Rappie

I did not mean to suggest that you were - it's been a long boring day in a deserted vet hospital. I'm just engaging in what is a pleasingly intelligent conversation I have no real problem with people getting killed vaccines - I don't know why people don't use them. Perhaps they don't know you can get them, perhaps they don't want the responsibility etc etc. Unfortunately, litigation is something that we (vets) have to consider - though it should have no real impact on those practicing "thinking" medicine. Of all the clients I've had contact with as a vet nurse and vet student, there's only ever been a few clients that ever threatened anything and their reasons were nearly always unfounded. Re: one size fits all vaccination - the dose of antigen contained in a vaccine is an amount deemed sufficient to be recognised and evoke an immune response in an animal, it doesn't depend on size (though species is a factor). I can't speak for other people's pricing structure, lol, I read a lot of things on this forum (and others) that make me think "That's a bit whacked". If it were me making it up I'd try to at least make it logical and worthwhile

My opinion sways on this topic fairly frequently Currently only inactivated vaccines may be purchased by non-veterinarians, such as killed parvo, F3's and equine tetanus / strangles. Only a veterinarian may sign a vaccination certificate as proof of vaccination. Breeders may vaccinate and sign whatever they like, but it will not be a legal document. On the one hand, any one can learn how to give a subcutaneous injection - that's all a vaccine is....right? You're only paying the vet to give a tiny jab and they make a whole lot of money out of you and you can do it yourself. Breeding is expensive business, I agree, and breeder don't stand to gain a lot financially when all is said and done. What happens if you obtain a live vaccine, administer it yourself and get a vaccination reaction? Will you wear it? Will your vet wear it? If the manufacturer finds out that the vet didn't give it - they wont wear it. IMHO - the vaccination is the least important part of the vaccination visit. I stand my ground on this point - *I* (not any one else - just me) will not vaccinate an animal without first satisfying myself that it is healthy enough to do so. That means that I do a thorough physical examination and take a full history and discuss whatever else the client's heart desires, before I will vaccinate their pet. How can you ensure that owners will do this, when a lot of vets don't? Does that make it less of a problem if owners do it? As I see it, you'd pay a vet say $45 for a consultation in the first place - you're paying for their professional opinion. Let the cost price of the vaccination be $7.50, let the cost of a vaccination visit be $60 - makes profit on vaccination visit be $7.50. Consider also that if you presented a pet that required an antibiotic injection, there would be injection fee included which is usually between $10 and $15 not including the cost of the drug itself........ Unless it became legal for a non-veterinarian to buy live vaccines, I wouldn't allow a client to buy them from me. If they were a super special client, I might give a decent discount, but I would still administer them myself - just in case. So there's plenty of questions, and I don't have any real answers.

Foodwise, the Hills z/d or z/d ultra should be fine - they are low allergen foods with hydrolysed proteins so the body doesn't recognise them as foreign (whereas i/d is simply easily digestible). I think Waltham / Royal Canin have a duck diet as well - and Eukanuba makes a fish and potato based diet (strangely enough named FP). You could speak to the specialist about them (if they haven't been covered already).

The reaction you describe is nothing like any thing I have ever heard of or observed with dogs being dosed with Drontal - but anything is possible. Certainly report it to Bayer and let them know of a potential problem. I imagine that the reason for Drontal being given at concurrently is that puppies should be wormed fortnight until 3 months, monthly until 6 months of age then commence the adult dosing program. That sure is an expensive way to be using Advocate It's much cheaper to use Advocate / Revolution for fleas and heartworm until they are 3 months old and just fill in the gaps with an all wormer tablet.

The choice of monthly vs yearly is really one that is up to you - I tend to recommend either Sentinel or Advocate to clients, but am more than happy to discuss the Proheart injection. I think its one of those things that is best for people that are either unable or unwilling to administer a monthly treatment. It's not really a vaccination - the flu / strangles / parvo etc vaccinations are a dose of antigen that elicits an antibody response in the body and their duration of effect isn't known specifically (other than "spot" titre testing) so they are administered at fairly arbitrary intervals. The heartworm injection is made up of microspheres of the drug that breakdown and distribute through the body over time (approx 12 months). The 6 month product available in the US, although the same active ingredient, was a different formulation to the product used here and the same reactions haven't been seen.

I wouldn't give a sedative for unsupervised travel. Along with problems like thermoregulation (more to do with vasodilation) the dogs aren't able to right themselves, balance properly and respond to their surroundings which puts them at greater risk of injury. I would suggest that the drooling is probably related to nausea. Even though ACP is anti-emetic, drugs like Stemetil and Maxolon are more effective at controlling nausea without providing sedation. Definately one to speak to your vet about.

My little guy gets the occasional small pile of chicken necks (on bright shiny days that he can go outside - we live in an apartment so no bones inside!), has a nylabone (somewhere......) and has an Enzadent rawhide chew just about every day - he lurrrrrves them He does like Greenies, but even with a generous staff discount I can't keep him well supplied, lol. A box of chews lasts him about a fortnight and is only $11. I tried the Schmacko's and Nature's gift ones and he turned his nose up at them which is VERY unusual.....so he gets the ones he likes

Cauterisation is probably easier than surgical removal, but much more difficult to have any kind of fine control. Cautery is pretty non selective - anything in the way of the tip is fried.

It's only an idea though - certainly not a definitive reason....... If you've found something that works, stick to it.

I recently went to a seminar for vets (I smiled sweetly at the Merial rep and he said I could go) on this very problem. The speaker was THE world expert on fleas and gave an excellent unbiased presentation of the current state of flea control. He gave us a lot of valuable information - so I'll just recount the major points..... - Only the very rare flea is "immune" to any of the registered products available, in cases where the flea problem remains there is nearly always some part of the flea control program that isn't as good as it should be. - All the products used, if used according to directions (ie. religiously every 28 days) will kill adult fleas within 24 hours of hopping on to the animal. If you leave it longer than 28 days, it will take longer to kill the fleas - longer than 24 hours means that adult fleas get the chance to lay eggs. Eggs means more fleas. - You need to be patient. If there's a large flea burden you have to wait. The fleas you see now are the result of whatever was happening up to 6-8 months ago - it doesn't reflect "now". The speaker also noted that the problem can get worse before it gets better - but it will often get better dramatically after a bad week (he mentioned that that point is often just after people switch to another product - when the first one has done all the dirty work ). - You need to find where the fleas are and treat the environment. If the fleas are in the house - the treated pets need to be in the house. If you kick the "walking flea vaccum" out of the house the fleas will attack the next available host - you! You need your pets to go where the fleas are - think of them like a permanent salt & pepper (flea egg) shaker, wherever they go they drop eggs and pick up adults. We want them to drop sterile eggs that wont hatch, then pick up the living adults so they can die an early death. The flea problem will disappear when there are no more eggs and no more adults. - Do all the cleaning things like wash bedding, vacuum regularly, let off flea bombs and get a pest person in to spray under the house if you need to. - Fleas wont jump from pet to pet. That means that if two of your dogs have fleas, they are both going to places where there are fleas. Also consider if there are any other animals getting into your yards - are there stray cats dropping flea eggs in your garden? This also means that you need to treat ALL your animals, regardless of whether you think they "have fleas". - Just because you can't see fleas, doesn't mean there aren't fleas. Cats particularly are very efficient groomers and can get rid of the fleas before you even notice. That said, it will only take one bite to set off an allergic reaction in a sensitive dog or cat. - If your flea control needs a boost - you can use Capstar tablets to dramatically drop the flea burden on your pet. Can use it once a week if you need to. For dogs, you can use Permoxin spray weekly also but NOT IF IT WILL BE ANYWHERE NEAR A CAT!!!! - Be honest with yourself. There are no flea repellants - just flea killers. THe products aren't infallible - they're distributed through the oils on the coat so anything that disturbs that will affect the efficacy of the product. How much that happens you can't know - but once weekly bathing shouldn't affect it too much. Daily swimming is anyones guess. They're not fool proof - if you think you've got a serious problem, call the manufacturer - they have a team of "flea investigators" that can come out and try to find the problem. Hope that helps......

Triz-EDTA ear cleaner by DermaPet works well in conjunction with Baytril for particularly "manky" ears involving Psuedomonas. The idea is to use it to clean the ear before dosing with antibiotics as the TrizEDTA starts to breakdown the bacterial cell wall.

Ivermectin has a wide saftey margin but some individual dogs - particularly those of Collie breeds seem to be more susceptible to the CNS effects of the drug. In Collies, the sensitivity is thought to be related to a mutation of a multidrug resistance gene. Similar neurotoxicity has been described in Australian Shephards, Old English Sheepdogs and Shetland Sheepdogs. Most of these animals can tolerate the dosage used in products like Heartgard - the mutation occurs in individuals, but on the whole caution should be used in these breeds - hence the need to start the dose low. It's not so much a problem with the time taken to metabolise the drug, as the concentration of the drug that is allowed access to the central nervous system. In the "normal" dog very little of the drug will enter the CSF - but the Collie breeds appear to have a more permeable barrier between the brain and the blood supply and so signs of neurotoxicity are seen - salivating, tremors, ataxia and so on.

In addition to Mags comment - the dosage of ivermectin actually starts out low and works up to a therapeutic dose in order to identify any dogs that may be susceptible to its toxic effects at low doses. Also, a negative scrape is the complete abscence of mites, it doesn't include dead mites. I wouldn't touch Amitraz with a 10 foot pole unless it was the only thing left that was likely to make any kind of difference. It might be the only registered treatment, but its a foul one.

Lol RnB, don't be sorry. I'm just doing the course for something to do - reckon you're right on the world domination things - just need to read some of the course notes on how to politely suggest that a client's dog might die if it doesn't eat Hill's for its entire like (*major exaggeration* but I found it amusing at the time). I believe firmly in everything in moderation and I think that should include advertising!

I'm in the process of completing the Hill's Nutritional Adviser Program - mostly for interests sake and they give us a fairly substantial discount. I think the use of the term "qualified" is probably a bit rich, perhaps certified would be a better choice, or just plain old "I'm a Hills NA". IMHO - some of the medical info is a bit off and the self promotion in the course is annoying. Still, its a few more pieces of paper for me, and heck - that free pen is nice! We've been given a lot of free food during our degree - hasn't swayed me either way, take the reps info with a healthy dose of scepticism. Eukanuba is still my favourite

AFAIK Science Diet is Hill's Science Diet. My preferred "super premium" food is Eukanuba / Iams - however some of the Hill's prescription diets are useful (but not are "exclusive").

It is treatable, but its a long haul. I suspect from what you've said that the treatment you got from the 3rd vet just didn't go long enough and you still have an underlying demodex infection and possibly also an allergy of some kind. Ivermectin treatments (or doramectin / Dectomax) really need to go for at least one month, preferably two, after a negative scrape. A negative scrape means no sign of a mite, not just seeing dead mites. How long was each course of antibiotics? Did the other vets ever treat the "allergies" with anything? It's a big topic and theres lots of information. Feel free to PM me or catch me on MSN if you wish - I have am going through a hectic couple of days at the moment but I already have a bit of catching up to do early next week, a little bit more wont hurt me

Fair enough Holly - I agree with you re: the Macrolone and food trials and flea control are the best starting point. The thing with food allergy is that it can be to anything, and usually its an allergy to things that the dog is exposed to frequently (thats why chicken, beef and lamb are the most common). So regardless of whether it is raw or whatever he may well be allergic to whatever protein source you are feeding in BARF. Could you try something hasn't eaten before like fish or kangaroo? A thorough food trial is the way to go before you start looking into skin testing anyway - that means a strict one (that always makes owners go pale!). Anyways, was just curious - that and I've just finished a month of dermatology and I felt like blurting something out Edit: Just re-read your post and you're not feeding BARF but the protein source thing still stands. Is it possible for you do try Hills Z/d ultra or Eukanuba F/P. I know theyre expensive but they would give you a pretty clear indication of whether there was an underlying food allergy.

Holly, have you considered intradermal skin testing for the allergies? It's a fairly expensive procedure but if there are positive reactions to any of the 80 grass and other household allergens, desensitisation injections can help immensely (in about 70-80% of cases). It can often be easier than trying to eliminate the cause since atopy is caused by airborne allergens. Forgive me if you've already thought about it / done it.

Pene - I think in your case it might be easier if discussed giving oral ivermectin to your dogs. Fortnightly doses isn't going to do anything rapidly, but a daily dose of ivermectin will help. He would only need to work out the correct increasing dosage scheme and supply you with a dosing syringe and some ivermecting each fortnight....

I saw a dog with quite severe Demodex today - and have seen several cured cases for rechecks in the last couple of weeks. It certainly can be resolved but it take times so try not to feel dishearted if things seem to be taking a while. I think one of the biggest reasons that some cases don't resolve is not treating aggressively enough or for long enough (1-2 months past a negative scrape), or not controlling the secondary infections. I know that Demadex (the amitraz wash) is the only registered treatment but IMHO I would reserve it for cases that don't respond to anything else, just because it's the least pleasant and most toxic of all the treatment option. For those that are using it, you may as well not use it if you aren't clipping the coat off very short. Good luck with it all Larns - a large dose of TLC and I reckon you'll be well on your way

I've been working with a specialist dermatologist for the last couple of weeks..... The easiest thing for the vet to do would be to take a swab, stain it and have a look at it under the microscope. That will tell them at least which "class" of infection they are dealing with bacterial (rods or cocci) or yeast or a mixed infection and let them modify the treatment regime. A culture will probably only tell them what they could already find out - and antibiotic sensitivity in a lab doesn't neccessarily reflect the sensitivity of organisms in the ear. Ear cleaning is important whilever there is still goop in the ears, but it is important to let the ear dry for at least 15 mins before you put the medication in it. It's also useful to choose the right "base" for the medication - there isn't a lot of use using an oil based product in an ear producing watery discharge as the medication will just float on top. At this point, perhaps after you have the ear under control it would be worth considering underlying causes - ear canal conformation, swimming, underlying food allergy (of which an allergy to beef, lamb or chicken is most likely), atopy etc etc.

Same Lia! The first question is usually "What is he?" (Have decided maybe a Min Pin X) The second question is nearly always "He's a bit skinny isn't he?" Um, no?

If they are both friendly vets, there shouldn't be any reason why they couldn't have a professional discussion about your dogs case. Probably best just to politely discuss your situation with your current vet, maybe see if they would be willing to write a letter of introduction or something for you. Then you could see the potential new vet and see if they would be willing to "share" you - if they say no, then you can always just continue seeing your old vet for scheduled visits and just see someone else for more urgent matters?

I don't think it is any more expensive than the injectable - I guess the price you see may also depend on how your vet charges for the vaccines (and I don't mean whether or not it is like a wounded bull, lol). There's some variation in whether vets charge the examination / consult and the vaccination separately or combined etc and I guess a bit depends on the area. If the vaccine is charged separately between $20 and $35 could be expected (also depends on whether they charge it as C3 + B3 or just a C5). If the charge is combined then I guess anywhere between $60 and $80 would be reasonable for the area I am in.