Souff

Pulled from the Animal Liberation of Australia website (http://animal-lib.org.au/about-us/who-we-are.html) : "Animal Liberation believes all animals (yes humans are animals too) have a right to live how they would normally choose without other species intervention." --Lhok ALV is Animal Liberation Victoria, not Australia. Not exactly a big difference Megan.

Here's hoping that she cant deliver ..... and that the owners cop a really big vet bill for the C-section. Better yet, lets all pray for it to be in the middle of the night so they get the EMERGENCY C-section bill for large breeds. $$$$$$ And if she haemmorhages because of the oxytosin given, well then she will be spayed as well $$$$$$ Hopefully all that will set them back around $1800 or so. Karma, where are you? Do your stuff! Souff

Here's hoping that she cant deliver ..... and that the owners cop a really big vet bill for the C-section. Better yet, lets all pray for it to be in the middle of the night so they get the EMERGENCY C-section bill for large breeds. $$$$$$ And if she haemmorhages because of the oxytosin given, well then she will be spayed as well $$$$$$ Hopefully all that will set them back around $1800 or so. Karma, where are you? Do your stuff! Souff

No, we are all way too soft to do any bucketing and anyway, we wont be allowed to own entire dogs - the government will only let you keep the old and feeble desexed dogs. All entire dogs of breeding age must belong to the commune ..... for the greater good. And we will all be given little red books........ for our own good otherwise you will be fodder for the Peta firing squad. Welcome to the brave new world of dogs Australia! Souff

Yes, ANKC registered dogs are in the minority. Australia is overrun with crossbred mutts and designer dogs (the more expensive crossbred mutts) and poorly bred examples of a breed by people who say, "Oh no, we are not members of a dog club, we dont believe in all that showing and stuff!" Of course they are happy to take your money though and will often charge you more than what a registered breeder would charge you. "Come in sucker" is what is practised on many naive puppy buyers. Go and make friends with a breeder at a dog show. Learn from the breeders what their dogs are like. Offer to learn how to handle a dog at a show, or ask the breeder if they will show you how they train their dogs. Become an apprentice dog person and you can learn a lot about dogs. It will be education that you keep with you for life. Those of us who were lucky enough to be given this education from experienced breeders have found it to be incredibly useful. Souff

Souff has been thinking ...... A commune is what we need. Nobody owns any dogs, we all just borrow one when we feel the urge to breed a litter of puppies, for the greater good. Sure we pay a stud fee, it is for the greater good of the commune y'know. We dont sell puppies. Oh no, that would make it a commercial enterprise. We must hand our beautifully wormed and vaccinated little bundles back to the commune for the powers that be to select who should receive one of these little bundle to raise to adulthood. Then of course, they must part with it as it will be needed by the commune to give out All for the greater good. No abandonment of puppies. Maternal urges to reproduce will be satisfied. Oh and yes, the commune can run shows too. Only the worthy will be selected of course to do the handling of the dogs in the showring, and no personal pride must be on show. The ribbons are for the commune to be proud of, for the greater good. It is only a germ of an idea of course, but it would probably satisfy most of those who went to the rally last weekend, and of course, Ms Newkook from Peta. Come on now, add a bit more to this ... help me out, brain is hurting ... I think this could be made into a model that Victoria would love to put on show to the world, don't you? Souff

Yes, it is all designed to deter people from breeding dogs. Oscars Law included. We have been branded as lunatics touting conspiracy theories, but we are not. We are thinking people who know that there will be not much other than mutts and generic brown dogs in the future, and probably riddled with inherited diseases that will all be blamed back on to those "terrible dog breeders". Politicians will run with the issue that will sell well on the telly to a believing public. Add plenty of emotion to it and voila, it is a vote winner! They are not interested in the future of good dogs. Well, they might be when they find that they can no longer buy a cocker spaniel, a corgi, or some of the breeds with lesser numbers. Then we dog breeders who still have a couple of specimens of a particular breed can go public, get a high profile person alongside, and raise funds for the endangered species ....... just like the animal libbers are doing right now for their cause. Wonder how much money they collected at the rally ...... Souff

There is no difference in the eyes of the RSPCA and the AWL. If you sell 1 puppy in your life you are a commercial breeder because a commercial transaction has taken place. This applies to any animal that you breed, doesnt matter if it is a flea, a frog, a cat, a dog, a horse or a camel. That is it. Souff

GayleK asked the big question five pages ago and unless i'm blind i can't see anyone that has specifically answered it. Oscars Law should be a good thing. It's about stopping/improving large scale commercial breeding facilities and the sale of pets in pet shops. There would be many thousands of dogs around Australia that would benefit from these proposed changes and who knows, if Australia implements them perhaps other countries would follow? The greater good people. I may not have said it in this thread, but I have said it plenty of times before. LICENSE ALL BREEDERS. Then POLICE the bluddy laws that are already in place and police any new laws that relate to the licensing. As it stands at the moment the only breeders who can be traced easily are the registered breeders - the ones who are answerable to their governing authority. The others get off scot free and are not answerable to any body. That includes the mum and dad breeders who just want their pet to have a litter, and everyone else through to the biggest of puppy farmers (whatever they are by all the various crazy definitions) If you want to breed animals, then be responsible and be licensed. It is not rocket science, and it aint a perfect idea, but as things stand at the moment the good (registered) breeders are the only one who cop the flak!!! This crazy idea you Victorians have got about trying to shut down kennels, or telling councils not to approve breeding kennels, is totally counterproductive and can only lead to the problem being pushed underground. IT WILL DO NOTHING TO STOP MASS BREEDING OF ANIMALS. Flush them out into the open, licence them, and fine them hard if they are not licensed, or then shut them down for non-compliance. POLICE THE LAWS PROPERLY AND FAIRLY, have an appeals clause for those who are unfairly targetted, and you might get somewhere. You need a license to drive a car, you need a licence to shoot, to fish, to sell certain goods, and all of these have a followup penalty system. You should not be allowed to breed dogs unless you are licensed to breed dogs, imho. Do the wrong thing and expect to pay the fine. But make sure that any licensing scheme is policed by the POLICE, not the other lot. Souff

I heard of a similar situation in Queensland and yes, the owners did desex their dogs rather than pay thousands in fees to council. Tell her to let her breeding dogs live inside with her and rent out the council approved kennels .... if she can afford to build them. Souff

I missed it too. Can anyone tell me how Dr Chris defined a puppy farm? Souff

Yeah ..... (big sigh). The definition of a puppy farmer is about as clear as the definition of a BUNYIP. So now we are being told that the breeders of crossbred dogs couldn't be puppy farmers ..... "if they health test, keep their dogs in good conditions (both mentally and physically), give them regular, breed appropriate care," No mention of how many puppies are being churned out! No checks, nothing to answer for, nobody to answer to! ;): And these people seriously want us to believe that they are here to HELP the dogs? They surely must be joking. Souff

In what you call "ravings" there was mention that no right of appeal has been put forward with Oscar's law.. A basic in any democratic set of rules. Sounds sane enough to me. Souff

It might be you done, but just remember that the good breeders hold the dogs welfare as their highest priority. Good dogs need good breeders, and good dogs need a future that can only be provided by breeders. A rally in the city is all fine for PR for the animal activists, but is not fine to come on here and suggest that it is all about the dogs rights and not about breeders rights. Good breeders have rights too and I hope they flex their muscle to the Victorian Government, and soon. Souff

Are you sure? They are breeding cross bred dogs (read mutts) and have no code of ethics to answer to. They have nobody keeping an eye on how many litters they are breeding because there is nobody registering the pedigrees, because they are not paying any registration fees to any registry. They could be breeding every season and nobody knows nor cares. They are just the type of breeder that puppy buyers should be warned to stay away from .... they are answerable to nobody. Big statement to say that such a breeder is not a puppy farmer! Souff

The petshop chains, and the people who transport the dogs from the puppy farms to the pet shops, know that such legislation will harm their business big-time. And any local council in Australia would be able to enforce it if it was written into their local ordinances that live cats and dogs could not be sold at pet shops. Souff

:D While ever people like yourself have this attitude the great divide between animal activists and good dog breeders will continue to widen. The dogs rights are paramount in the minds of good breeders. And good breeders also have rights and these rights need to be respected otherwise you will find yourself living in a world of crook breeders and the dogs will be worse off. The good breeders will be gone - in part because their rights were trashed by over enthusiastic people who have not looked at the bigger picture. A bit of balance and respect please. Souff

Gayle, Whether we like it or not, these people have the trade laws on their side, and the trade laws are Federal laws, which, I am told, in a legal showdown, will take precedence over State laws. So trying to shut them down is a bit like trying to push water uphill. It ain't gonna happen. Should they be regulated and be called to account? Yes, most definitely. By whom? They dont qualify to be VCA breeders, because they are not breeding purebred dogs. Some other breeders dont qualify to be VCA breeders either because they are breeding dogs that are not an ANKC breed. They are still purebred dogs though. So why is the Victorian government not going to them and asking for the Code of Ethics under which they operate? Some of them actually do belong to organisations which have a Code of Ethics. I understand that in Victoria now, ALL dogs (irrespective of what breed or size or shape) must be microchipped as puppies by the breeder. So, somebody, somewhere, holds the key to the engine of all this ruckus: the database of microchips of all dogs in Victoria (well most of em one would think). In NSW it is the state government who holds this information. I understand that the Victorian Govt did not follow NSW lead and make the database a state resource. Pity. So when the Victorian Govt says that all breeders must be held to account for what they breed, they dont have the basic database from which to operate! Pfffft! What is it with you Victorians? Is it something in the water down there, or is it a lack of sunshine? Look, I think Victorians all need to settle down and take a good look at where you have put the wheels on the cart. From where I am sitting, you are all sitting on a cart where the wheels are not underneath, ready to roll. The cart cannot go anywhere. All the laws that you might dream up to get rid of puppy farms are not going to work because you have got the whole thing arse up. I dont like mass production of dogs any more than you do. I dont like seeing dogs go to the wrong homes - I have been cleaning up that mess for decades. But I am a realist and I know that to wave the big puppy farm stick and ban the building of kennels (which can be quite useful for other purposes) is not going to solve the problem. It is simply more likely to push the problems underground where there is no control and the animals will continue to suffer. Take a good look at the NSW Companion Animal Act and then ask yourself, "how can we apply this to Victoria". It has the basis for what you need in Victoria and it has a proven 15 years of operation behind it. NSW Is not free of puppy farms but is in a better position than Victoria. Souff

It's socialisation which is required for puppies. That's learning to form relationship with people. Both from people-contact at a critical early stage & from modelling from a socialised mother. This is a necessary base for later behaviours, for all breeds. As to research. From the University of Qld Vet Connect, Summer 2008: ...studies show there is a 'critical socialisation' period for puppies between 5 and 14 weeks of age, when it is essential puppies become familiar with a wide range of experieces. That is vital for forming proper social relationships with people and other dogs, later in life. If the puppies have not been socialised with people before 14 weeks of age, they are unable to form normal attachments with people. Socialisation in the early weeks is absolutely vital. That is without question. And good breeders, many of whom are here on DOL, can have kennels AND provide this socialisation as well. But not many will be wanting to put in an application to build kennels in country Victoria. Dogs need good dog breeders. Having kennels should not imply that they wont socialise their dogs and puppies. Souff

Ok no takers so far, so I will wade in with some first hand observations of these dogs ..... They miss out on getting their claws painted with nail polish. They miss out on wearing doggy pyjamas and other outfits modelled on humans clothing. They miss out on diamante collars. They miss out on fashion leads (although some of their show leads are very nice) They miss out on sleeping in plastic four poster beds. They miss out on having a fashion plate on the other end of the lead. They miss out on having their own unique food bowl and have to suffer the indignity of having their s/s bowl taken away from them soon after eating, so it can be properly cleaned and ready for the next meal. They miss out on being called 15 different cutesy-wutesy names that the owner changes in line with owners whims. Some miss out on going to shows if they are not good enough; but that is no biggy for them anyway. They dont miss out on being re-homed if that is appropriate, if the owner is the right candidate and can supply all that is given in this establishment and has a good track record. They dont miss out on play, walks, swims, and great camaraderie with both humans and dogs. They dont miss out on vaccinations and mainstream medication and veterinary treatment. They dont miss out on massage and physiotherapy and herbal goodies and alternative therapies when needed. They dont miss out on human interaction and learning discipline both from the pack leader (the human) and from the other dogs (as youngsters). These are much loved and confident and valuable dogs, for many reasons. But it is not the love that is lavished on many pet dogs today - a love that is almost smothering in some cases and is often stemming from the owners need to give love to something or someone, not necessarily the other way round. This is a love that is combined with respect, both for the individual dog and for the breed and for the function of the breed ..... and all else that is this breed. It is the healthy love and respect of a dog as a wonderful animal - a love that many dogs in pet homes today are missing out on. Souff Crisovar directed this question to me, and I answered as best I could, he/she responded again, then upon reflection, I agreed with Crisovar in that in this particular establishment, the dogs may not be missing out on anything! I don't think anyone would think a dog that didn't get your first list of 'stuff' was missing out on anything important, and for the record my dogs don't get them either (well, except maybe the names :D). I agree that some dogs in pet homes' needs aren't met, but that's not the discussion here, that's just you trying to make pet owners feel inferior to breeders. You probably took pleasure in writing that 'cheeky' list. short-step- I was trying to 'get it', that's why I'm still here, but I give up, I'll leave it all to you breeders, because there's no way a pet-owner could even come close to knowing what is best for a dog. I never tried to insinuate that I 'knew best', in fact I mentioned quite a few times, that my knowledge was limited. I was trying to learn. Now I think I've learned why I usually stay away from controversy. Sorry if I missed your reply Pip, I have just been popping in to the puter between a million other things today. There are plenty of people who assume that a dog's emotional needs are not being met if the dogs are housed in kennels. The problem is that those people are often basing this accusation on THEIR knowledge of what they take to be THEIR dogs emotional needs. There can be a huge difference in dog's attitudes and "emotional needs" - from breed to breed, and also within a breed. Some dogs need a LOT of human interaction - they depend on it and this can be applied to a lot of the smaller breeds, BUT not all! I know of some smaller dogs who really dont give two hoots if their owner is around much at all, other than to supply shelter and food. And many of us have met the aloof breeds who need to be respected, but not cuddled. Their requirements of humans are totally different to that say of a Cavalier King Charles. Anyone embarking on this subject really needs to do their research very thoroughly ... a lot more thoroughly than many of these people have done. On another aspect of all this, while driving around this pm, Souff thought: "Wonder would happen if I put in a building application to build a kennel that could house 40 dogs". Well I kneow what the answer would be from my local council, a resounding NO, so I would have to move this hypothetical application to another area, so let say we make it country Victoria. We would quickly have the illegal midinght raiders from ALV right on the case, it would be splashed all over the net, blah blah blah. This bad person wants to have 40 dogs!!!!! How very dare they !!!!! What they and their breeding opponent mates fail to realise that I may not have 40 dogs there at all. I might have 6 or 8 breeding dogs, at best. Souff tends to keep the oldies and they need somewhere to sleep too, my bedroom is no longer big enough. Sometimes get talked into taking in somebody else's oldies too .... But because I would have some empty runs, guess who would be available to take in the neighbours animals when the bushfires hit? Guess who could help out with accommodation for the animal rescue services when a crisis hit them? If the local pound burnt to the ground one night, they might even be able to ask me if I could take in a few boarders. I have heard NONE of these community needs being covered in any of the many posts I have read where people are wanting to get rid of puppy farmers, but I know of many breeders who have helped out communities in crisis all over Australia. They had secure places for animals in crisis and they willingly offered those places to their community. Where I live there was a major crisis if a bushfire happened at a weekend. Nobody had the keys to the local pound, vets where shut, etc. There was a great scream in the papers later. We had dozens of suburbs surrounded and cut off by bushfires and WE HAD NO EMERGENCY ACCOMMODATION FOR ANIMALS IN OUR AREA! Oh dear, we forgot about that didn't we. Who helped out in that crisis? The local dog breeders and boarding kennels. But, you know what, you can bet your cotton pickin' boots that Souff would be immediately labelled as a PUPPY FARMER if that application for a 40 dog kennel went to council. Oh yeah. The more I think about it, the harder it is to take these people and this rally seriously. Narrow minded at best, dangerous at worst. Souff

Ok no takers so far, so I will wade in with some first hand observations of these dogs ..... They miss out on getting their claws painted with nail polish. They miss out on wearing doggy pyjamas and other outfits modelled on humans clothing. They miss out on diamante collars. They miss out on fashion leads (although some of their show leads are very nice) They miss out on sleeping in plastic four poster beds. They miss out on having a fashion plate on the other end of the lead. They miss out on having their own unique food bowl and have to suffer the indignity of having their s/s bowl taken away from them soon after eating, so it can be properly cleaned and ready for the next meal. They miss out on being called 15 different cutesy-wutesy names that the owner changes in line with owners whims. Some miss out on going to shows if they are not good enough; but that is no biggy for them anyway. They dont miss out on being re-homed if that is appropriate, if the owner is the right candidate and can supply all that is given in this establishment and has a good track record. They dont miss out on play, walks, swims, and great camaraderie with both humans and dogs. They dont miss out on vaccinations and mainstream medication and veterinary treatment. They dont miss out on massage and physiotherapy and herbal goodies and alternative therapies when needed. They dont miss out on human interaction and learning discipline both from the pack leader (the human) and from the other dogs (as youngsters). These are much loved and confident and valuable dogs, for many reasons. But it is not the love that is lavished on many pet dogs today - a love that is almost smothering in some cases and is often stemming from the owners need to give love to something or someone, not necessarily the other way round. This is a love that is combined with respect, both for the individual dog and for the breed and for the function of the breed ..... and all else that is this breed. It is the healthy love and respect of a dog as a wonderful animal - a love that many dogs in pet homes today are missing out on. Souff

It is a huge mistake to compare Australia with Europe. The shortage of available land and the climate in northern Europe is extremely restrictive for many things. Souff

This section of Victorian law needs to be repealed and replaced with something workable and in step with the rest of Australia, and also written in such a way that gives some credit to the professional opinion of veterinarians. I think they still take an oath to do the best for the animal's welfare, don't they? The professional opinion of a human doctor is taken into account by those who apply the law re humans. Same is needed for animals. Politicans are not experts on animal matters. Far from it. They should be taking their cue from veterinarians and registered breeders, not from political activists. jmho as always. Souff

Souff, that is why I mentioned in another post, that any definition of puppy farm would be difficult to create due to differing individual circumstances. I totally agree that 'quantity' cannot be the ONLY factor considered, but realistically there has to be an 'upper' limit doesn't there?? Even the most experienced breeder with unlimited funds, unlimited time and good management skills couldn't possibly provide 50 dogs on their own property with the required exercise, mental stimulation and affection they need on top of basic environmental needs. But, then I guess it comes down to what people believe a dog needs, I personally believe they all deserve to feel belonging and certainty. And, I still want to know what 'larger numbers of dogs' are...whether or not it is the 'focus', I think it is an important factor. Also, I too, like the idea of a 'fair go', but all too often this is taken advantage of. I'd rather focus on giving the dogs a fair go at a better life. It was your question to Oakway about large numbers of dogs that worries me. A ratio of dogs to carer is probably a better way to go. I saw a council giving approval to a kennel for (I think) 10 dogs. They did not factor in puppies. They did not factor in any dogs that were there during the day for training, but home at night. No variables! Just hard and fast FIXED NUMBERS! Wrong on so many counts! I can take you to a state-of-the-art kennel that can easily accommodate 40 dogs. They rarely have that many. There are separate puppy areas, a kitchen for the dogs, a clinic area, and shower/toilets area for the staff. They have staff and family members who take many of the dogs on runs to the dam, out for drives in the car, and all of the dogs are socialised. They have exercise areas that would be the envy of some sporting facilities. Some of the dogs alternate their time in the kennels and down at the main house, or go home with staff. Puppies of various ages are run on, for various reasons, and are well socialised from an early age. Some of the dogs go overseas and live with different people on a lease basis, and then return! How many dogs can you do that with? Only those that are loved and confident and well cared for. You can see these dogs at shows as confident, well adjusted and loving animals. This is not a puppy farm. It is a specialist animal establishment and a very valuable one at that. Yet on paper you would view it as a puppy farm. The laws that Victorian politicians could bring in as a result of the emotive rally in Melbourne at the weekend put all this at risk. There would be no benefit for dogs with the loss of an establishment such as this one. No benefit at all. Just a huge loss for this breed of dog and for Australia generally. Souff

No Mita, they did have other options open to them - discussion, education and giving a warning. The RSPCA does not go for the throat on every case they are notified about, but they seemingly did with this one. To the best of my knowledge none of the above 3 options were used with Judy Gard. They just rocked up with the warrant and the film crew! If I am wrong on that approach, please correct me. Souff