rivergem

Thanks so much for everyone's responses... they all help to build some perspective I will ring Riv's breeder on Monday morning and get him to a HD expert vet hopefully sometime this week for x-rays - that way I can rule HD either in or out.

He has free access to a fenced paddock off the side of the house all the time, it is probably about an acre or so, have only been taking him for 10-20 min walks on grass for lead walking... I was worried about over exercising him.. maybe I haven't been providing enough to build up the muscles sufficiently?? Every second weekend or so I take him to the beach for a run around and swimming. I would get him an x-ray but as far as I know it might not neccesarily show up much even if he does have HD... especially because he is still young. This is just my understanding so please correct me if I am wrong. I ordered and received today a commercial dog food brand name Orijen so it is no grains - I was going to feed that in the morning and raw at night and see how it goes...

Thanks for the replies guys.. another thing I forgot to mention is when he sits, he sits right back and to the side with his back left leg flopped out to the side in a real casual position.. I hadn't thought too much of it as my other lab sits back on her bum as well... it's so annoying not knowing what it is.. Thanks for the referrals too... will give a call on Monday to organise something... I have ordered Joint Guard over the net which I was going to start giving him as well as swimming him at least a couple times a week plus some structured short walks to build muscle in his hind... One thing with Ester C - I've heard lots of people rec it and all great stuff, although does it have calcium in it aswell?... my understanding is that it is or can be dangerous to supp with calcium? Thanks :rolleyes:

Hi, I am a little worried about my 9 month old labby, he went lame last week on one leg - took him to the vets where she had a look and feel, pretty much said it was either a hurt muscle in his thigh or early signs of HD. Gave me some anti flem to give him for a week and said it if wasn't better to call back after a week. After much research I have come across Dengenerative Myelopathy and although he is only 9 months old (its said that it affects dogs 5-14yrs) he is showing some signs that I don't want to just ignore... 1. Brought him home at 8 weeks old from registered breeder - parents with good hip scores 2. Has always had a part of his lower back/spine that if you scratch his bottom shakes really fast (he has always been kept lean) 3. His back legs have always been a little wonky, a bit of bunhopping and he seems a little weaker in his back legs (eg not as much muscle as the front) - saying this I havent really seen it affect him, still walks, runs etc without any noticeable pain 4. Went lame on his back left leg last week, lasted about 5 or so days but he has been back and walking on it the last couple of days 5. I feed all my crew a raw prey model diet and the vet suggested to get him onto commercial biscuits and maybe cook some rice/pasta for him to go with the meat (hmm... don't really trust this vet) If anyone can give me some advice, knowledge or their own experiences that would be great... If anyone can point me in the direction of a vet/chiro/expert in this type of field who know's their stuff that would be excellent :rolleyes: Anywhere from Sydney area through to Newcastle (I'm on the Central Coast). Jess

Pretty much from everything I've read that is more or less right... protein alone does not cause (from my sources above) growth problems, it is when this is combined with things like a too high caloric intake, whacked out proportions of calcium:phos, not adequate minerals and vitamins etc etc This said, they are talking about protein from meat sources, not grain - and for commercial dog foods it is important to look at the ash percentage as this mucks with this calcium and so on. So increasing protein alone (from the correct sources) will not attribute to accelerated growth and the subsequent issues, in particularly with large and giant breeds (as long as all other things are accounted for). This is just what I can gather from doing a bit of research on it. :D

Hi Shell Thought you might be interested in this info I just found... I have just ordered Orijen myself and hopefully will be able to start feeding it by the end of the week. But from what I know about nutrition the info below makes sense to me. Before he will start losing weight, he will need to feel satisfied then the body can stop the mode of "storing fat" to actually using it and feeling like it is getting enough. Very basic what I just wrote but tis the same for us humans. www.dogaware.com/dogfeeding.html Senior and overweight dogs are often fed foods that are lower in protein and higher in carbohydrates, which is a bad idea. Recent research indicates that older dogs need MORE protein than younger dogs, not less. Carbohydrates provide less nutrition than protein and can lead to weight gain. Feed senior and overweight dogs a diet that is high in protein, with low carbs and moderate amounts of fat (too little fat leaves your dog feeling hungry all the time, which can make it harder for them to lose weight).

What about muscle/soft tissue/etc growth that puts strain on undeveloped bones causing them to weaken and grind? Can you point me in the direction of some good sites for reference to your above question.... I tried to do some more and came up with this http://www.urbancarnivore.com/uc_online/pages.cfm?ID=38 The idea that diets high in fat and protein cause over nutrition, especially in large breed puppies, is invalid. There is new evidence to suggest that diets high in protein and fat do not cause orthopedic problems providing intake is restricted to prevent rapid weight gain. If a puppy consumes too many calories for his energy requirements and becomes overweight, then the risk for skeletal problems increases. Feeding low protein and fat diets that contain higher ratios of carbohydrates may in fact slow growth but it may also mean a puppy isn't receiving adequate nourishment to sustain the demands of growth. Keeping a puppy lean throughout this period of development is the key. Over feeding contributes to: - Accelerated growth rate and obesity - Damage to developing cartilage and growth plates - Promotes bone disorders - Premature closure of growth plates - Weaker bone structure http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=48372 In addition to excessive calcium intake, researchers have shown that over nutrition can also initiate these disturbances in skeletal maturation and growth. An excess protein intake, without an excess of other nutrients revealed NOT to influence skeletal maturation and growth in growing Great Danes. (www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu.au). I should perhaps also point out that not all high-protein diets are equal. Some foods generate high-protein by using meals, which are typically high in ash, and therefore high in mineral content of which – you guessed it – elevated levels calcium and phosphorus would be a concern to large breed puppies, and phosphorus in general for kidney health in dogs of all breeds and life-stages. The information below is taken from www.dogaware.com – a great site for general information. Large and giant breed puppies (or any breed prone to hip dysplasia) should be fed a restricted diet to slow growth. Overfeeding encourages them to grow too fast, resulting in most of the bone and joint problems common in large breeds, including dysplasia, osteochondrosis, etc. Limit the amount you feed to keep your pup lean and slow-growing. Never give supplemental calcium of any kind when feeding a commercial diet. Feeding an adult food to a puppy may cause excessive calcium intake, as the adult food might have more calcium for the same amount of calories than a puppy food would, while not providing the other nutrients required by puppies. You should always feed puppies foods that are approved either for puppies or for all life stages. If you feed a food that is approved for adult dogs only, there will be inadequate amounts of protein, and improper levels of calcium and other nutrients. Large Breed Puppy Formulas may not be the answer, as they often replace protein with carbohydrates. Protein and carbohydrates contain exactly the same number of calories per gram, so reducing protein in favor of carbohydrates provides less needed nutrition without reducing calories. High protein diets are preferred, as puppies need protein to thrive and studies have shown that high protein does not lead to developmental problems, but high fat diets may contribute too many calories, leading to rapid growth. High-Protein Diets Contrary to many myths and popular beliefs, there is no harm in feeding a high-protein diet to dogs of any age, including puppies (see <A href="http://www.dogaware.com/dogfeeding.html#Puppies">Large and giant breed puppies below) and seniors (see Senior and overweight dogs below and my article on Diet and the Older Dog for more information). Studies have proven that protein does not cause orthopedic problems in puppies, nor lead to kidney disease in older dogs. In fact, protein is extremely beneficial: it supports the immune system and the central nervous system, contributes to wound healing, helps build lean muscle, and is required for skin and coat health. Even most dogs with kidney disease benefit from a moderate-protein rather than low-protein diet (see my Kidney Disease web page for additional info). There are very, very few health conditions where a lower-protein diet is needed, and even then, it's extremely important to feed adequate protein, as protein malnutrition will cause the body to break down its own muscle tissue to get what it needs, leading to muscle wasting and other serious problems. Even mild protein deficiency can significantly impair immune function. Dogs who get too little protein are also more susceptible to stress, including stress from injury or infection. Dogs thrive on protein, the more the better. There is absolutely no reason to limit the amount of protein you feed your dog. Look for foods that are high in protein, rather than the typical high-carbohydrate diets that are more commonly available. Dogs have no nutritional need for carbohydrates; they are used in dog food mostly as an inexpensive source of calories (grains are also used to supply low-quality protein in some foods), and to help bind dry food together into kibble. Studies indicate that high-protein, low-carb foods with moderate amounts of fat also help dogs lose weight better than the traditional high-carb, low-fat (and often low-protein) weight loss diets. There are a number of newer, high-protein, low-carbohydrate diets now being offered, for both adult and senior dogs. Some of these are also OK for puppies, if approved for them or for all life stages, but be careful of any with very high calcium percentages (best to stick to 2% or less calcium on a dry matter basis for large-breed puppies under the age of six months).

I have some questions regarding feeding a mix of raw and dry (commercial) dog food. I have read through a lot of posts where quite a lot of people seem to be feeding a mix of dry biscuits and raw (chicken frames, wings, lamb flaps etc). Some feed the combo together at meal time, some separate and say feed the dry in the morning and the raw component at night. I have read also that dogs digest these two foods with different acids so it is wise to feed them 10-12 hours apart, but then, a lot seem to feed a mix of both and it works well for them?? If you plan to feed a mix of dry and raw how do you make sure that you don't tip the balance of it all and blow percentages, say for things like calcium/phos ratio... Any advise and experiences appreciated

For those who want to try Orijen or another dog food but might be worried about the high Protein percentage. Also google it - there are many articles which conclude that high protein is not a bad thing, you just have to be aware of where the protein comes from (protein from meat is fantastic - protein from ingredients such as wheat/corn/rice not so good), the bioavailability of it and the balance along with other nutrients/minerals etc. In the case of Orijen, the proteins come from excellent sources - and the small percentage of ash along with other ingredients/minerals etc makes it look great to me. NOTE: I haven't started feeding this food yet, this info is what I've come across in my research to make sure I am 100% happy with feeding it - which I am http://www.doglogic.com/debaunprotein.htm Can Protein Cause Accelerated Bone Growth ? A great deal of misinformation has been published about the adverse affects of protein on our animals. Large breed dogs, in particular, are believed to be adversely affected by consuming too much protein during their puppy and adolescent stages. This misconception is predicated on the hypothesis that protein accelerates bone development. Nothing could be further from the truth, if indeed, we are talking about good bio-available meat protein! The protein molecule is the fundamental building block of all cellular structure in the body, whether we are talking about bone, muscle, organ, skin tissue or hair. The carnivore,, in particular, requires a large amount of protein. The body takes this protein and appropriately converts it into one of five categories so that it may be used wherever the body requires it. Crude protein Verses usable protein. It should be pointed out that the crude protein values listed on the pet food label do not indicate the amount of usable protein in a food, but rather the overall protein usable or non-usable that is in the package. The actual usable protein called bio-available protein is often quite less, therefore; most animals using commercial food are more apt to be protein deficient than to have too much protein. Non-available protein, which comes from grains and other difficult to digest food elements, can be problematic causing a variety of health issues from protein deficiency to digestive problems to allergies, etc, therefore; the source and quality of the protein is of primary importance. In conclusion, no one can determine the actual usable protein from a pet food label. Calories versus proteins. Excess calories should not be confused with excess protein as many people do. They are two distinctly different things and have little to do with one another. The majority of researchers whose studies were related to bone growth malformations found that excess calories and rapid weight gain due to excessive feeding coupled with poor mineral intake is more likely to cause problems than protein itself. Young dogs raised on a natural diet such as raw meat actually tend to grow more slowly and have fewer musculoskeletal problems than dogs raised on commercial diets because the body knows how and where to put the protein it receives; it does not need human intervention. The body uses good protein in numerous ways. [/b

Hey guys, Anyone been feeding Orijen for at least over a few weeks and care to share the results? Anyone been feeding their pup on this? Just interested to know all the results people are getting

I am looking for a supplier of things like trachea/gullet/tongue from cow or lamb. I am having trouble finding an Australian supplier, especially if I am looking more towards fresh or frozen instead of dried (but either at this stage would be good)... Also interested to find supplier of roo or/and goat meat but not the stuff for pets as I'm looking for meat free of preservatives or additives. Anyone know of anyone?

I haven't used the training halter but I do have a Blackdog infinate8 which is great. I don't use it all the time, but when I do it definately gives you more control... I like the infinate8 because it attaches at the top of the neck and not around or from underneath the nose... in my opinion this is safer for the dog if they were to try and lunge for something.

thankyou thankyou thankyou i love it!

is this what i think it could be? harminee is helping with sigs?? umm hmm can i please have one? Brodie Gemma River

The tripe that you can buy from the butcher is white and bleached and nutritional value is zip compared to raw green tripe. Let me know if you track a supplier down, it is against the law for any place selling meat for human consumption to also have green tripe on the premises which makes it hard to track down

Thanks Warden I must be just thinking of the ones they've banned...

Generally I've found that all meat sold for pet consumption has preservatives (with the exception of a very few), 220 is a popular one they use. Any meat that is for human consumption is not allowed by law (my understandings, correct me if I'm wrong) to have preservatives. Blood on the bottom of the bag is normal - I buy lots of meat from the butcher and this always happens especially when I defrost it after freezing. The cheapest meat I have found at the butchers that I feed to my crew is lamb or beef trim or items like whole lamb necks or lamb breast etc. Jess

I feed my adults once a day and my 8 month old twice a day, sometimes they will get another snacky item or food treats for training as well. I feed a raw diet - a variety of lamb necks, lamb trim, lamb breast, whole chickens, beef trim, beef heart, beef necks, sardines and anything else meat (pref on the bone) that I can find that's suitable. I also feed small amounts of organs - liver, kidneys, brain. I am under the impression that dogs stomachs are intended to stretch out for large meals and this aids the digestion process - and that bloat isn't necessarily connected with once a day feedings... saying that I am still learning so if anyone has any information that states otherwise please point me in the right direction. Jess

thats so cute! my two labby's suckle in their sleep with their lil pink tongues sticking out a bit... gawd it makes me

wowsa bear is GORGEOUS!!!

Hi Guys, I am new to DOL and relatively new to raw feeding or prey model diet (about 5 months so far). When I started I was/am feeding a 9 year old cocker spaniel, an 18 month old labby and a 3 month old labby. Basically what I can recommend is to read through sites already mentioned in this thread, namely www.rawfed.com and www.rawfeddogs.net and also join the yahoo rawfeeding group. These are all the resources I used and have done great with - I haven't bought any books or such - just heeded the advice given which made sense to me. Basically I try to keep things as simple as possible, I am feeding 3 dogs and 3 cats. My feeding example is this, yesterday I went to the supermarket and the butcher, I bought lamb necks, lamb trim (about 15 kilos), beef trim (for the kitties they love love it , beef brisket, lamb breast, beef liver & kidney, lamb liver and heart, beef heart, kanga mince and some canned sardines and tuna. All this will last me two weeks - I packed some away in the freezer and the rest I left in the fridge ready to TAKE FROM FRIDGE AND FEED TO DOG easy as that As the saying goes aim for 80% meat, 10% bone & 10% organs which can be balanced over a day, a few days or even over a week. Take heed from the poop you are thus presented with after the switch to raw (smaller, more compact and not as smelly poops) its a winner with me! Along with other changes such as more shiny silky hair, cleaner teeth (a real biggie, specially further down the track), more satisfied specially when I feed meals they have to work at. The big things I have learnt along the way are: 1. Feed big bulky pieces when you can (and to avoid those whom like in inhale food rather than chew!) 2. Start slow with one protein source and slowly slowly venture out to another, and then another, eventually adding organs 3. Remember that the Raw or Prey Model diet is ruled by MEAT, not bones. Once you know your dog, feed as much variety as you can find. Cost wise I come out at about $70ish a week for 3 cats and the 3 dogs. The resulting health I now see in my cats and dogs leads me to believe this is not only worth it, but could end up cheaper down the track when I can forego on teeth cleanings at the dentist (my cocker had 2 out before the swap and it wasn't cheap) along with resulting health problems from feeding a diet not appropriate for carnivores. Oh and the only supplement I give is Omega3 capsules (due to particular animals now being fed grain instead of grass). RED MEAT RULES Jess