kyndaara

K9: yeah it can be a tricky one, some believe that the dog will never reach its genetic potential if it has had negative reactions to drive... K9: try a few different methods, like restricting all other activities to zero for a while, reducing the dogs options for drive satisfaction to your toy & your toy alone, no walks, no other training & very little interaction can have a big improvement.. Hi: I've appreciated your thoughts. When I started this, I decided that I was going to have to put the livestock training on hold if I was going to to try this type of training. So we are doing what you suggested above. I don't know how much drive we can bring back to the surface and how consistent but its worth a try. The other night I tied a sheepskin tug to a sort of fishing pole/line gadget I rigged to take me out of the picture, somewhat and wallah. I'm also able to make the toy much more prey like. She was really interested. Now I have to learn to work for just a few minutes and quit while she's still highly interested. I have a BAD habit of doing things too long. I'll do more when it warms up around here. I really need to work with her outside in an open space. Again, thanks. I'll report in with an update. Kyndaara

K9: look I know its only terminology but when I erad it like you have written, it is drive limiting just to think that way... What should control the dogs drive is the dog, not your permission, I allow the dog to do as many dumb things as it likes until the dog decides that the best way to achieve drive satisfaction is my way, not me issuing or revoking permission.. I KNOW. Again, this is traditional herding training and her history vs. ideal. Due to her history, she doesn't think that DRIVE is allowed. That's what I have sought to change. K9: wrong, she would its about prey drive not rank drive. Once the alpha allows prey drive to exist, it becomes part of the alphas desired behaviours.. Again, the alpha [me] didn't allow it to exist or develop it from puppyhood and indicated with other training [i.e. w/ livestock] it wasn't desired--therefore, it extinguished somewhat. The issue has been can I revive it. K9: maybe? or looking for a way to reduce your alpha status with this game perhaps? I dont know as I cant see her... But, even if it is working, what I was on about was, your starting to get results, but results with flaws built in if you get my drift? Yes, I get your drift [i.e. results w/ flaws]. This is why I felt I needed a PROGRAM. K: I haven't worked her according to a Program. I was thinking that I may be reaching a point where I could work her within a program and what I read of yours seemed ideal. K9: this work can be a little tricky without all the steps, it will always look like results are coming but good results are another thing. As I mentioned, my total program isnt anywhere you could read it as such, we do run distance learning programs but they are designed individually. K9: sorry I wasnt aware of where you were, & no I just havent had the time to put together a video... The problem I guess I have with videos are that they often only show how it goes when things run to plan, not what probably will happen in your home... Understood. K9: Any style of training where adrenalin flows is technically training in drive, even stressing a dog in avoidance is training in drive, there are training methods that teach the dog to act in a way that achieves drive satisfaction through the handler & there are programs that use a drive reward, to me & to your dog, they can all vary greatly... Yes. I was hoping to establish one and then eventually get to the other.

Okay, lets say I'm playing tug and after she has a good grip and really commits to her, I let it go. Since she has a long line attached, but I'm not holding it, she can't run off with it. So instead of her usual sort of prancing away with it, she sort or circles back with it in her mouth directly towards me, obviously wanting to tug again. She doesn't have access to the tug because, she only sees it when I take it out. Her possession episode was the night I let her in from outside. She was pretty hyped so I decided to take advantage of it and play with her. She was really into it and when I let it go, she ran off and jumped into her crate with it wagging her tail. I thought it was pretty funny and finally the spirit that I have been trying to get. With my corgi, he's already working for the tug game; i.e. I can ask for obedience behavior and he gets the tug as reward for the behavior and he sees it as a reward. Right now, I would say he's still probably more food driven. With both of them, I'd still say the food is the higher value item. Last night and tonight, thinking about what I have read in this thread, I put her food down and indicated that, no, she couldn't have it. She stared at it for a couple of seconds and then looked up at me with attention. After a couple of seconds, I marked it with yes and released her to eat. Soooo my intention was to bring the drive to the surface and THEN start to train with it. I've been doing pretty well with training with food drive. She loves to snow. We got eight inches and she was having a blast. I went out with the tug and wallah. I quit with her begging me for it. Besides I was soaked and TIRED. Incidentally, I tried the tie out probably over a year ago---long before I read this thread. I don't think that was clear in my initial post so its not a matter of having tried what I read and it didn't work. Its a total different scenario now which why I thought she might be READY to try the K9 program. So far I have read and taken notes thinking about what I've done and what I could do better. This is not ohhh I've tried the program as people have described in this thread and ohhhh, its not working for me. I was trying to give the condensed version of what I had done so far in trying to free up a drive I inhibited with other training and questioning whether to start with what seems like just the right training system for how I want to train and relate to my dogs. I've seen a lot of benefit from what little I have done. I was out carting with a friend Khira is new to carting but after a couple of outings she has the turns and such. She alread has a stop and back up commands from herding. One of her prey triggers is little fluffy toy dogs. So here we are hitched to the cart and she wants to go ballistic over the dog. The first time it occurred, I resorted to pack with a "PLATZ!!!' She did it but she held a cold fixed stare on that dog until we were out of site. This is not what I wanted. I thought maybe I shoudln't subject her to the triggers until I had worked through what I understand as the drive training. But since my friend would have been major disappointed, I decided I would be better prepared the next outing. I spent the week really working with the food/marker training. So once again, we are hitched to the cart for our mile walk in the park and here comes the little fluffy dogs. I train a leave it command which means turn your attention away from what its on and give it to me [since she was 7 weeks old with the cat]. I gave the command and when she turned to me for I contact I marked it with a yes and treat. We sat there for awhile and pretty soon when she would spot a dog, she would turn toward me--yes, mark, treat. Eventually, we began walking and I came upon a lady with three toy dogs on flex leads. Normally, I would alter my path. I decided to see how she would deal with it. No fixed stare. I didn't tense up and growl "leave it." She actually walked right passed them with an attention heel. I marked it with yes and a treat. Now for the herding. I've been training herding dogs for ten years. You are not going to have to deal with a Kelpie with what I deal with working with and trialing a GSD, Bouvier des Flandres or the corgi. The drive and intensity that they display leave most people scared to death for their livestock [unwarranted]. When I first started they were considered wolves by breed and only the BC was considered a proper herding dog. That has changed for the better but we still see the old biases. The corgi pup [year old] is now doing straight walk ups on cattle and holding pressure. He is very calm/relaxed--no anxiety or stress. This I attribute to the helper work in schutzhund and my training with the drive and marker system. He doesn' know stress. When I instinct tested his sister she was busy offering me behaviors out side of the pens where sheep were being worked. All attention was on me. When I took her into the pen and dropped the long line, she immediately went to work to gather the sheep and called off to me. She has TONS of drive. The only excercise I do with her is that before I will put the food bowl down, she has to sit STILL with good eye contact with me; then yes, release to eat. I 'd only done it a few times before I took her out on the sheep to instinct test. This is why I like this training so much and I plan to carry it over more to my herding training. Kelpies, like BCs are eye dogs. They are different in that they come into pressure much more readily but they have the same control tool [eye] and they will move off handler presssure. My breeds don't readily move away from pressure. They come into it to conquer it. A couple of trainers have had Australian Kelpie imports--wayyyyy cool. If you can find a way to go to a Greg Prince seminar--jump on it. One of the herding trainers our club has brought in for has had Australian Days at his farm. Each year they would bring in an Australian trainer. Kyndaara

I understand what you indicate in terms of your program and the differences. Part of the drive issue is permission to be in drive. For most of her life I've indicated that only low levels of drive are acceptable, given the livestock work and traditional herding training. From a pack standpoint, would she tug with the alpha? No. So a lot of my focus had been aimed at getting her to engage in the tug and BE in drive. So reducing my alphaness was one way. A companion to this was even seeing a toy as a prey item. So we went from zero interest to her seeing it as something of value; i.e. now she at least wants to possess it and win it. If she's intitiating the game--okay maybe that's a dominant feature---but now she's looking to me for satisfaction? I haven't worked her according to a Program. I was thinking that I may be reaching a point where I could work her within a program and what I read of yours seemed ideal. Anyway, we can't travel from the US to Australia so I won't be able to attend a clinic. I was wondering if you had a video series like what I've seen of Balabanov. Reading the thread was very helpful. A lot of what I've seen in Khira has occurred in other dogs. The dog that who became a expert ratter as his drive increased comes to mind and handlers talking about the bumps and bruises as the drive unleashes. As for YOUR program, no I don't know it. I've only been able to see references to it within this thread. Our schutzhund club uses a form of drive training. Your program seemed to presuppose an attaction to something and using it as a motivator where the dog does what the handler wants to obtain access to it and satisfy his drive. The benefit for the handler is that the dog isn't given to environmental distractions because he sees his handler as the ultimate attraction and vehicle for satisfying his almighty prey drive. Thanks for your time and thoughts. Kyndaara K9: I am not sure that you have a good grasp of what needs to be done in drive training, my actual program (its not on DOL anywhere) has steps designed in to avoid the pitfalls such as possessiveness, chasing other prey, owning the triggers etc. If your anywhere near us or a seminar, I suggest you come along & see a better outline of what I do, it can get a bit confusing.. K9: this may not be pure prey drive though, it seems she may be driven by a pack advantage? K9: Your dog should not be able to initiate the game...

Hi Kyndaara I was having(and to some extent, still having) problems with triggering high drive with food. Like you, I am getting super drive at night time, (the time when I have always fed him) as opposed to a medium drive during the daytime. I have now started to feed in the mornings, and there has been a definate improvement........but still at probably 60 percent of what his night time drive is. I am thinking that the darkness may be a further trigger? Another of my problems in the past was that I was not consistantly using a trigger command. I think that these two mistakes were the reason for this problem......maybe K9 may want to chime in? No, I didn't have a trigger command either. I feed at different times. Its not really set in stone. All she has to know is that I'm preparing the food. All the dogs have it down to the sounds I make in the kitchen. Then she starts to go nuts. It took awhile but once I started doing clicker based training, then I started getting the food drive and her offering me the behaviors. Is it bonkers drive like when I feed, no. Ultimately, I'd like to switch to the tug. She's just not really seeing the tug as ultimate prey and the rode to drive satisfaction yet. K9's program seems ideal but the tie out seems to presuppose her seeing the toy as a high value prey item. I don't think we are quite there yet. We are doing better though. This is a dog that initially looked at the tug toy as who cares. Now she is playing with it with me and even thinking in terms of possession. With the prey increasing though, I she's reverting to puppyhood and with that comes her prey obsession with our house cat and my call ducks. For instance last night she jumped two baby gates in pursuit of the cat. Once she got to him it was like a light bulb---uhhh, I'm not allowed to continue with this. I've been instilling in her since she was seven weeks old---thou shall not touch the cat. I usually keep her under a pretty tight rein but had gone downstairs. I try not to give her opportunity for self reward or prey satisfaction. I know part of it is that for most of her life I've said no prey drive so she's not comfy with me going into drive. I've had a lot of success with her on the porch and me standing on the ground so essentially she is elevated above me and wallah I get drive with her bringing initiating play with the tug. Maybe I need to stay in this scenario much longer until she is just nutso and then change environments. Cyber training is tough and unfortunately I can't travel so far for a clinc. Our training director just started telling us after the winter trials that we need a word to signal the start and a word to signal the end. So for sure I think the drive trigger command or cue I need to incorporate with both dogs. With my corgi, he just automatically goes into, what can I do for you and he's in snappy drive. But, he's been trained this way from the start and doesn't have any baggage. Kyndaara

Hi: I'm new to the forum. I live with three breeds: German Shepherd Dog, Bouvier des Flandres and Pembroke Welsh Corgis. Until recently, we primarily competed in herding trials. However, I recently joined a Schutzhund training group with the goal of doing competition obedience with my corgi and possibly schutzhund with the bouv [yes she is sound and well balanced]. I actually started my corgi pup with the group when he was six months old. The training is similar to K9's drive based training. My corgi pup is doing really well and he loves the bite work. Our highlight last week was after springing a couple of feet off the ground for the tug, he first brought it to me and then circled back to re-engage the helper. He literally wakes up every morning with "what can I do for you," and he is an example of a dog well on his way as seeing me as the ultimate; i.e. drive satisfaction which I have been working on. There is another USA trainer [Kevin Behan, "The Natural Dog Trainer"] that is also consistent with K9's training program. I've used this with my 3 year old bouv to try to un-inhibit her drive. She was VERY high prey drive as a puppy and young dog. However, because of my stock work, I squelched it with lots of control training which is pretty good within that 12 foot circle <vbg>. About 6 months ago, I decided to put her herding training on hold to see if I could do drive based training because I think its more reliable. Traditional training really strives to decrease drive instead of establishing control of it when its at its higher levels. It took a lot to experiementing with different toys and different set ups to get her to play tug with me. We are not at the point of her seeing it as a reward. I can remember attempting to tie her out but she basically went into avoidance. She is starting to see the tug toy as a prey item. However, she isn't obsessed with it like the schutzhund dogs who have been raised with this method and haven't experienced live prey. We are definitely increasing drive and increasing her attraction to me. As she becomes less inhibited, its almost like she is returning to what she was like as a puppy. She has pretty good food drive and will offer behaviors for reward with good drive. She's very much a work in progress. I'm thinking pretty soon she might be ready to try the tie out and K9's drive development program. I recently had a good session running side to side and engaging a good game of tug. I realize she had three years of the control stuff and I might have permanently destroyed her genetic potential but I'm patient. I'm curious about the TOT program. My thoughts are that with this particular dog already trained in pack/alpha [albeit not as much a free choice scenario as laid out in the TOT program], should I raise her drive levels first with the tug before moving to pack training? From the time she was a puppy, I did an obedience routine which changed nightly before I would release her to eat. Her drive is definitely high with her reaching frustration when its not going her way. When I started 6 months ago, I could only get drive around feeding time in one part of the house. We are now getting it in different parts of the house, outside and even away from home. However, its not consistent yet. Kyndaara