping Method - basically a cavaletti set up (though I confess I didn't work it right through to the end - equipment and space limitations.) The only time my skinny Minnie little Border Collie bitch pulls bars is if I have mucked her up - just as you say giving an ill-timed command, or being in the wrong place. (Poor little girl - she has to put up with such a Klutz handler.) My mad boy pulls bars when he's out of control - tries to go too fast and jumps too flat. Once he's got rid of the crazies, he jumps beautifully. The top Border Collie round here has a real bar-pulling problem. I think at the stage he's at, they're not going to re-train him, but I think he would benefit from cavaletti training. Oh yeah - been there - cost us an Open Jumping pass, and ruined a lovely run from her. Actually, she didn't knock a bar - just off coursed, but the solution you suggest would have fixed that. I like the idea of imagining and extra obstacle on the line of the last jump - would certainly make me concentrate harder. On the question of training height - depends what we're working on. If we're working on a training sequence, I'll usually work on small, since I'm such a challenged handler, we're likely going to have to do the exercise several times! We usually do one run at competition height though. Hope others with more experience than me pick upon this thread. Barb

I planned on the sewing thing with my previous boy's ribbons as a retirement project. I've been (semi) retired 3 years nearly, and they're still in the drawer. Could be because I'm spending time trying to add to the collection with the cureent 2 puppers!:rolleyes: I thought of framing the best few (high in trial). Haven't done that yet either. Barb

Oh, what a bummer! They always seem to find something, don't they? Still, at least he got the 170 to start with. Barb

Way to go Vickie and Trim! What a great day! Congrats from Barb, Fergus and Kirra.

As far as the ANKC rules go, it is possible to get an exemption on medical grounds from left hand heeling. I know a girl who had only one leg, and used elbow crutches. She had permission for her dog to heel between the crutches - effectively in the place where her other leg would have been. It can be quite fun to train the dog to heel on either side - maybe using a different cue to save confusion (on the handler's part at least.) I think that is used in 'doggy dancing'. Barb

Interesting discussion folks. I have 2 show-bred Border Collies - we play around with obedience, agility, flyball, tracking (one of them) and they have both worked as visiting pets as therapy dogs (not at present - no time, or else they're too dirty.) With my little bitch, I started her on sheep at 2 - original set-up wasn't great, so she got in some bad habits of splitting and chasing. Then I went to a friend who has a fine-wool operation, on which she uses her American working-bred Border Collies. With a lot of work, and a lot of patience on my trainer's part, Kirra has become a useful little farm dog. She's still a bit wild - usually will take a stop on the drive, but rarely when she's fetching - although she will take flanks in both situations. Her gate manners are getting better, and she's useful in the yards - though she doesn't back - and can work in the shed. Doesn't have a big gather yet - 100 metres is about the limit, and usually needs a couple of redirects. We usually work larger groups of sheep, though the other week she worked four quite nicely. She doesn't work with a lot of eye or style, but gets very sticky on a single. I'm delighted with what she can do, given a green handler, and that she's not working bred. I've got to say though that there's a big difference between her and the working bred collies on the place - and from what has been said here, there's a difference between the collies and some of the ones you guys have seen. Because of the nature of International and US Border Collie trials, the UK and US dogs tend to be able to take much more responsibility and initiative - although even in the US there are worries about some trial dogs becoming a little mechanical and over-managed. Barb P.S. - so you haven't become a Border Collie convert Avenglenn? You really will have to come down and see my trainer's dogs working.

These threads are really interesting to read. Thanks for posting that email, Vickie – it raises important points. Reading discussions like this make me realize that I have been really lucky in having a trainer (and friend) who has a working sheep farm, and was prepared to be very patient with Kirra and me last year while we were getting over our early bad habits, and while I was learning enough about stock to be able to not mess Kirra up too much. I also have had the opportunity to watch my trainer and her (very experienced) stockman and their dogs working at many different jobs. And this year, Kirra and I have learnt enough to be able to do a variety of jobs around the farm. While we may never get the precision necessary for trials, I now know enough to be able to go with Kirra and get a mob of 200-250 sheep, gather them, and then drive them up to a kilometer to another part of their paddock, or to the yards. It’s not always pretty – and at times she loses her brain (and sometimes some of her sheep) – but now I know enough to just go and set up another gather, and let her fetch them for a while until she gets her act back in gear. Her gather is getting a bit longer all the time – about 75-100 metres on good flocking Merinos – although she will sometimes ring them before fetching them. Again – a trial fault – but for Kirra, it seems to be a way of her making sure she’s actually got control of the whole mob – so I don’t fuss her too much about it. Certainly for us, learning through working has been important – and is allowing what natural instinct Kirra has to develop (she’s show/performance bred). She has learned to work different sized mobs, to drive as well as fetch, and to work off-balance – like putting sheep in yards. Incidentally – going back to the stop thing – I have much more success getting a stop on her when she’s driving – both the pause/change flank stop as well as the real ‘stop right there’ sort of stop. Barb

Aaah – a stop! I wish…. This is an interesting discussion, folks – hi Andrea, BTW, and ML. Some really good points made by Vickie and Kelpie-i in particular. IMO a lot depends on what you’re training for, and on the working instinct and style of the dog, and of the attitude of the dog. I started out with an ANKC group, but have been working for over a year with a trainer who is also a sheep farmer, whose dogs are working bred and whose trialling background is ISDS style. With my little girl, we had a hard time getting her out of splitting and chasing, virutually causing her to quit in the process - so then we had to work on building up her confidence and speed on getting round bigger mobs. We did the ‘bring sheep into the corner and hold’ sort of stop that Vickie describes, but didn’t force the issue too much beyond that. It’s only now that she’s been working as a farm dog for several months, and is pretty confident in most of her jobs, that we’re really hammering the ‘stop’ – and still not asking for a lie down. In my trainer’s book, the stop should be rewarded by letting the dog have the sheep again pretty well straight away – unless you’re at a gate, of course – or it’s “That’ll do – i.e. work’s finished” She believes that the dog is more likely to give a stop if she knows she can have her sheep again. We’re working on encouraging the dog to use her instincts and her reading of sheep, once she understands the job, and trying to keep commands to a minimum. (This is the exact opposite of the sort of micro-managing that you sometimes see - and it’s quite hard for someone coming from an obedience background.) Don’t you love it when you have to apologize to the dog when she ignores or delays a flank or a stop because she read the sheep better than you did. My trainer says Kirra gets a look on her face that says “Geez Mom, aren’t you watching your sheep?” Oh, and in relation to the comparison with retrieving - I think it's right that a working stock dog is required to use her instincts and reading of stock and work independently - after all, they will sometimes be working blind to the handler, and also they can notice individual sheep in a mob and adjust accordingly much better than most humans can. By the time you've given a command, the situation may have changed. Barb

Hi Vickie When Kirra gets time off from her farm work , she comes with me and Fergus to train agility at Eastern Shore Dog Club at Bellerive, and Hobart Canine Obedience Club. Kirra is awesomely fast, but bossy and need clear direction (and a younger smarter handler - 2 Novice Jumpers passes so far. Fergus is very fast too, but I'm having a hard time getting him to bring his brain with him. He's very keen - and a tunneling freak. I had a win with him at training the other week - managed to call him off the tunnel 3 times - you have to know Fergus to know how big a deal this was! Hey Poodlefan and Sheilaheel - remember Kirra and Fergus from dog camp last year? Hope you guys and the dogs are well. Barb

On the question of handlers using different words for various exercises – I was stewarding in the UD ring last weekend, and noticed a couple of handlers using ‘wood’, ‘leather’ and ‘metal’ for each of the scent discrimination articles (most handlers use ‘search’, ‘seek’, ’find’ or just ‘fetch’ for all three.) I also know handlers who train ‘one’, ‘two’ and ‘three’ for the directed retrieve. I know an Open handler whose recall command is ‘Here’. In reference to using the dog’s name with a command – it is easy to get into a habit of doing this, and the dog thinks it is part of the command. This can be a problem in the OB ring, where, except for the recall, the dog’s name can only be used once – at the start of the exercise. (Note it’s not compulsory to use the dog’s name at all.) The agility ring is quite a bit freer – you can use whatever words (in English?) you like, as long as they are not reprimands. Dog’s name can also be used multiple times. (Note, you can’t use intimidatory tone of voice for commands in the OB ring either.) Barb

Interesting discussion about the pros and cons of doing lots of different stuff. I think it does depend on how much you are geared towards title. I guess I’m not that keen on putting titles on my two 3 year old Border Collies! We do: Obedience (one trialling in Novice – the other maybe won’t trial); Agility/Jumping – one about to start trialling in jumpers – agility later – the other playing until I find his off switch; Flyball - just getting started in this state – not racing yet – both dogs love it; Tracking – one dog just starting to trial; Herding – the other dog – has HIT, but now just learning to be a handy farm dog – we’ll avoid ANKC herding for the moment – it would conflict with our general farm work training for this dog; and they both do therapy dog visits. Oh, and in their down time, they are busy training for CPX.

Yep - I'm using the Shirley Chong method too - although I must admit it would work even better if I'd been more consistent and regular. My Border Collie, now 2, doesn't carry things in his mouth, and isn't a natural retriever. Using Shirley's method, he now really lkes his dumbbell, and is learning to hold it in his mouth, and to pick it up off the ground. One thing I really like is that it seems to teach the dog only to pick up the dumbbell by the bar. BTW, love those pictures.