Tassie

Just had to have a little brag on my BC Kirra. We finally finished her Masters Agility title on Wednesday evening in the first trial of the year. Good little girl. Now to work on getting the two Masters Jumping passes we still need, before we both get too old.

There was a bit of discussion about that on the first page, I think. What GD and LD were saying is that they would only do the U turn and flip finish because otherwise you are teaching and rewarding your dog for blind crossing you, so it weakens your teaching about blind cross bodyline and reinforcement zone which is the core of Greg's handling system. I think Susan Garrett would say the same. The dog blind crossing weakens the connection between you and your dog, and may cause the dog to have questions - which the Derretts argue should be avoided. They didn't say "Don't do it" - just that if you do the round the back, be aware that it may have some negative fall out on your agility. So I guess, in starting out with a new dog, you may teach the flip and U turn, but if you have a really nice round the back with an existing dog, you may want to stick with that, and wear any consequences there may be in agility. (And after all the GD and SG systems are all about shaving fractions of seconds and winning World Cups - not necessarily ambitions we share - well, certainly not me. :cool: ) On the other hand, as I think it was lp said, dogs may be smart enough to figure the difference in different disciplines - just as they are encouraged to pull ahead of you in tracking, and can cope with heeling on right and left for HTM and switch back for obedience..

I think the OP is talking about a new vaccine called Nobivac - given at 10 weeks - one shot, I think. Some vets down here are using it. A couple of people I know have used it with no problems, but that's a very small sample. I didn't use it as my pup was vacicnated with C3 at 6 weeks, so I just had the C5 at 12 weeks - was expecting to maybe have a 3rd at 18 weeks - but my vet says he doesn't do that 3rd one now - so Rory's next shot will be at 15 months. AFAIK there is a 3 year version of the more usual C3, but there may also be vets who are using the usual C3, but following the American 3 year protocol.

I learnt the flip finish and U LAT at Mary Ray camps. She starts by doing a lot of rear-end awareness work, and first of all teaches a stationary 'find heel' - luring it first, and marking the moment when the dog is making the turn with its rear end - the reinforcement is delivered in heel position. She does lots and lots of these, until the movement becomes minimal, and it's mostly the rear end swinging round. (She actually does the exercise on both sides - to balance the dog up, but also for heelwork to music.) When she does the U turn, she's very careful of her footwork, and marks the dog making the same butt shifting movement as it gets out of the way. (Using GD training, you can do lots of inside circle work, including very tight inside circles on the spot, so that the dog can happily withstand pressure on its line.) When she does left turns, she makes sure the dog is swinging its butt out of the way, and marks that and rewards as the dog resumes the parallel heel position before stepping off again, so that there's value in the dog making the turn quickly and neatly to get into heel position again. If any of that makes sense. Oh, and on the blind cross thing - as lp says, it's about maintaining the connection and having the dog always trying to reach the reinforcement zone in front of you. The Derretts do teach the dog to go away - but it's mostly going forward away from you - and you're accelerating to cue that - they reward with a toy when the dog does that. Lateral distance they just build up gradually - the dog is still following the direction the lne is taking (if I've understood it correctly. ) But again, for obedience, ti's what you and the dog are comfortable with unless you really want to work on changing it. GD will say that you can 'break the handling system rules' but you need to be aware that there could be fallout in weakening the dog's understanding - so the dogs may have questions in agility.

So if you're sticking to GD handling system, you would need to do U left about turn, and the flip finish (i.e. not round the back). Right about isn't a problem as the dog is chasing the turning blind cross body line. Both U turn and flip finish are legal in Ob trials. It's good to try to polish them though - the key thing is that the dog moves it's butt while keeping the head in position. (I know the theory - don't quite have the polished perfection .0

With my pup (and pups in the past) I've had most success with an interupt (call it a correction if you like) - mine is a fairly gruff "Uh-uh" - pretty well immediately followed by giving the pup a legal chew object. If the pup sticks with that, after a little while I will praise him for chewing on the legal object. I don't usually make a game of that at that time, for the reasons Cosmolo mentioned - though I will play games with toys and tuggies at other times (as I like to use toys as rewards and motivators.) I think it's really important that pups learn to distinguish between objects they're allowed to chew, and those they're not. This means that when they get to teething, and must chew, they're pretty clear about what is OK, and if they make a mistake, they're easy to re-direct. If a pup got really worked up, and wouldn't respond to the interrupt/redirect, I would give the pup a short time-out in a pen or crate. My pup, now 20 weeks, has developed a lovely soft bite, and now that he's teething big time, if he's very calm and gentle, I will sometimes allow him to mouth my hand while I massage his gums and cheeks - but only for a while, and only when he's calm. He also usually responds very well to the interrupt, and will re-direct himself - good boy. Consistency is certainly key.

What ellz said. Don't know if it's the right thing to do, but I do it sometimes. Thinking of giving frozen ones to my 20 week old BC now as his teething seems to be worrying him a bit at present - big teeth coming through, I think. He enjoyed a plain piece of ice the other day.

Hi Ree I didn't reply before because my situation is a bit different - both my dogs have access to inside and sleep inside. But I just have to say - crates are your friend - especially in relation to toilet training. Be careful though - they have a habit of multiplying You'll find you need an airline crate, a wire collapsible, a soft crate ........ But seriously, my experience has been that dogs love them (even if they didn't start out in them as puppies, but more so if they do. And the really good thing is that they generalise - once they 'get' the idea of crate as den, it applies to any variety of crate.

Hope everything is still OK, kelpiechick. It's such a scary thing, even if you think you're all prepared. I have a sprinkler system set up on my roof, with a petrol pump to pump out of the tanks I had to install to deal with storm water. I'm on mains water, but am up a hill, so I've always assumed that I would lose water supply in a fire emergency. Best wishes to all who have been/are being affected.

Heard that this morning, Pippi. OMG. It's only 27 here, but that's getting warm - and the car is in the sun, where it's even hotter - and I have to go pack it up and set off to drive to Devonport and the boat - can you tell I'm putting that off. See you there.

Yep - I'm going. Auditing Laura's Foundation Day on the ( very hot) Thursday - thank goodness. But I've got working slots on Friday - box work, and the 2 advanced days. (Seemed like a good idea at the time . Hopefully it'll be a little less hot then, as Kirra and I definitely aren't acclimatised for heat. I've got cool mats/coats for the dogs - I'll need to really pay attention to puppy Rory, who'll be crated except for wee breaks. Luckily he seems to be quite calm in his crate. Yesterday when we were doing a bit of training, he just sat quietly in his wire crate and watched. Hope he'll be as good as that while we're at the seminar. Look forward to seeing some of you there. And who needs bathers for the clam shell - if it's that hot, sitting in the pool in clothes seems like the go.

Some very good advice here. Just a couple more things to add. I'd be having quite a few things he can amuse himself quietly with - recreational bones keep them happy for ages, and nice and calm, or you can stuff a kong with some moist food and freeze it, or put some kibble or cat biscuits in a squashed 2 litre milk bottle (even my nearly 7 year old girl amused herself with that for a while the other night. If he's going to be primarily an outside dog, then probably he need to be spending a bit more time outside, away from you, otherwise it will be a big break for him later. Again, you can use the long-lasting amusement 'toys' for him out there. 10 minutes at a time is probably a little bit long for an 11 week old. If you can, I'd be breaking it up a bit more - so several shorter sessions. I'd personally also be using an x-pen of some kind, instead of just a crate or a mat. You can have the mat inside the x pen. Again, with chew objects in there, the pup can learn to amuse himself where he can see you, but is not pestering you. Remember, if he's attention seeking, any attention from you is rewarding. My 15 week old still occasionally tries to grab a part of me or my clothing as I'm walking, but I use an interrupt sound "Uh-uh" and redirect him to something he's allowed to have. Sometimes I'll let him hold one end of a toy in his mouth while we walk along, with me holding the other. I think the idea of interrupt/re-direct was discussed on the biting thread. Wherever possible, give the pup something to do which you can then reward, rather than just giving him some sort of negative like "off". Like others have said, find ways of making it easy for the pup to do the 'right' thing.

Agreed. And I would add - whatever you decide to do in the end, I would not be using a check chain on a 5 month old - particularly a Border Collie. By all means discuss your concerns with the Club. If you are required to use something other than a flat collar, have a look at martingales, or something like the Black Dog limited slip or training collar.

Hi Angelsun - just sent you an email asking for a copy of the outline. Oh, and Kepala is a super place - would be really good for a workshop.

Cool - see you there. We're hoping they're patient with old ladies!

Had to laugh at Erny's description of the early days with her (not so) little one. That was my first week with my new boy. Bozpup, you're right in that having your pup from 6 weeks has made your job very, very much harder. Those 2 extra weks with mum and litter mates is very important (though it doesn't avoid all the problems ) However, you've got to deal with what you have now. I agree with everyone who has talked about consistency - and you have to try to stay calm too (yes, I know, that's definitely not easy.) I always try to have 'permitted' things within easy reach wherever I am in the house - toys, socks, plastic drink bottles, sticks if necessary, but anything, so that when the pup grabs me or my clothing, I can immediately remove his mouth from me and substitute something else, and immediately praise - maybe have a game of tug with the permitted thing, throw it for a retrieve - anything to make clear the distinction between what is allowed and what isn't. In a couple of weeks, my boy has progressed to usually recognising a firm "Uh-uh" as a signal to let go - I still re-direct him to a permitted object. The 'Uh-uh" acts as an interrupt to the mouthing behaviour, rather than as a real correction. Remember that for a pup, even a negative response from you is still a response and rewarding. Since pups play mouthing games with other pups and dogs, where the other dog may grab the muzzle or hold the dog down, pup is likely to see this as part of a game, complete with sound effects. My advice - get in immediately with your interrupt, and immediately redirect to a permitted object - or two, and make sure pup is praised for engaging with that. As has been said, an off switch comes as built in equipment with all pups - but sometimes it is a bit hard to find, and needs some priming. It's good for pups to learn to spend nice time by themselves - with maybe a stuffed kong, or some squeaky toys or a bone or something. Then they can do the necessary chewing by themselves. Make the right thing easy - be consistent and be patient. ET fix typos

This may be completely irrelevant, but my previous BC boy injured his neck, and was quite lethargic and depressed. It seemed to recover, but then he became symptomatic again. Vet diagnosed an abscess at the site of the injury - prescribed antibiotics, and Sam recovered fully. From what you describe, it does sound as though your little one is experiencing considerable pain -not fun. I'd be getting a second opinion - maybe from an orthopedic specialist vet. Why do these things happen at the most inconvenient times.

Hey, no fair, ness - leopuppy can't have Kirra's dog toy. (Better explain, that Kirra doesn't chase balls, but she does love to chase dogs who chase balls - that would be Miss Kenzie, right?) BTW lp, are you going to the Derrett seminar?

What are you trying to do .. make me feel guilty? It's nowhere near 30 here, but quite warm for Tassie, and there's a horrible warm wind blowing - not nice to be outside, say the dogs, who are both sound asleep inside. Anyway ..... there are some articles on Melissa Alexander's Clicker Solutions site here that may give you some ideas. NOw to get myself motivated, and wake up the dogs ......... or perhaps not .

Hi Bulldust - I've PMd you.

If you want a vet behaviourist, I think Dr Debbie Calnon from Victoria comes down every so often to do consults in Hobart - not sure where she's based, but you could probably find a contact for her in Melbourne and ask. I've heard her speak at a conference, and I would hvave no hesitation consulting her.

Belated happy birthday to you. And well done on what sounds like some really nice work (both from you and Ness :rolleyes: ). UD pass can't be too far away.

FWIW = My BC pup had his first vacc (Protech) at 6 weeks, and his second (Protech C3 and Bordatella (Kennel Cough)) at 12 weeks. My vet says he's fine now until the adult booster in 12 months time.

Oh, good - so you might consider coming to Tasmania as well? Small but enthusiastic dog performance fraternity - our club has started Rally O, and it's met with good response, but we need more help - especially being rather remote (think PEI), and with a population just nudging 500 000.

How old is the pup? Not that it really matters I would do the same thing anyway. IMHO, the best way is to have a very light collar and lead to start with, and put it on, maybe at meal time, and thenjust let the dog wander around with it on - under supervision so it doesn't snag. Once the pup accepts that, you can tyr picking up the lead, maybe playing with the pup with a toy, or giving a treat, walk a few steps, treat/game/praise, then let the lead drag again, then rinse and repeat as often as necessary. You could also get the pup's meal ready, then some distance away, pick up the lead and 'walk' the pup to the meal. Pups will vary in their responses - most get over their concerns pretty quickly, if you take it steady and remain totally matter of fact about it - but lots of reinforcement for nice walking. I basically ignore the collar scratching and lead chewing which is a natural response - it usually goes away pretty quickly. I've been lucky with my BC pup - I had to start him on a collar and leash at the airport when I picked him up, so he could wee safely. He pretty much took it in his stride, thankfully. Oops - just noticed the bit about reacting when you touch his collar. You need to make 'grab the collar' a very reinforcing game for him. Very high value reinforcement - treats and/or tug or toy game - whatever he really likes. Then you touch the collar, and immediately reinforce - gradually you make it into a 'gotcha' game, where to get the reinforcement he has to tolerate having his collar handled. They usually learn quite quickly - my revious boy was reactive to collar holds, but after playing this game, if I hed out my hands and said "Gotcha", he would come and virtually put his neck in my hands to play the game. Don't play the game for too long at any one time - leave him wanting more - but play it often. Hope that makes sense.