Souff

I own a dobie with a tail and I agree with this comment whole heartedly. I've had so many of the general public, comment on how good my girl is and how good she looks yet last year when I took my old girl who was a Red with a docked tail out (PTS last year) I had people cross the street, yet I would have trusted my old girl over my girl now. People say my now dobie looks so friendly. I think it's the tail that does it. Yes, I think there is something in the perception that the dog looks friendlier. Personally I have nothing but huge respect for a dog whose appearance tells me that it is "on duty" and I never challenge that dog and open gates uninvited etc. I wonder if burglars and the like are lulled into a false sense of security by a long waggy tail.

I hear you Mim, I hear you. I really feel bad for the Pembrokes with full tail but at least you have the natural bobtail in your breed. I think I will always remain angry at the way the public was deceived with the lies on their television screens and in the media generally. Banding the tails of newborns is not cruel and there was excellent video footage available to show the banding procedure being done while pups were suckling and sleepy but the public was not to be shown that. We got it to the politicians but Labor had a majority in most parliaments so we were whistling in the wind, pretty much. However, the Minister for Agriculture in NSW (Mr Ian MacDonald) told the truth when he stated in Parliament when the law was being passed in the NSW Upper House (so you can read it in Hansard) : he stated it was a law based on "contemporary community expectations". This was NOT a law that was needed because of cruelty. It was a law based on another powerful man's vendetta and it was heavily publicised with lies, and he got away with it because all of the publicity was targetted right at people's emotions. Using words and phrases like "mutilation" and "fashion statement". Yet, "contemporary community expectations" is another description of "fashion"!!! The fact that very few other countries have followed Australia's lead states an awful lot. Only a very small number of countries overall have legislated against docking. I have been in some of the countries where docking was banned and it is a very unpopular law amongst the people who work with dogs. Watch this space. Changes of governments could well bring changes in the future. Under the old laws, we had choice. With the current laws, we lost choice. So much for living in a democratic country. I will never support anything that is cruel to animals - but docking or banding, when done at the proper time and done by qualified people, is not cruel and in my view tail docking or banding should be restricted and it should be de-criminalised. Souff loves Pembrokes and hates to see that heavy tail behind dragged behind them on the ground because of this law. Tail damage is cruelty and it is preventable. Souff

:D Rather odd comparisons. I always thought you have to sell something before you could make a profit, unless you go professional of course in such activities.

You and me both! Look, I love the Rotties and the Boxers and the Dobes and a few others with their tails docked. And I know I am not alone there. Some of the longer coated breeds with a fluffy long tail flopping around, well, under all that hair, does it really matter? I don't have to pay too much attention to it, but the groomer does. The breeds with the natural bobtail gene have at least got that avenue, but breeders do need to be careful with how they breed. But at least they can tell people that they can buy a dog, with or without a tail! Stuff the stupid law and its supporters, nature has it covered in some breeds. At the end of the day, the tail must be what is best for the dog. Not what it is best for the critics to moan about. Souff just loves to see some know-it-all scowling at a dog with a short tail. I had one such person raging on at me last year and I told her the truth - that the dog had broken the tail and that the amputation cost $330. She didn't believe me and still said it had been docked. Whatever! "Go get the RSPCA and I will get a copy of the vets bill for you." If people have got nothing better to do than to go around criticising the length of puppy dogs tails then I suggest that they get on a plane and go to a country where they can do something useful. :D Souff edited for S&G

No, not necessarily. The aim was to make sure that people went home with dog that was right for them. He could have got a lot more for some pups but often less because the pup was going to long term owners who knew what they were doing. He had more friends than you could poke a stick at. Boarded your dog when you went on holidays. Helped people learn about showing and breeding if that was what they wanted to do. But if he had a pup in the litter that he knew was worth top dollar, he would make sure that he got top dollar for the pup AND still make sure that it went to the right owner ... eventually. He often had a few months enjoying the pup first. Souff

Souff's accountant has been asking that question for years!

The other part of the culture that you forgot to add is the Limited Register. It is an integral part of your 4th point and, if I am not mistaken, is a purely Australian invention. It is why there are so many unregistered breeders out there today breeding good quality pups that should be registered dogs. The Limited Register has gutted the number of good quality breeding dogs that could be keeping the future of their breed alive. Souff

It can be quite deliberate to leave out something like price. Some breeders want to know that price is not your main focus. I used to know a breeder who would get you over for a cuppa and a play with the pups and then ask you how much you expected to pay. He always got good prices ...... and dogs were matched with people. In my book that is best practice. Some buyers who were told to go elsewhere Souff

Just WHO wrote all this horrible stuff !!!! What about all that unconditional love that the dog gives to BOTH sexes in the house? Huh? What about that???? And the dog doesn't charge anything for it!!! It is given FREE - often with slobbery kisses. Isn't the dog excited to see BOTH partners when they come home after a long stressful day? Dogs are de-stressors and that is much more important than all the money that she spends on the dog. Think about all the money he COULD have been spending on anti-depressants and valium and prozac and the like!!!! Dammit women, SHRED those groomers bills and toss out those dog boutique dockets before you get home - why, HE can spend almost as much at the hairdressers these days! But hey, get that dog a really special bed that you can put right next to the sofa with a pigs ear, so there is none of this doggy-in-the-middle stuff. Just remember to get rid of the price tag first! Souff

Souff isn't THAT dedicated!

Breed dedication? Sheer practicality for rural areas. The practice of spanning is now possibly an endangered skill. I shudder when I see broad chests and briskets on terrier breeds that are supposed to be bred to go to ground. A terrier stuck in a fox hole or rabbit hole (which are often criss-crossed with gnarled underground tree roots that do not move; and where there are rocks that jut out at angles) is a terrier that needs to be dug out, and often the ground is hard and stony in the Australian bush, it is not soft loam that one might like the dog to be stuck in. Dangerous for the dog, and no fun for the person who has to dig the dog out! Underground is no place for a terrier with a broad chest and the old terrier people knew this. Thank Evans for the Terrierman site and for interested people like yourself. Souff

OK. Good luck. ' No luck needed. No tissues any more either. You learn to block emotion when you hand over society's problem to the vet. There are no farewells. Too many times, KoalatheBear, too many times. Souff

Not preaching Souff - just observing. If I was preaching, I'd be telling people what I think they should be doing. I was merely remarking that you have your way of dealing with a horrible situation and others have a different way of addressing the same situation. People have to act in accordance with their own convictions and I don't think any of us are in a position to posit without doubt that one approach is right and the other is wrong. I think we're all in agreement that that it's a very heart-breaking problem ... Yes I will remember that next time I see mongrel puppies being given away free, or maybe when I have to pick up the pieces of yet another disaster somewhere.

Yes, I have some issues with it, particularly with small breeds and particularly in the case of females. HOWEVER ..... I have come around to the idea of doing the medium and large breed male pups early if they are not going to a breeder. I am quite OK now with them going to the vets first, then to their new home. No balls. I now have no problem with that at all. See, Souff is getting into progressive thinking. Would be nice if this giver-of-puppies had done that, ah, but there I go again ..... sigh. Pigs will fly first. They dont vaccinate or microchip, so wake up Souff, why would they desex the pups before giving them away to a good home .... Silly Souff! Only reputable breeders (who spend money) do that!

You are preaching to the choir KoalatheBear. Its all been done for many years now and continues to be done. End result? I believe the supply of unwanted pups is increasing, not decreasing. I would be careful using the starfish analogy: in a plague they do a lot of damage. Souff

Yes indeed, preaching to the choir. This is after all, a forum for purebred dogs issues. But at the same time there is a message out there that it NOT OK to take on these pups because whilever we suckers take these pups off their hands, the demand is there for the supply to continue. Leave the givers/sellers to have 6 or 8 half grown crossbred dogs in their backyard, with no market, and they might finally get the message that what they are doing is wrong. Souff

Christina and Poodlefan, As the one who posted the comment that started the controversy, I totally agree with what you have said in these posts. I have done it, most breeders and owners of purebred dogs have done it, and most of us probably did it out of disgust for the human who had the pups to give away or sell. I could go out on any given day, and come home with a pup from similar circumstances, such is the prevalence of the unwanted pups out there. I walk past and leave them there now, probably sounds selfish but I have more than done my bit to combat this problem and there have been all sorts of efforts thrown at it, but 20 years or so on, the problem is still there and flourishing. The stories are still much the same. The visiting dog story is to absolve themselves of any responsibility they have to keep entired dogs away from entire bitches. Funny how the dog just happened to visit at the fertile time of the bitches season - that must have been coincidence of course. Truth is, that they are too lousy, or too lazy, or too whatever, to go and get their dogs desexed. Nine times out of ten, the parents dogs themselves were accidents, often given to the current owners because they were unwanted pups. I am not angry with the OP, not at all. My comment was to highlight that these lowlifes are still doing the same old thing, and far too many pups and dogs are euthanased as a result of these stupid and immoral people. Sellers/givers of unwanted pups do not give a stuff about issues such as temperament or inherited conditions! Why should they? Because NOBODY demands that they do! They are free to pass on all manner of horrible health problems but because the dogs will never be seen at dog shows, so Jemima and co wont be writing up about it and alerting the public via television screens all over the world, and no doubt making a nice pile from the royalties at the same time. Sellers/givers are free to continue to just give away mongrel pups .... and continue to give away problems and all responsibility for those problems. As long as people continue to feel sorry for the cute pups ..... Souff now just glares at the owner and walks away. Their litters are rarely small. These sellers/givers are 99% of the reason why there are so many dogs on death row, or sitting in pounds and shelters and in foster homes, waiting for the chance to have a forever home, and some get really screwed up along the way because of the changes and instability in their lives. Not unlike kids in care sadly. Meanwhile the purebred dog world where breeders DO care and Do do the right things by the health of the dogs, and by the public at large, continue to be condemned from the rooftops while these mongrels who breed mongrels can happily continue this evil practice. End of sermon. Souff

Catherine, I am sorry but you just don't seem to "get it". You are talking about this killing/drowning as "fact" when you were not there to know for certain that this happened. You have strong opinions about someone you have never met, and yet you only have hearsay on which to base your opinions. There is a possibility that what you were told happened never happened at all. These are allegations made by somebody else and passed on to you and others. With or without malice. And the person making the allegations wont go to the police. True allegations? Or false allegations? Do you see why it is all a little suss? If pups were drowned in public at a sale yard then the NSW Police or the RSPCA should be interested in the matter! They are the people to contact. No calls for information from the web, witchhunt style, NO, if there are facts to be told, tell them to the NSW Police or the RSPCA and let them do the investigating. Believe it or not, that is what they are PAID to do. Oh yes, by the way ...... many of us also "know" what country folk are like, in fact, many of us are indeed country folk. Many of us and our rellies drive utes. Many of us and our rellies have kelpies. Many of us and our rellies go to saleyards. And some of us and our rellies even live in the Tamworth area. But we don't drown dogs at saleyards. If the person with the rescued pup does not have the guts to provide registration numbers to the police, etc, then there is not a lot anyone can do, but that does not give you the right to point the finger at people from Tamworth generally. Souff

she didn't hand over any money for it. What would you recommend her to do? Tell him to surrender them to the pound? They'd be dead pretty quickly. I think she was lovely to give a pup a home, but as a society we don't seem to be making much progress in getting people to de-sex crossbred dogs. Perhaps we can all learn. Souff

.... and another backyard breeder of crossbred mutts is happy to be relieved of an unwanted pup. sigh.

Ah yes, the Cavalier King Charles spaniels. Tick the "not overly active" box ..... Tick very cuddly and yes, the aggressive chip was removed from its brain a long long time ago. Absolute sweeties. Start out as small ..... but as a result of not being "overly active" many end up with the weight and flexibility of a wombat. They also lose their coat in very long strands which can clog floor drains solid and make the plumber a regular visitor to your house. Cavvies love people and other dogs and playtime. Happy puddles are sometimes given when greeting visitors with joy, and of course that beautiful full plumed tail is swept through such puddles. But dont worry, cavvie owners quickly become afflicted with a sweet syndrome where negatives are simply not noticed. Souff adores Cavvies - other people's Cavvies that stay forever at their place, not mine Souff

Reading all these knowledgeable posts makes me think that anyone who wants to work in the area of rescuing and rehoming working dogs needs to first spend a few years living and working where working dogs come from. I do not condone what allegedly happened to these pups at a saleyard, if in fact it happened, but I fully understand the need to cull. I have seen too many re-homing situations that were so not suited for an intelligent but very bored working dog that was doomed to be PTS at some stage. Rehoming working dogs is often just putting off the inevitable. Souff

Well you do sound rude. And I never suggested that anyone had lied. What I was pointing out is that at EVERY sale yard around the country you will find plenty of people with UTES and KELPIES. And there is no shortage of them in the TAMWORTH area. I am sure many of them are good people who are not involved in animal cruelty yet, you could find some nutcase who wants revenge over another matter, could use your scenario to cause a lot of unnecessary strife for innocent parties. The person who saw what happened is the person who can take the matter further. Inviting people on the internet to make allegations is not the way to go. Souff

Catherine B, Have you approached the NSW police? If a crime has been committed it is the police who have the job of finding the person. There could have been a number of Tamworth people with kelpies and utes at a saleyard. I do not agree with what this person did, but I do not agree with witchhunts being hatched on the internet either. There are some very strange and malevolent people using the internet these days. Souff

Leaving pets ( often desexed) on short chains, or in bare yards, with no food/training/warmth.... THAT is cruel. Mixing up breeds ,producing pups with mismatched bodyparts /coats... that can be cruel. dogs housed in cages at puppy factories- THAT is cruel. leaving a cute little fluffy dog until its coat is so matted that the dog cannot see properly, or walk comfortably ...THAT is cruelty. Mass desexing will do NOTHING to stop humans treating pets badly ..and THAT is cruelty. I totally agree. That is the greater cruelty. Souff