Quickasyoucan

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/girl-bitten-coun...00415-sefq.html Girl bitten: council 'can't hold dog' PAUL TATNELL April 15, 2010 - 1:36PM A council holding a Staffordshire bull terrier that allegedly attacked a seven-year-old girl says it could be forced to release the dog back to its owner. The girl received bite wounds to her face and shoulder after she bent down to pat a friend's dog at Kincumber on the central coast. The girl was treated at Gosford Hospital and released last night. The dog was taken by Gosford City council rangers. Compliance manager at Gosford City Council, John Parkes, said it was up to the dog's owner to decide whether the dog should be destroyed, even if the animal did pose a risk. He said the owner’s premises would need to be secure and the dog restrained. "There is no legal basis available to council in relation to a dog attack matter and where the dog can just be put down," he said. "We can only act in the powers we have to us." Mr Parkes said he expects the owner to contact the council within the next 24 hours with a decision. He said it was up to police to decide whether any charges would be laid against the owner. "I’ve seen a video of what actually happened and we are concerned when any dog bites anyone in a public place," Mr Parkes said. It is understood the alleged attack was captured on CCTV, but requests for footage have been declined. A Gosford police spokesman said the victim's family did not want a police investigation into the matter. The spokesman said without a complaint, police could not investigate further. Councils can only decide a dog's fate if it features on the dangerous dog list created by the NSW Government. Staffordshire bull terriers do not feature on this list. _______________________________________________ NB Bolding is mine, why wouldn't it be important to get the actual picture of what happened? Still I wonder if that means requests by the media.

I am wondering what the background to this story is. There hasn't been much relating to the girl's injuries on the news sites. I went to a dangerous dogs seminar at TAFE given by Steve Austin I remember him saying he had been working with inner west councils in relation to some schools where they had had a cluster of dog bites from dogs tied up outside the school (because they are not allowed on the grounds). People were tying up their dogs whilst they went inside to pick up kids, strange kids were coming up to pat the cute dog, dog has no flight option from scary stranger and hey presto perfect bite conditions. It didn't say whether or not this dog was tied up outside but I always cringe when I see dogs tied up outside shopping centres, accident waiting to happen. SOUFF didn't you know all dogs were ticking time bombs

Sort of off topic but on the topic of allergies I thought I read somewhere that terriers in general can be prone to skin issues? That would be kind of big and across the board though West Highland Whites do immediately spring to mind as I have met several with terrible cases of the itchies. Back on topic we have had some itchies issus with my crossbreed who has some stafford in him and he is black, well black with a brownish tinge, not brindle (he also has border collie in him). Diet seems to have sorted him out though and he is 100% better than he was as a youngster.

I have a "clicker" here who consistently failed to produce clicks every time I asked the vet about it until the very last time we saw the orthopaedic surgeon for a possible cruciate problem and he finally "performed". Surgeon had a good look at it and said yep clicky hocks not clinically significant. Guess it is just like some people with clicky knees. though to be fair my dog has clicked since a young age maybe get it checked out if it has just started happening?

Having a dog that wants to be with you 24/7 is great, but you know there are advantages to one being a bit more independent too. (like being able to go to the toilet without being followed ) I guess if you have experiences with a bull breed I want to be your skin 24/7 then it is different, but I am sure it doesn't mean she doesn't care.

Just out of interest has the Gold Coast Council or the Queensland Government produced any bite statistics to show that BSL is actually working? As Poodlefan said in an earlier post, BSL has been shown not to work in Canada and Calgary has a model set up that is working that does not have BSL and does not have mandatory spay neuter but does invest money in dog ownership education and has resultant high rates of dog registration. I know this does not help Tango, but a focus on what does work IMO would be better than arguing semantics over breed.

No need to pilot. The Calgary (Canada) example exists for all to learn from. Yeah but wasn't that twisted by someone recently to show it didn't work. How do we get that to the forefront of the argument? News to me. How do you do it? By establishing a dialogue with those with the capacity to overturn the laws.. the RSPCA and politicians. Bear in mind that these are the very same folk who've been demonised by a sector of the anti BSL lobby. I am sure there was something on here, might have been a Hugh Wirth extract, stating that the Calgary example had been a failure or something to that effect, I am sure I remember comments that was wrong. Of course I could be going completely crazy

No need to pilot. The Calgary (Canada) example exists for all to learn from. Yeah but wasn't that twisted by someone recently to show it didn't work. How do we get that to the forefront of the argument?

BSL has to be fought on the one irrefutable fact that BSL breed discussions tend to ignore. It doesn't work. It has never worked. Targetting "dangerous breeds" fails to protect community from all dangerous dogs. End of story. I wholeheartedly agree, the only way out I can see is to get some sort of pilot going to actively reduce dog attacks based on owner education (not indiscriminate killing of dogs deemed to be dangerous based on breed), to provide actual proof that this is how dog attacks can be reduced. I just don't understand why lawmakers cannot see this. I guess it is a question of votes, the quick fix answer. I think this relates to something bigger than the Amstaff/Pitbull debate (no offence to owners of either breed intended), while everyone bickers about the fact their breed of choice should be saved, no progress is going to be made. I would like to see dog attacks reduced (irrespective of BSL), getting something going that really worked woudl benefit everyone - the victims and the dogs. ETA horrible spelling.

No I wasn't offended but all the accusations and anger really don't help the dogs. You really don't want to be alienating fence sitters because they have the capacity to jump either way. Have a good think about what people expect of the ANKC with regard to this issue although if the AST is going to be drawn into BSL, my very strong hope is that the organisation will enter the fray. No one wants dogs to die (or at least that is my very sincere hope). But its hard when people break the law or buy unpapered dogs when the ramifications of doing that are dire for the dog and are totally predictable. The biggest hope for overturning BSL in Qld lies with the RSPCA. People need to learn to be civil and argue facts and to lobby the organisation with the power and influence to get changes made. I think that is very well said PF, though given that the vast majority of dogs in Australia are unpapered I do think that some people buy unpapered dogs merely out of ignorance. A lot of people think "papers" are what you get from council. Add to that the fallout from PDE and there is a whole bunch of people who think that crossbred upapered dogs are the way to go. I am not surprised that there has managed to be a court ruling that Amstaffs are Pitbulls, you only have to look at some of the public comments on the various media websites to see that the "pitbull" myth has been well and truly disseminated to include all bull breeds or anything that remotely ressembles a bull breed. In parts of the US the term pitbull includes, staffordshire bull terriers, Amstaffs and pitbulls, registered or unregistered. In France staffordshire bull terriers (registered ones) are considered a guarding breed (wtf?) and are supposed to wear a muzzle in public. I believe bull breeds are totally banned in Germany (registered or unregistered). If the BSL train carries on its momentum and goes in the direction of some US states/councils or European countries, I don't think being a pedigree is going to matter. It does make me fearful for the future of dogs.

Here is latest from Gold Coast Bulletin for what it is worth http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2010/0...court-news.html Couple's dog fight on shaky ground Melinda Marshall | April 6th, 2010 A COUPLE'S six-year, $500,000 fight to keep their dog on the Gold Coast is on shaky ground after they today lost their court battle. Their dog Tango was ruled to be an American pit bull - a breed not allowed to be housed on the Gold Coast. But this afternoon, the council handballed the issue back to the State Government, saying they would take no further action for now. Kylie Chivers and John Mokomoko had taken on the Gold Coast City Council in the Supreme Court over the identification of their dog as an American pit bull, as opposed to an American staffordshire terrier. However, Judge J Martin today ruled Tango was an American pit bull. Under council's by-laws the dog is now deemed dangerous and needs to be put down. Councillor Bob La Castra, at a press conference this afternoon, said the court's decision confirmed the position the Gold Coast Council had taken. He called on the Queensland Government to clarify whether American staffordshire terriers should be treated the same as pit bulls, saying no further action would be taken until the State Government made their intentions known. ``We will just, pardon the pun, be chasing our tail until such time as we know what the State Government ruling is,'' he said. To keep the animal safe the family moved it to a kennel just south of Tweed Heads more than five years ago, where it could be registered as an American staffordshire terrier. Today's decision could have wider ramifications for thousands of dog owners who believed their American staffordshire terriers were a different breed and not subject to the same dangerous breed by-laws.

I have never met a dog behaviourist (regardless of methods) who is a fan of off leash parks. As for the parvo thing, a friend of mine had parvo with a pup recently, which survived, they also own a rottie and were advised by a specialist that black and tan dogs are more susceptible to parvo than others, this was a specialist vet that told them and I did google it and there appears to be quite a bit of literature that supports that. If it were my dog I would: a. not be having it anywhere near an off-leash dog park, b. be wary of parvo and be avoiding off-leash for that reason too. As for the BSL comment, I agree with Poodlefan about the irony given the OP's breed of choice, dobermans were the idiots breed of choice at one time - devils dogs I think that's what they were.

I was given a book Wine Dogs for Christmas, very amusing reading it is in all the shops, would appear that almost every winery has a dog of some description, some purebreds some mutts. Apparently the author wrote the book as every vineyard he visited had a resident dog. Tempus Two has a stafford

Very true, Poodlefan, although you must admit that there ARE memebrs of this forum who seem to delight particularly in flaming, insulting & bullying people. I am one who was massively flamed in a thread I started about re-homing a dog. Eventually I asked for it to be removed, not because I was "sooking" but because it was getting completely pointless. But did you not expect people to have strong opinions on a dog forum when you talked about rehoming a dog. Regardless of the reason, and I don't know your reason, in amongst dog lovers someone is going to have strong views about that, some are going to agree and some are going to sit on the fence. I am curious as to what you expected when you posted what you must have known would be a controversial topic. I havent' been around here that long, but it is not hard to see what across the board people are going to find controversial, ie rehoming, crossbreeding, health issues etc. That is the nature of a forum.

sorry but Sybil

I actually think the forum is well moderated. You never get any people coming on here with obscenities (or not that I have seen). Sometimes you can see people have an agenda, but if you come on here posting something like - I am breeding my unregistered dog, I think I need to rehome my dog, I want to know how my 4 large undesexed male dogs can live together in my 42sqm apartment etc, you will get responses you don't want to hear. This is a DOG forum, people are passionate, as Troy said. I don't agree with a lot of things that are said here, but I also get a lot of very useful information. Some posters contradict themselves in what they say, some lord it over people, but I just have a chuckle to myself and move on.

My 45kg Deerhound needed extensive surgery to reattach his thigh muscle after an aggressive 5kg Jack Russell grabbed hold of him. Four years later, he still has a 20cm scar down his leg, and some muscle weakness there. I don't thinks that's very funny. An aggressive dog is an aggressive dog. I don't care about it's size. And for the record, my dog never even TOUCHED the JRT as it attacked him. He was running away from the little turd and it latched onto my boy's thigh. I nearly lost a finger to a serious bite from a silky x. That would have ruined my livelihood and had serious consequences for the rest of my life. I think ALL aggressive dogs are a problem actually, particularly those whose owners think it is cute because they are a small dog and won't hurt anyone.

Trouble is there is only one "breed" that is truly dangerous in all of this and that is us ;) Humans are responsible for this whether it be in deliberately breeding dogs with faulty temperaments or in deliberately mistreating dogs after they are born. Even if we set up the most wonderful breeding program for any type of dog the hoons wouldn't buy it because it wouldn't be cool. There needs to be a way to make those who choose not to be ethical dog owners in any way pay - because money always talks. I don't think we need more laws but I do think we need better enforcement of existing laws to weed out the criminal and irresponsible element. Why dont the rangers scan dogs and fine people on the spot for those which are not microchipped and whose addresses are not up to date (in states where microchipping is compulsory). That's a basic premise and that would mean that contact details would have to be up to date people couldn't just deliver "a dog i found" (ie their own dog they didn't want any more) to the pound and avoid paying surrender fees, each surrender fee paid and or fine paid could go towards better pound facilities etc. there would be less dogs stated as "chipped but not registered" and people would pay for letting dogs wander needlessly. There would be less dogs killed on the roads and better accountability. As SBT123 said, I believe and I think I got this from the Karen Delise book that there is a strong correlation between dog attacks and socio economic "wellbeing" in that I bet if you made a closer examination of the vast majority of serious and fatal dog attacks there would be multiple indicators of socio-economic "illness" surrounding the people and the dogs involved. There is a whole element of dog "owners" out there who need to be reached and I don't think making more laws or banning certain breeds is going to help do that.

But we can pretend can't we? We all know that is why Warley takes her pics in black and white

I had a halti for five minutes. I went to a big dog training club near me and they told me my stafford cross would 'always pull' unless I put him in a halti. I naively bought one. Between me putting my dog in the car and getting home it mysteriously disappeared, I will never know how (what a clever dog I have ) However, I do know how my dog reacted pawing at his face, rolling on the ground when the halti was merely put on, not actually pulled tight or used in any way. I see loads of dogs on my walks on haltis, the majority of them look downtrodden, there is not much joy on the face of a dog being walked in a halti IMO. I have walked my dog on a prong when I was teaching him loose leash walking (yes it is possible even after 4.5 years of arm stretching pulling ), took a few weeks and we have a great walk on a loose leash with a martingale 99.9% of the time (hey no one is perfect). For the records there was no strong reaction when I put a prong on and people have VERY strong opinions about what an aversive that is. I am so glad I persevered and taught my dog to walk properly and believe me he was an ingrained puller I have the physio receipts to prove it. :D

I was only able to go to the first day. I agree with Corvus, he did seem to meander a little at the beginning (reminded me of some of my uni lectures years ago), but then he would drop the odd absolute pearl that had me nodding my head. I got the feeling as he progressed that he was starting by setting a wider philosophical framework and then would narrow down over the course of the 3 days but obviously I didn't go to the other 2 so that is my view. I definitely want to try and read the books now - slowly! He is a fascinating man, part nutty professor, part genius, but also with a great degree of emotion in how he views canines. I think it is a shame that the only publicity that was in the media focussed on his advocacy of "punishment". Talk about taken totally out of context. This is a guy who has obviously spent his life thinking about dogs and dog behaviour but trying to find scientific backing for what he has discovered rather than just saying this is how it is. Am annoyed I couldn't go to the whole thing. Watching the correction dog demos and the video Steve Austin did about using dogs to protect wildlife from feral pests was also really interesting. There is so much more dogs could be used for. I think well done to the NDTF from what I saw on the first day.

I can't imagine a dog in any other colour they are just not real for me I met a blue the other day at the beach had had 12 months of skin problems and was 18 months old. The breeder had told them the bitch would grow out of it at 2. I thought that's a new one.

Nice dog, but if I were the breeder I would be annoyed to have the dog referred to as a british springer spaniel. I know springers do really well in bomb detection in the UK and are quite widely used. Surely they could get the name right though!

If they believe the dog is a cross bred then how do they go from breed component, to inbreeding being a causal factor of the dog's issues? As dumb as their logic is - this dog has some bulldog in its breeding so its problems must come from bulldog inbreeding - it is PB bashing albeit dumb PB bashing. I watched an episode of dogtown with a rottie or maybe rottie cross in it. They spent quite a bit of air time saying all his problems were due to him being a purebred. Put me off watching the rest of the show.

Agree with Nekbhet, and I would pay ANYTHING to get my dog back if he ever went for a wander, which unless someone maliciously attempted to get through the security I have in place it would never happen and if it did I would be very glad someone found him and he was safe. I don't have unlimited funds but I would make sure I paid whatever was due. Dogs don't die in the pounds because responsible owners won't pay to get them out. It's the irresponsible ones that care more about their latest gadget or whim or holiday than their pet who leave them there to die and I doubt it is because of the cost of getting tham out. Seriously, dog ownership has costs, if you move you need to add updating details to the list of things you do when you move ie redirecting mail, changing electricity etc. If your dog is outside (and there is any likelihood it might escape) it needs to wear identification, you can get break away collars if you are worried about strangulation incidents. If there is a genuinely wrong application of the law ie the dogs were correctly and currently registered you might have a chance, otherwise I don't see why there should be any right to appeal.