Souff

I have replied in green font.

There are still plenty left out there Toy Dog, and a lot have also moved to the rural areas. City refugees, the locals call them. I dont think we forget at all, we just dont remember it often enough. My point in all of this is that we cannot make laws - laws that will work properly that is - based on our own narrow views of what will work best for dogs, views that are often based on what we see as good for our type of dogs. What will be excellent for a Yorkshire Terrier could be entirely wrong for a big St Bernard, or an Australian Kelpie, or a Scottish Terrier, or a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, or one of the many many diverse types of dogs that are in the dog world. Kennels with wooden floors do some dogs no harm - because they dont pee or crap in them - in fact some of those dogs will only go IN the kennel if there is a storm around. They prefer to lie outside the kennel in the dirt and sleep under the stars!!! And if they have a natural layer of insulation under the skin, or a natural double coat, then this is perfectly OK. We should not be demanding that such dogs sleep on concrete, or on beds that they will probably destroy. Dirt 'floors' are warmer than concrete floors, and these dogs know this. Other dogs, particularly small breeds who dont like to go outside when it is cold or wet, will have wooden or dirt floors stinking in no time! These are the dogs that need to be in areas that are easily cleaned, and concrete surfaces or tiled surfaces that have good sealed grout, are the way to go for these dogs. But we cannot make legislation to suit every dogs nuances as to what type of floor that they prefer to sleep on. By the same token I am distinctly uncomfortable about any legislation that says ALL dogs in kennels must be on CONCRETE floors. Blanket legislation never works well for those it is supposed to be helping. One size definitely does not fit all. Dogs are a very diverse bunch. So are humans. I think Victorians need to take a step back and take a good long look at the animal legislation that is already in place and make it work, before they go anywhere near making more legislation. Souff

Yes, and it is a body such as a COUNCIL that SHOULD be doing the REGULATING that is required by law. The downside of all that regulation is that the Mums and Dads out there will stop microchipping/desexing/registering the halfbred pups in the backyard. Where people advertise their dogs is up to them. The most effective places that people should be advertising, if they are serious about getting homes for the pups, are in the places where buyers will be looking. If they don't get homes for the pups (which through no fault of their own have been born and need homes) ..... what then? The pups become half grown dogs without training and proper socialisation get dumped at the pound? Or end up in the hands of rescuers who do their best to supply the training and socialisation that should have been supplied a few months previously? You see Mortonplace, I am concerned about the END RESULT for all dogs that are born, not just those pups that are born at a registered breeders place. The registered breeders I know rarely advertise to get homes for pups. The advertising of their kennels over many years means that people order a pup well in advance and they dont have any leftover to find homes for. Souff

But every word of it oh so true. What Souff has said could have referred to any of our working dogs. Where they cared for..you betcha ... without those dogs ........?????????????????. Crap, Erny says! ;) In the eyes of some of the people who post on forums like DOL, yeah, it would be viewed as crappy and in some ways it does not relate to the subject of puppy farms. However, in some ways it does. We all need to build bridges of understanding if we are to achieve a good result for dogs. I personally believe that the people who want to see change need to learn a whole lot more about dogs, and about all the differences that make up the dog world. In recent years some of the saddest, most neglected dogs I have seen were not in breeding establishments .... they were desexed "pets" that had been purchased and so had never whelped or sired a puppy in their lives. They were bored to tears and living in the wrong environment for their breed, with owners who could never give them the amount of stimulation and exercise that their genes demanded they have, every day of their lives. There is no law against this type of animal ownership and we see it all the time in suburbs and towns. It is psychological cruelty to dogs, dished out by "good" owners. Their handsome markings and friendly nature as pups means that these dogs sell quickly as pets. We have seen TV vets with them as their pets and so the whole world wanted one like that. The animal behaviourists know the dogs I am talking about. There is such a lot to learn, and making more and more laws about dogs is not going to teach anyone very much at all. Souff

sorry but ;) not that im saying anything against it i just had no idea. Toy Dogs, I am very glad that you said this, and I understand that many people who own pets in the city, or own small breeds of dog, wouldn't have had any idea either. The dog world is made up of many different people with many different ideas and attitudes because the dogs themselves are so hugely varied and what works for Chihuahuas in town or the city, is not going to work for a bunch of bigger dogs out there in the country areas. I have a friend on a property who has electric fencing on almost every fence, down really low on the fence. I asked him why he put it that low down on the fence. He looked at me as if I was a dumb town person and said, i] "To keep the wombats from digging buddy great holes under the fences, holes that will let the dogs out by morning!"[/i] Now if I was a concerned animal rights person I would have been horrified to see all that electric fencing and I might have accused him of all sorts of cruel practices. But in fact he was SAFEGUARDING his dogs! Apparently the wombats are not harmed by the kick from the tape, and simply go off and dig a hole somewhere else. To achieve tolerance and understanding in this wonderful old world of ours, we have to learn to see the other persons point of view, BEFORE we put the boot in. When I was a kid, we had wooden kennels for the dogs outside; we put a wheat bag in the kennel for their comfort and the ungrateful dogs would constantly drag it outside into the mud! The dogs were tied up to a big stake outside the kennel on a long length of dog chain so they could go outside to pee. Their food bowl was often an old saucepan and it was bashed and dented and some of the clowns would occasionally carry it round or put it on their head! Water was in a concrete trough, always plenty of water. We kids used to rake up the poo but never ever washed the area down - the rain did that. If it was drought, well... we just had to wait for the rain. No parvo. No disease. But there were fleas, and we had didnt have any nice flea products back then, so we used to sit in the dirt with the dogs on a nice sunny day and pick off the fleas and kill em on a rock. We sometimes sneaked a small tin of Arnotts biscuits out with us to share with the dog while we "did the fleas". Charming! Were our dogs loved? You bet! Were they healthy? Absolutely! Greatest joy after school was to the let the dogs off and go for a run down to the creek! Or to go down to the neighbour's horse paddock and mess around for a few hours while the dogs went rabbiting. They never strayed away - one whistle and they would bolt back to us. These were not Chihuahuas, or Pomeranians, or indoor dogs. These were dogs that were designed to live a healthy life in very basic conditions. Just like dogs in Africa have lived for centuries. And like dogs in many other countries. Not an ounce of concrete within cooee of the dogs place. No cosy dog beds. No kongs, but plenty of fresh meaty bones. Some of the dogs have natural double coats that are designed for sleeping outdoors in very cold climates. I just cringe when I see pet owners putting fancy fabric coats on such dogs as the poor dog's thermostat must go into overdrive! I am not for one minute making excuses for people keeping dogs in bad conditions, but I do think that people who want to get involved in animal welfare issues first need to spend a lot more time with breeders of a wide variety of dogs. The dog world is very diverse and what works well for one breed simply does not apply, or is totally unwarranted, for another breed. For the record, my dogs today do not sleep in wooden kennels surrounded by dirt (or mud) and are not chained up to a steel post. And they don't eat out of saucepans. They are totally different breeds and have totally different needs. But the dogs of my past were loved, were healthy, and were very happy dogs. I have absolutely no problem when I look at the dogs in the dirt yards in those photos. They have more freedom than a farm dog on a chain. However, I would caution anyone about removing a dog from that environment - to do so is an act of cruelty in itself. Psychological cruelty. It cannot be turned into a household pet because the life it has is the life it knows and is conditioned to. I absolutely shudder when I read that a number of dogs were taken from kennels on a property - it is akin to taking in a wild animal and expecting to train it like a new puppy. It is mental cruelty perpetuated on an animal ... by people who claim they are helping the dogs. Too sad for words. And, for the record, I have no problem with the appropriate use of electric fencing - if it used to keep animals safe. Souff

Sad isnt it its a joke really Atleast you have tryed but yes i do belive stress is a killer.. Sorry SOUFf...l dont think the word regulate was a badly choosen word for all sites INCLUDEing petklink... Regulate as in makeing sure the pups on the site are DESEXED...microchipped and above board..Nothing wrong with trying is there? And before you say that cant happen take this on board please adds in local papers were regulated and had checks placed on them to make sure they were licenced to sell pups. Yeap even in the wellington shire WOW amazeing hey That is interesting re a newspaper laying down the conditions that pups put up for sale must be desexed first. I know more than one vet who will NOT desex puppies at that age, and they have the backing of their profession on this matter so the newspaper would not get my ads. If the newspaper owner is OK with losing business then that is OK for them, and newspapers are going out backwards on every level anyway. They used to make a motza on the pages and pages of advertising. Not any more. The internet has them stymied. Souff is a firm believer in pups being desexed - at the appropriate age for the individual puppy and no newspaper clerk will ever change my mind on that, but it is highly doubtful that I would be giving them any business anyway. Selling out of the back of the car at the beach actually holds more appeal than talking to newspaper people! ;) Re the internet, that is a whole other story. If Petlink were to close tonight, or start to enforce rules on people, there will be another similar site set up within 24 hours and people will just use that. Sorry to put such a dampener on things, but that is how it is with the net. Very very difficult to police - so you might as well make the net work for good, rather than for evil - I think Batman once said that. The net is a very useful tool that can be used to educate people and get a good message out there. Why dont you use Petlink to do just that? Other people and organisations have done so and the Canine Councils used to always have a message on the Trading Post site (havent looked lately) and this is a classic example of using the places where your enemy hangs out uses to get your message across. It is taking the fight up to them, and the public get to READ your message on the enemy's territory. Smart thinking - it is a tactic that gets results where people are fighting for a better world. There is more than one way of skinning the cat, somebody else once said. Souff

Thanks for the link Steve. That gives me a fair idea of what standard conditions are and how to stay away from being substandard .....

Steve, Souff is one of the slower ones so I have to ask: What is the definition of "Standard Conditions" in which one should be breeding puppies? You see, once I know that, well then I will make sure that I never breed puppies in those "substandard conditions". thanks, Souff

为更大利益 LOL Damn! I have no idea what you have just said! Interpreter please!

Really, I thought it was more SWF thing? My white poodle x never had it though. Also I don't see it on many yellow labs or goldies etc but perhaps that is because it is easier to wipe away? Some white cats have tear staining too. Many of the white dogs get it, and yet others are not affected. I dont know what the cause it but unless there is infection vets will tell you that it is not a health issue. Souff

No shooting. Souff just wishes them all many many large vet bills for emergency C-sections and spaying for bitches who haemmorhage during/after the C-section. And that their pups fail to thrive. Tends to take the fun out of breeding puppies and consumes credit cards whole. Just for your education that staining around the eyes is from the tear ducts and happens naturally on most dogs. You get to see it on the white dogs but on the darker dogs you simply don't notice it. If there is no infection it is not a health hazard - it is usually cosmetic only and the area can be easily cleaned with the right products. Souff

If you are talking about my post on Finnland, I think you missed the message. 1. ban pet shop sales. 2. elevate and promote ANKC breeders as the best place to go to buy a pup. Not legislate, no where does she talk about extensive legislation. She talks about creating a different value system, you can not legislate a change of values . l still belive that stopping live pets sold in petshops is a huge start....After all its the inpulsive buy that sells most pups .in petshops..isnt it?? The trading post takes adds via emails only now in vic so ive been told?? So the desexing law before council reg should be put into place that will eventually kill the breedin g of x breed and unreg pups. And petlink could also be regulated.With all the above being done petlink wouldnt be used to sell pups after time What is the point in shutting down Petlink, or regulating Petlink, or any of the other sites like Petlink? Anyone can set up another site like that, in the middle of the night if they wish. Such is the internet and the freedoms that Australian soldiers died for! Petlink is used by registered breeders as well as others. It is a site where people who are looking to buy a pet can see a whole range of ads and make up their own minds. Stop trying to shoot the messenger! Aim at the source of the problem instead. Encourage people to advertise with as much detail as possible and they are more easily traceable!!! Close sites like Petlink and YOU WILL FIND MORE OF THEM SELLING PUPS OUT OF THE BOOT OF A CAR, or worse, AT THE PUB ON FRIDAY NIGHT!!! Some of you people are talking like we live in the backwoods of communist China! We do not live in communist China, or any other communist country for that matter, we live in Australia and we enjoy and we MUST RETAIN freedom of choice. People have the freedom to use the internet as they choose and they should be encouraged to use it responsibly. Souff

The case is the supposed lack of facilities. The facilities were found for both of the abovementioned cases. Large numbers of dogs were siezed in both cases. This is the organisation which has to find ways to cope with such situations. Short of bringing in the army, nobody else is going to have the facilities to do the job for them. Souff

Resources. They don't have the facilities to hold all the dogs. They touched on that on the 7PM Project last night. Not the case. Look at the large numbers of poodles that were siezed in the case in Queensland. Yes, they needed help but help was found. In another case over 100 Chis were siezed in a joint state operation. Not easy but to clean out large operations it can be done and has been done. Souff

yes - in Victoria someone has to actually witness the abuse before the RSPCA can act. That is the law. I know this because I reported my neighbour once - they needed me to say that I could see that the dogs had not shelter, not just that I believed they didn't. Again, the question goes unaswered. What is the alternative? Megan, Are you for real? If I phone the local police and say that I believe there is a car crash down the road, are they going to jump in the cars and come down to see? If I phone the police and say that I think a man is murdering his wife over at No.23 they probably would not come down to check that out either. Abuse of animals has to be witnessed before you can call the RSPCA. Lord knows they get enough calls from people who are hell bent on revenge ... and they know this and they waste their time attending those premises very often. Nobody wants to see puppy farms and cruelty to animals. But as I have said before, under the Federal laws these are legitimate businesses and they have the right to trade, and this will not change. They will continue to trade. You asked for an alternative. Many alternatives have been put forward in this thread so the question has not gone unanswered at all. I would encourage anything that makes puppy farms MORE VISIBLE, and more regulated, in an effort to help the dogs. We have health laws re food outlets. Have you seen the recent exposes on fast food outlets .... all the rat dirt and cockies being shown on television? NAME THEM AND SHAME THEM. That is the name of the game and then people dont want to do business with these dirty rats. And it works! With the puppy farms, NAME AND SHAME those pet shops that buy from the PUPPY FARMS! NAME the firms that transport the dogs from the PUPPY FARMS to the PET SHOPS! Keep the pressure on the politicians and the local councils to ban the sale of cats and dogs from pet shops in their areas. Keep the pressure on the councils as to why they havent reported animal cruelty to the RSPCA. Cut off the income supply to the puppy farmers and you will be doing serious damage to puppy mills. More legislation via something like Oscars Law is not the way to go. There is plenty of legislation already and people need to make sure that it is USED PROPERLY. As I keep saying, over and over, when you legislate against stuff like this, YOU DRIVE IT UNDERGROUND and the problem becomes very much harder to police and control. Look at illegal drugs. How many years and deaths will it take for people to realise that banning the use of substances is NOT the answer. Illegality just provides a very lucrative income stream for organised crime and makes it very, very difficult to police ..... and does sweet bugger all in preventing people dying from drug overdoses, and does nothing to stop a bright mind being turned into a schizophrenic maelstrom from the use of "social" drugs. Make it legal and focus on educating and advocating against drug use. Income stream for organised crime dries up; that has to be a bonus. It is not that different with the puppy farms. Line them up on the horizon and start shooting (metaphorically speaking) but keep them in full view and work to punch big holes in their dirty trade. with the NAME & SHAME techniques. They work well when used! Souff

Many people believe the best and then later find out the real agenda. They feel gullible when they realise the truth and the far reaching and damaging effects of some of the activist organisations. Souff used to be conned by real estate agents, and other sales people. They were very good at putting a positive spin on things that had a very different message underneath, and then later, when I discovered their true agenda, I felt gullible. Nothing wrong with feeling gullible, and plenty of people do feel that way once they know the true message behind some of the organisations whose front says they are helping animals. We all want to help animals. But denying them a good future is not helping, it is damage that once done, can NEVER be undone. Once gone, many dog breeds will join the hundreds of other species that have been wiped out. You can go down that path if you wish, but I wont be and I will continue to tell others that that path leads to destruction of dog breeds. Souff

I don't think breeders are being dismissive of the points of view of other people. Those who went to the rally, and all dog owners and breeders for that matter, have a right to know the underlying agenda of ALV is. Or would you prefer that they didnt know that?

I think you need the link so you can read it for yourself, direct from their site: http://www.alv.org.au/about.php Animal Liberation of Victoria (ALV) ... in their own words.

This is the ANKC statement. How close are they sticking to this? Nekhbet, Tell me which bits you have concerns with and I will be happy to pass it on to ANKC and ask why they are falling down on the job. Souff

Double post!!! grrrr

Who said I wanted to win any argument? I prefer to spend my time promulgating educational material and then let other thinking people make up their own minds.

Nobody said anything about nut cases. The stated aims of the organisation says enough in itself.

De-sexing would have been a more cost effective road for them to take. Or abortion. But some people only seem to learn the hard way. Souff

Souff forgot to bold the bit about "SPECIEST ATTITUDES AND PRACTICES" so make sure you read it and have a little think about that one too. It is all straight from the Bible of PETA, and slavishly practiced by ALL of the animal liberation groups and their extremely naive followers. But dont feel that you are alone in being gullible, they have conned plenty of others too. Souff

Just so we are clear this is from the ALV website. Souff did the bolding. Animal Liberation Victoria's STATEMENT OF PURPOSES are as follows: TO ABOLISH THE PROPERTY STATUS OF ANIMALS Animal Liberation Victoria endorses an animal rights position which maintains that all sentient beings, regardless of species, have the right to be treated as independent entities, and not as the property of others. TO ABOLISH, AND NOT MERELY REGULATE, INSTITUTIONLISED ANIMAL EXPLOITATION Animal Liberation Victoria supports only those campaigns and positions that explicitly promote the abolitionist agenda, placing primary emphasis on animals in factory farms and abattoirs. We recognise we will not abolish animal exploitation and the property status of animals overnight, but will encourage at all times the adoption of a vegan lifestyle as the most appropriate course to achieve these aims. TO ABOLISH HUMAN'S SPECIEST ATTITUDES AND PRACTICES Just as we reject racism, sexism, ageism and homophobia, we reject speciesism. The species of sentient beings is no more a reason to deny any individual the basic right not to be the property of others, than is race, sex, age or sexual orientation a reason to deny membership in the moral community to other humans. TO ENCOURAGE AND NURTURE ANIMAL RIGHTS EDUCATION Animal Liberation Victoria commits itself to public education concerning the rights of animals and the importance of defending any other animal whose language communication is different to our own, and who are thus unable to 'speak' for themselves. TO ENDORSE THE PRINCIPLE OF NON-VIOLENCE All campaigns and positions of Animal Liberation Victoria use non-violence as their guiding principle and rule of operation. Our work fosters giving aid and rescue to any animal who is suffering in pain and left unattended.