~*Shell*~

Zero goes round the back but at the same time I'm teaching him the other way as well because i want him to know how to do both. He has two different commands for them so knows which one i want him to do. He's not very maneuverable so he goes round the back in a left about turn but if we're just doing training exercises, i'll use the command "back" and he knows to follow my left leg. I didn't like his left turns (they looked sloppy) so i decided to work on them and so now he is able to do the other way (with a lot of back end awareness work) too, though it's still not as good as i would like it to be!

I third what SilverHaze and Huski have said. I got my sibe later on in his life (he was 2.5) and he had never had boundaries before. It has taken me more than 2 years to correct the problems he's had and a lot of that have come from the fact that he has never had a strong leader. Something to note would be that sibes will try the same things on with every person they meet and they will remember who lets them get away with what. For example - i have never tolerated Zero begging for food while we're eating. He knows this but if I am sitting at the table on one side and someone who has not told Zero he's not allowed to do it is sitting on the other, he will beg them and will try to do it so that I don't see him doing it. Once I have told him to back off he will stay away but if I was to get up and leave the table, he will go back to begging that person. The more people who are there who do not know his rules, the more he will try on. I've found the ebst way to deal with Zero is to have a family meeting to decide the rules and have everyone stick to them - he will not try anything on with people in my family (except my mother who can't walk him because he pulls her) but with anyone else, he will try to see what he can get away with.

I just put my hand closer and closer to the ground until Zero understood that no matter where it was, he had to get it - the first time he picked it up from the ground I went nuts and started shoving the treats in his gob. That seemed to get the point across and he went from that to being able to do a full retrieve in about 2 days. Once they've got that down, the rest comes naturally.

For those who haven't seen how talented Altheau is: The original photo The sketch I keep coming in here to look at it!!

Would you be able to do me a massive favour and send me a scan of the Zero pic please altheau? I'll pm you my email address if you like! I keep coming on here to look at it so I'd love to have a copy!!

If it were me, and Zero had done the same thing - I would've pulled him out of the situation right away, calmed him down, checked him out for any problems and then tried to reintroduce him to the other dog. My way would be to walk him towards the other and at the slightest sign of excitement or fear, i would turn on my heel, tell him to come with me and then walk away. I would do this a few times to make sure he can be around the other dog - and then i would avoid the other dog (train at the other end of the line) for the next few weeks till i was sure that whatever issue that was between them was sorted out and I trusted them to be around eachother again. Zero doesn't like one of the dogs at training - they tolerate each other when we're doing things like figure 8s and will happily walk past eachother if they're heeling or whatever but if i was to let Zero off a leash and his owner was to let the german shepherd off his leash, i think after a few minutes, they would end up in an altercation (even if it was just a whole lot of noise) because they're both quite dominant males. Alpha rolling a dog is a stupid move - people see Cesar do it and think that's all he does and they're miraculously fixed. It's complete crap!

For me joining a club wasn't so much about teaching Zero the things he needed to learn to trial, it was more about teaching me. I feel like if we were to go into the ring now, I would be prepared for it and know what to expect. Zero's no where near that stage yet but now I only take him to classes because we enjoy them - his training at home is completely different to at the club.

Wow Leena - I want to live where you do!

Omg - that's so die for!!!! It looks just like him and I love love love it!!!

Lol - I just finished putting up the last of my july challenge photos! This one is going to be interesting... i'm going to have to start shooting in my lunch break at work or everything will be artificially backlit!

Okay peeps, here's my final contribution for this month! Take a guess what my inspiration was Here's the one I wanted a ruffled tulip for - the dyed tissue didn't work as well as I'd hoped! Love the flowers CM!!

I'm excited!! I've been trying to find a ruffled tulip for the last photo I want to take for this challenge and I can't find one anywhere because they're out of season! Grrrrrrr... Oh well, looks like I'll be improvising! Photos to come tonight!

Happy birthday!!!

I managed to get a couple of shots last night but they're part of a series of shots I'm doing to round out this month... Hopefully I'll get the others done tomorrow night so I can get back in the game! I'm McLovin' your shots Nik!

I use both positive and negative interruptors - for example, Zero is nose to the ground in the backyard (or at training) and I want his attention but "oi" didn't work, I would use the command "watch me" for this kind of situation. Generally if he's just having a sniff and isn't scenting a "watch me" gets his attention pretty well. "Watch me" doesn't work when he's busy doing his own thing though. Say for example, there's been a dog show at the training grounds the day before and has obviously been a bitch in heat so he's scenting like crazy, instead of just casually sniffing around - for a sibe, anything they want to do is more interesting than anything you have for the most part (food is an exception most of the time in Zero's case and even then, there are times when it doesn't tempt him, even when i waft bbq chicken under his nose) so not listening to me is self-rewarding to him - ignoring me means he gets to keep his head to the ground. If he's completely ignoring me then I will use "uh-uh" which usually brings his focus back to me because it's short, sharp and to the point. I've tried using other noises but this one is the best for us - his name or a different command don't work at this stage. The other interruptor I use is "arrrrrrrrr" (it's low and sounds like a growl) and this is the interruptor I use when Zero is doing something he knows I won't like. For example, for those of you who don't know, Zero used to be dog aggressive. If he's playing with another dog and goes from being playful to dominant (it's very obvious to me when he is because his stance and posture change), I will use this sound to tell him that it's not okay for him to act like that. He hears the sound, stops and assesses and then usually goes back to playing but without the dominance. I will also use the noise if another dog is annoying him and his reaction to it is too much. I don't stop him from growling because I think another dog needs to hear that they're annoying him but there is a difference between a "stop doing that" growl (i will use an "oi" in this situation because it generally gets the attention of both dogs so I can redirect their attention) and a "I'm going to bite you if you don't stop doing that" growl. Luckily i know my dog enough so that i don't hear the "I'm going to bite you if you don't stop doing that" growl anymore - I remove the problem before it gets to that. Dogs tell each other when they're doing the wrong thing all the time and I believe their brain was hard wired to hear it and respond accordingly, in the same way that a dog like Daisy is hardwired to sniff, Zero and Micha are hardwired to run and Kivi is hardwired to herd. I've never met a dog who didn't know what "arrrrrr", said with the right tone and inflection, meant. ETA: You were posting at the same time as me Corvus I would consider "watch me" to be a positive interruptor - it's been drummed into Zero for the last 2.5 years that "watch me" means his favourite treats are coming his way. Unfortunately, sometimes I just don't have the trump card for whatever he wants to do and I could wave anything in the world in his face to get him to watch me and he still wouldn't look at me. At that point, the most rewarding thing to him is whatever he's doing whether it be scenting, pawing at the ground, following the bee that's caught under the grass etc.

I find it easier to close my right eye than my left so i close my right eye and use my left unless it's in an awkward position and have to use my right. I don't know why - it just seems easier with the left.

I'd buy that book! Great photos as usual!

When we spoke to the first 2 trainers I took Zero too - they all recommended a headcollar for Zero as he was a puller when he was on a walk. We tried as many different brands as I could get my hands on and Zero managed to get himself out of all of them. He's so good at it that he can do it without skipping a beat in his walking! I didn't see much of a difference between brands but then again, after Zero got out of them once, I didn't try that brand again!

I agree it's very difficult to capture fear in a photo - I have quite a few of Zero in moments like the dog in Vickie's photo where the look on his face would suggest terror but it's taken while he's been playing with his duckie toy and spun around so fast that the photo has captured the whites of his eyes or when he's been out on the boat (which he loves) and the wind has pulled his face into a strange expression. Neither moment is while he's fearful but he certainly looks it in the photo. I wouldn't call the look Penny is giving in that photo fear necessarily, but more wariness that Kivi is close to her - it could be the first sign of fear Penny gave though - individual dogs have different signs. He does have the potential to bump into her but having the ears down can be a sign of curiosity, or one of submission among other things. Jude has that look quite a lot - she is by no means fearful of other dogs (quite the opposite infact) but when she's got another unknown dog near her who is bouncing around her, her first reaction is to be submissive. When she's around Zero, who is a naturally dominant dog, she will come bounding up to him and stop just short of him with her ears and tail down - she's not fearful of him (in fact, she wags her tail and tries to get to him whenever she sees him) and he's not about to attack her but she definitely shows him that he's in charge.

Lol - I was looking at that and thinking "what's that?" for a few seconds Nik! I still need to find someone to model for me - I have the best idea but it'll take a few days to work it all out because i can't do it down on the floor (because I can't get down onto the floor!) like i want to!

You were the first person who didn't look at me like I was crazy for wanting to "fix" my broken dog - when you've had 18 months of people telling you to euthanise your aggressive/evil/bad dog, having someone tell you that you can make it better is a massive thing. Most people just looked at his breed and told me you can't train a sibe. Obviously Zero is proof that you can but even now (and even after showing them his tricks - at last count he knew more than 30 commands so it's not a small list) I have people telling me that sibes are too difficult to work with! I came out to see you on the 12th July and I think the workshop was around the 14th September so it would've been about 9 weeks between visits - he wasn't 100% then and still had problems interacting with dogs who were trying to to play with him (growling a little when they bounced around him but not lunging or biting) but that was something he had to get used to because he hadn't been exposed to other dogs like that since he left his breeders and I think he was unsure about what they were doing rather than just wanting to attack them for being there. I didn't let it get to the point where he felt like he had to handle the situation so now he doesn't have a problem unless they get right up in his face and want to jump all over him - I don't let them do that because I know he doesn't like it and I know which dogs he will tolerate it from and which will be a little bit much for him. It's interesting to hear your perspective on Cesar - I had often wondered about it. I don't think i've ever met anyone who fully agrees with his tactics but then I've seen a lot of people needlessly bashing his methods because they don't understand them (or have seen snippets of a situation out of context and don't understand it fully). I like his ideas about it all being about timing and getting in to correct the dog while it's displaying the unwanted behaviour but before it gets past a certain level or it just doesn't feel the correction at all and I like his ideas about exercise, discipline and affection because it's so simple but so many people don't follow it and having a dog who isn't hyperactive is just so much easier to work with (I've learnt recently while training a friend's hyperactive dog ) than a dog that's bouncing all over the place. I don't think you have to come down on all red-zone dogs in order to cure them, I just think there are a lot of dogs out there that don't respond to purely positive methods and I truely believe that Zero is one of those dogs. He might not have been if he had had a different upbringing but quite frankly, being abused and neglected from the time you were 6 months old till you were picked up by the ranger at two and a half has to have an effect and obviously in his case it did. I didn't get to have the cute puppy, I got the snarling beast that puppy turned into, the one that didn't want to take food or toys from me when there were other dogs there (in his eyes) just waiting to be mauled, even after a year of working on the foundations of the exercise and having them perfected at home. Do you believe I came down on Zero to "cure" him? I did use physical corrections on him (I think that's what you mean when you say 'come down on him', that I used physical corrections?) - I will openly admit that but at the same time, my approach after going out to see Steve was a lot more subtle than it had been in the past. You will notice in the clip that Dr Yin forces the fear aggressive dog into a sit using a halti after it's been jumping around trying to get at the other dog - there was none of that with the prong collar. What I did to Zero with the prong collar was a lot less forceful than that - we would see another dog (or he would start showing me the signs that he had seen another dog, even if i hadn't seen it yet), I would give him a cue word and then turn on my heel and walk in the other direction. If he didn't follow me at that moment, he got a small physical correction and all he saw was me being calm about the whole situation and totally in charge. That correction was part of removing him from the situation and taking him away from his fear - it wasn't increasing it so the distance at which he reacted got smaller and smaller till it was non-existant. I don't think Cesar "comes down" on dogs that much either. When you've had the bucking broncho dog who is lunging at everything in sight and you've got so stressed out that you've pulled him around by the neck or gotten so frustrated that you've yanked on that leash (and let's face it, the majority of people have done it at one time or another even if their dog isn't aggressive or fearful), what Cesar does isn't as forceful or as "violent". I personally would never use some of his methods - I would never alpha roll a dog for example - but after watching the owner's reactions to their dog's behaviour (and their blatant over-correcting at the wrong times), a lot of what he does is actually less-forceful than the tactics used by the owners themselves before they see him. In the end, Zero and Penny are two very different dogs with two very different upbringings and what worked for Zero obviously didn't work for Penny and vice versa - I'm sure when I get another dog, I'll have to adapt my training methods again to make up for the difference in their temprements/breed as well. I know you think physical corrections made Penny occasionally fearful/distrustful of you - I never saw Penny display that behaviour when i saw her so I can't comment on it. For Zero and I, the physical corrections have actually improved our relationship in that it gave him the opportunity to see me deal with a situation by snapping him out of that aggressive state of mind for even a few seconds and letting him think/learn. The more times he snapped out of it to see me calm and in control, the less he went into the aggressive state and the more focused on me he became. I never got close to that level of focus out of him with food/toys!

I can see this thread turning into a slinging match already. While i don't personally agree with all of Cesar's methods, I think a lot of people who have "seen" his techniques have not infact seen them at all but have visited websites like the one mentioned and seen the clips out of context. Quite frankly, his methods are a lot less forceful than some I've seen out of other trainers, even ones who tell me their methods are purely positive. While Dr Yin makes some valid points about positive reinforcement and it's benefits, I can't see one instance in any of the clips where she deals with a dog who displays half of the aggression that many of the dogs on Cesar's show display. For example, look at the clip of Emily the Pitbull - then compare that to the clip included in "Counterconditioning a Dog That’s Fear Aggressive to Other Dogs" - same level of aggression? I think not. I also don't see this "fear" of Cesar that many people seem to - having had a fearful dog, nothing is more heartbreaking than a dog who is truely fearful of their handler. The 3rd trainer I took Zero to made Zero fearful of him (even after we had got him over his fearful tendencies) - he was a quivering mess who slinked along the ground with a very wary look in his eyes, his tail between his legs, compulsively peeing and actively trying to get away from trainer, desperate to do so - fear is not something that should ever be used to train a dog and after having seen a truely fearful dog, I don't see anything similar in the way the dogs react to Cesar. The technique that Dr Yin uses is the technique I first started using when Zero's dog aggression became apparent - we did the foundation work with a trainer (2 trainers actually, the second trainer didn't believe ther first had done it correctly because "it always works" and so we started over with her), we got Zero to focus on me and according to the trainer, all should have been right with the world. The very second another dog was added into the equation *POOF*, all of that foundation work went out the window. Zero wouldn't focus on me for anything (in fact one day we were working with him and a big piece of steak after Zero hadn't eaten in more than 24 hours) the second the dog was in view he would go nuts and just the smell of another dog got Zero edgy and prancing around to the point where he wouldn't listen, focus or take food from me. What did those purely positive trainers suggest to me then? Without a word of a lie: "That dog isn't hardwired right, it's time you seriously considered putting him to sleep - you'll never get anywhere with him and you will certainly never fix him" was the general gist of the conversations I had with both trainers. What did I learn out of the experience? A) Zero can get a halti (and we tried 3 different kinds) off his head without even missing a beat in his walk, B) Zero would quite happily choke himself to death to get at another dog if he was on a flat collar, check chain or martingale and would probably come back for more if he was given the opportunity C) no amount of food/toys/praise would tempt him if another dog was around - Zero's sight is a lot better than mine and he could see a dog long before I could so he would work himself up to the point where he wouldn't look at food being waved in his face if he could see another dog and D) correcting him like Dr Yin does would make him growl at me - especially if I stood between him and the other dog like she does in the clip. I ended up with a stressed out dog who was always on the lookout for other dogs and whose aggression was escalating because he was only getting negative experiences when he was around other dogs which were compounded by the fact that I was having negative experiences too. Placing him in a situation where he was around other dogs without an escape (like what happens in Dr Yin's clip) just made him worse. Enter DOL and the many many DOLers who recommended Steve to me (and I might add, not once did he have to "self promote" - I was contacted via PM by numerous people when I asked about behaviourists who recommended him to be because of what he had done for them and their dog in addition to the people who publically recommended him) - I booked the first available appointment and then waited the 3 months for that appointment to rock around. I think this picture speaks for itself: I have to add that I used a prong collar on Zero - in a lot of people's opinion this makes me a bad owner because I physically corrected him and "forced" him to comply with my will. Has it impacted on our relationship? Hell yes it has - my dog looks to me, he trusts me and he enjoys being around me and walking with me because he no longer has to be on the lookout for other dogs or be fearful of strangers because he trusts that I won't put him in a situation where anything bad will happen to him because I will handle any situation that we come across, good or bad. It's no longer up to him to take charge - I can handle it and I do handle it. At an aggression workshop Zero was lunged at by another dog who was close to us - I reacted more than Zero did. He just looked up at me to see what my reaction would be and didn't move from the spot, even though I hadn't given him a command. He was 100% relaxed - how many people can tell you they have a dog who would do that when threatened? Does that sound like a dog who is fearful of it's owner? Here are some photos of Zero and I working together - does he look fearful of me? Note: These photos were taken by Terranik at 2 events where there were multiple dogs Zero hadn't met before. I don't know about anyone else but he looks like a relaxed, happy, non-fearful dog to me. In fact, in the first photo he looks excited to be working with me and that's his normal face when we're together. If you can see fear in that expression, you need your eyes checked. I think the point I'm trying to make is that not all training methods work for all dogs and Dr Yin's method didn't work for us. I truely believe that purely positive methods don't work for Zero and I know a lot of dogs just like him where those methods have failed. I also believe that they do work for certain dogs but I would like to see Dr Yin work with a dog who has been involved in dog fighting and trained to be aggressive towards other dogs since they were a puppy to see how fast she can get results with them (we worked for 12 months with her technique and it just made Zero worse). I know for a fact that Cesar has quite a few of these dogs in his pack and that without him, those dogs would have been euthanised. I would rather see him "force" a dog into submission and have that dog lead a long, happy life than have them PTS after years of fighting, having never had the experience of living peacefully with other dogs. Most of his cases are dogs who are beyond the help of the majority of trainers and even some behaviourists and let's face it, he does get results without physically hurting the dog, and IMO (though I'm well aware that this is the point a lot of people will disagree with me on) without mentally hurting them either.

Me too - the only ones I have are the ones you've taken! I'll take some of you if you take some of me!

My favourite is probably this photo, it was taken by Terranik at a spitz breed meet. Zero was perfectly well behaved (except for trying to steal food) on this day so we were both having a great time: I have a soft spot for this one too though (also taken by Terranik, on the same day):

I second this - Steve is at Kurrajong Heights which can be a bit of a trek but he's definitely worth it and did wonders for my sibe.