Wobbly

Inez, are you pro BSL or anti BSL? You are one of the most prolific posters on the subject, yet despite all your noise it's still unclear to me where you stand on the issue. Please respond, I am interested. A simple statement of "Yes, I support BSL" or "no, I don't support BSL" would be more than adequate. I'm only asking 4 or 5 words from you for clrification, not a big ask given your usual volubility on the subject.

You are wrong. I agree wholeheartedly with you. All I want is the owners of these dogs to be as responsible for theirs as we are for ours. NONE of my dogs have ever been allowed to roam. I do not believe it is safe for either my dogs or fair for anyone to be confronted with a strange dog be it running in front of their car and causing an accident, or going into their property or risking their stock may be frightened or wost case attacked or cause fear of attack. It is absolutely infuriating to come home and find someone elses are on my property, chasing my stock or attempting to attack my dogs. We shouldnt have to wake up to the screeaming of our neighbours sheep or goats being torn to pieces, to find a foal or a calf mauled through no fault of its own. Of course in surberbia its children, pets and in this latest tragedy that poor jogger. If I and my friends can be responsible for our animals WHY on earth cant others be just the same? If they really cared for their dogs regardless of whether its a toy or a giant breed. It belongs AT HOME and under supervision. What is really needed is strong enough laws that people who dont can be prosecuted with more than a dont be naughty again. Banned for life from ever owing one again if they repeat offend. As for the sickos that get their kicks when they run down working dogs any chance they get on roadsides moving their owners stock or in the case of the poor husky pup shoot it as its happlily running to them? At least that one has had his guns confiscated. But many just use their cars, they should still be held to account if their number plate can be read. It wont ever stop these things happening, murders still happen, but any reduction possible would be at least a cause for celebration. Knowing the potential of your chosen breed and and making sure accidents cant happen is the best start surely? Feel the need to quote to account for the retrospective editing. This post implies that you don't support BSL, however every other post you've written implies you do support BSL, which is it?

So glad he's feeling better. I had a horror run a couple of months ago - a shoulder injury followed by a leg injury, with a broken toenail that got infected (just for variety's sake). It never rains but it pours, glad he's home and on the mend now. Give him some get well soon belly rubs and neck scratches from me, he's such a lovely looking guy and always strikes me as a great little character.

So you aren't pro BSL?

What I've gotten from a scan of some posts is that people do support BSL. Well we have BSL, yet people are still being maimed and killed by dogs in alarming numbers. BSL doesn't work, it's unenforeceable and ineffective, maulings like this one are pretty clear evidence of that. Imagine if APBTs etc were made legal. People could acquire the breed from responsible, registered breeders instead of the BYBs who are currently the only option. Were APBTs legal, they would be eligible for conformation shows, some lines could be bred for pet temperament and conformation showing, with lower drive, and higher arousal thresholds, great for suburban families. Other lines would be bred for work (by which I mean sports like weight pull), these pups, being of working temperament must be homed far more carefully, only to people capable and dedicated enough to meet their rather demanding management requirements. The only way to ensure the latter are being homed appropriately is to make them legal so that the responsibility is taken out of the hands of BYB cowboys and put in the hands of responsible, registered breeders whose practices are subject to scrutiny by regulatory bodies. Supplement the responsible breeding and homing of pups (which can only occur is BSL is repealed) with education programs, strict enforcement of leash and containment laws, jail for owners of dogswho maim people, and we really would have the beginnings of legislation that really would be effective in reducing the occurrence of horrific maulings. Repealing BSL would open the way for sensible, effective legislation. Inez (and others who are pro BSL) are vociferously against repealing BSL. Ergo Inez (and co.) are vociferously opposed to any move towards enacting sensible legislative efforts to curb the maulings. The only logical conclusion is that Inez and other supporters of BSL support the status quo - these regular and savage maulings.

The cat smell idea is a great one, i will try this for sure. I don't know Hank. It is so hard for me to understand what determines threshold distance. There are so many factors, I am still thinking a lot about it. McDevitt got the idea for LAT from a lady who had turned her dog's resource guarding snarl into a trick snarl by rewarding it. The lady from reactivechampion blog, in missapplying LAT over threshold, similarly found rewarding her dog's aggression turned the aggressive lunge display into a trick behaviour cued by the appearance of her dog's trigger. In both cases the dog's emotional state changed due to pairing the trigger with the reward. But the aggression display did remain, although their dogs were ham actors and it was clear the snarl and lunge were trick behaviours, not genuine stress. I have seen a reduction in intensity (not sure about threshold tbh) in Jarrah's reactions over time, and I have previously been giving her the frisbee when she's gone over threshold, and I wonder if that helped her in the same way? I suspect it may well have. That frisbee is no.1 to her. I have avoided cats enough that I haven't done it enough to be clear about it though. Obviously LAT under threshold is far preferable, body language affects emotional state as well as vice versa, and I don't want to put my dog under the stress if I can ever help it. And about a million other reasons to keep it under threshold occur to me. I wouldn't ever purposely put her over threshold, not even as part of a rehab plan. But it can happen accidently, so when it does I am going to continue to reward her as heavily as I can. I haven't been using frisbee or tug for the last few cat encounters, since I don't want to destroy it's awesomeness by associating it with cat fear anymore. Obviously she won't take food in that state, but I have bundled her into the car before (car is rewarding, it's associated with walks), running is extremely rewarding too. So I retain these options for accidental cat encounters. It's the same as it always was in practice, but my understanding of the situation has developed. An over-threshold reaction is not what I want to ever see, but accidents happen, and interrupting and rewarding as heavily as the situation can accommodate is absolutely the best response, since it will further my goal of pairing trigger with reward to get an emotional response change. At the minimum, understanding this allows me to walk the suburb without being worried about cat encounters. Running is a high value reward (even more so since I do it so rarely), adding lots of voice encouragement can act as the interruptor. I am hestiant to give her a yes or click for an overthreshold reaction, I haven't ordered my thoughts enough yet to say why exactly, but although i want to give the reward, i don't feel I want to mark it with my usual reward markers. Non reward marker vocal encouragement will interrupt and also add to the reward, hopefully the happy tone will nullify any idea she might get that we are running because the cat's a threat, I am not sure if this is a factor, but to be safe I want her to be very clear that the reason we are running is purely because running is fun. I remember you tried this Hank, and you weren't convinced the running was helping at all from memory? So this is something I do take into account, not every method is suitable for every dog, and I can't for sure ascribe Jarrah's reduction in reaction intensity to doing this previously. But perhaps running is not enough of a high value reward for Jake to help him pair trigger with reward?

Oh I resisted clicker training for way too long too. But I knew, (intellectually at least) that it was the perfect marker. I was worried I would get it wrong though, so I didn't try for a long time. What eventually got me into it was going to you tube and searching for "starter clicker training" and similar search strings. There is a whole lot of "how to's" that are really helpful, just watch a few and if you're like me you'll find yourself inspired and keen to start.

Wow, i am seeing some amazing progress. I haven't started on cats specifically yet, I'm sticking with ducks for a trigger right now, since if she goes over threshold about them she calms again really easily - she has no fear of them like she does cats. What I am finding most amazing is the focus change. Today she actually did her heeling with full attention in an oval. With enthusiasm. For kibble!!!! It's a trick I have been teaching her in the house (I get great food drive in the house & yard, just not so much outside), but I have never been able to proof it outside, I never thought I'd succeed so I never tried. Today I thought I'd give it a go to see. She did it just as good as she does at home. Wow. I'm not 100% sure of all whys and wherefores of these changes, I am simply following procedures laid out by McDevitt for various different games in CU. Sometimes I can take a bit of time to absorb and understand my experiences and reading, so I can't yet explain what I think is happening & why exactly. All I can say at the mmoment is I am seeing a phenomenal change from no focus outdoors (obviously if I have a tug toy I have her undivided focus, but when it's clear to her I am not in a playing mood, I get no focus at all, or at least I didn't used to get any) now she is refusing to take her break in the "Give me a break" game. This is in just a week or so or thereabouts of work, countering years and years of our "lost in space" (both of our attention on our own thing) walks. I'm putting the cats thing on the back burner for a bit again, I was discussing it with my husband and his observation on her threshold was that there is no threshold distance, if a cat is in her line of sight she goes nuts. Distance isn't a factor. She has improved a lot since he last saw a reaction though, but still, she is pretty extreme about it, I am not sure if I am really ready yet, even with fake cat. I am using the cat home up the road though, but very conservatively, way under threshold, not risking a reaction. I am just working on attention right now, once I understand where I am going right and where I am not (and surely I am going wrong in parts, but I am too inexperienced to identify where) I will think again about fake cat LAT.

Great! I should breed my fear aggressive dog then because temperament has nothing to do with genetics! Absolutely Megan. Just imagine the learning opportunities an owner, given a dog genetically predisposed to fear aggression is afforded, compared to owners of more stable dogs. They will be forced to research and learn about dog behaviour throughout the dogs life, they'll develop an encyclopaediac knowledge of resources designed to help with reactivity, they will end up developing fantastic relationships with all manner of behaviourists, vets and dog training instructors. Their friends and family may even be given the opportunity to acquire new and interesting bite wounds, the possibilities are limitless. Why aren't we breeding dogs like that anyway? O wait, puppy mills & BYBs ARE breeding them. :/ The Karen Delise article is very good. My apologies, my earlier comment was very simplistic. I do tend to forget that all dogs are not terrier types, and that in some cases it's not all about prey drive, there are other instincts bred in or out in the various dog types, eg territorial guarding instinct which I always forget about because it's something I never see with my dog. But still, these aggressive behaviours (in dogs without anxiety issues) are instinctive and a dog's instinctive behaviour, though hardwired, is very amenable to being shaped by humans. The thing about dogs with a low arousal threshhold and high prey drive is that they can be fantastically useful animals and the best of pets, and that's why people breed them. The Ashcroft dogs, imagine if they were owned by say, a weight pull enthusiast. That lower arousal threshhold and prey drive would have been directed onto an item the owner decided was appropriate (ball, tug toy, frisbee whatever)and used as motivation for the dog to pull. All the training would have firmly cemented humans into being part and parcel of the dog's pack drive. Dogs like that are great animals, and can make wonderful pets, but they do require a very dedicated owner, committed to careful socialisation and a lifelong ongoing exercise and training regimen. Some dogs are I agree wired a bit funny, it's a spectrum - the problems can manifest in varying degrees of severity, and socialisation and training can modify them further.

Is anyone having trouble paying for this? The account number given was BSB: 934858 Acc:637000105 My payment got rejected for incorrect number? But I have made no transcription errors. :/ Please take my money, I really want to hear this lady. Her youtube videos are amazing, she has taught me so much. I would love to see her seminar. For anyone sort of on the fence about going, here is a blog post from someone who attended her seminars: http://reactivechampion.blogspot.com.au/search/label/denise%20fenzi Scroll down on the page for the seminar info, it's covered in the earlier posts. (Thanks Corvus for that link, am reading the entire blog, I like this lady and the way she thinks a lot.)

Mean? They're dogs. Canis lupus familiaris, a subspecies of the wolf, Canis lupus. Canidae evolved physically and psychologically to rely on the hunt for survival, they're perfect in every way for the environmental niche they fill. If prey is large, the canid's social bonds allow them to work cooperatively to feed themselves. Humans have used dogs for hunting, bred them for hunting throughout recorded history. We bred them for their pack instinct, which enabled them to work with us cooperatively to hunt, and we bred them for their hunting instinct and drive. To hunt is one of this species most primal instincts. Watch your dog chasing birds, chasing balls. What instinct is evoked? If socialised with humans, dogs see humans as something akin to pack mates. If socialised poorly, failing to recognise humans as their team mates and providers, humans may well be seen as prey. Fast movement will trigger prey instinct. In a normal dog, once the picture of movement is identified as human jogger, the prey drive switches off. In these dogs, inadequate socialisation caused them to identify the human as a potential target. Being, big, powerful dogs, they knew they could take this target down. And they did. Mean? Depends on your definition of mean I guess. More precise to say it's a very primal canine instinct (especially in a pack like that) coupled with a lack of socialisation.

Mel, that link is awesome. I found: http://www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/uploaded_files/publications/1970766974_Dog%20Bites%20Problems%20and%20Solutions.pdf Recommendations for effective legislature include: There's been some pretty remarkable strides in progress as regards our knowledge of dog behaviour, but people need to be educated to benefit. Quite so. The fear of of a trainer with qualifications from a cereal box is valid though. Might be better if part was video, to ensure quality of information. Well meaning, but misinformed volunteer trainers giving out incorrect advice to all and sundry won't help.

Do you know what, it strikes me that I am actually the exact kind of bogan most of you fear and loathe. :laugh: I also am a firm advocate of the tenets of Martin Luther King Jr. "One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws." If you enforce the current laws, as they stand I will disobey. I have no choice in this because of my dogs appearance. She is good with people, would lick a jogger, doubles as a drumkit for my one year old god-son (under strict supervision obviously because his sticky fingers might roam eyewards.) The law in my state would require she is never out of a 10x10 cage without a muzzle, which I find... frankly morally unjust. So, as the law stands, my dog and I are criminalised, my back is to the wall on this. I'm forced into civil disobedience in protest of unjust laws that directly affect me. I can live with that, hell have done for years, but I'd certainly prefer to be on the right side of the law. Make a good law so i can be. So ideas for better laws? An education program and perhaps a workshop? Awesome, education is about as morally just as it gets, I would obey that law with all the smug righteousness of anyone else who diligently adheres to just laws.

The problem is education. Most people with a fear aggressive dog think they have an "Alpha" dog. I come across this all the time, it's ludicrous. People thinking their snarling, slavering dog is tough when the poor thing is screaming in terror. The problem is, as always, ignorance. OK I am so running with this idea, I don't care how much everyone hates it. :laugh: For the video demonstrations; Steve Courtney doing the ToT, we could have Cosmolo for an introduction to dog reactivity and managing it. Erny would easily be persuaded to help too, her choice of what component to take - there is so much to cover I am not actually sure what is neccessary & what is fluff. Glenn Cooke too. Nekhbet to do the hardass stuff - the things people don't neccessarily want to hear, but must hear. Don't need to stay local, making a video means you could use anyone, McDevitt, McConnell, whoever you please. I am using people you know so you can conceive of how education can and does make a huge difference. All the information people need to manage any dog safely is out there and available, but sometimes it can be hard to access, and it's not getting through to where it's needed. It actually does need to be shoved in people's faces or it will never filter through.

Not concerned with arguements, just with debating relative merits of different solutions. Laws can't fix this - if people think the laws are unjust, they will break them. Only educating people in how to manage their dogs safely offers any kind of viable solution. That's something, that made mandatory, people would do, grudgingly perhaps in some cases, but they would. Concerning the competency of educators, that is definitely an issue. But consider that animal training has developed so much in recent years, that according to Ken Ramirez it must now be considered a technology. It wouldn't be too hard to get videotaped portions done by people well qualified for the job. Plenty of good behaviourists or vet behaviourists would do it very well. You could have Steve Courtney doing a Triangle of Temptation demo. XD A lot of topics that would need to be covered might best be done with video demonstrations. Eg identifying dog body language, reactivity thresholds, possibly an introduction to LAT (would be very beneficial for everyone needing to teach their dog impulse control, which is pretty much everyone with an adolescent dog) etc ToT, LAT... This is stuff that really everyone who owns a dog should know, it'd help them a lot, but the information is not easily available where it's most needed. It might be possible to offer some kind of initial video/computer presentation so people could do it at home even? A practical workshop would be a preferable addition though, it's one thing to watch a video about teaching a dog LAT, quite another to actually teach your dog, especially since probably for most people this would be the first time they ever wielded a clicker.

I always just think of it in terms of big dogs, especially since all the little dogs I meet are nice little dogs, and I never read about their attacks, so I always think of them as never an issue, but it's true, if they manage to get at a face they can inflict some grievous wounds. So yes it probably needs to be all inclusive. What is needed is education, specifically targeted at people like the owners of these dogs would be better. But that is not possible, unless you have a good idea. So it must neccessarily encompass responsible owners too. Responsible owners would, I would think, ordinarily attend an obedience class or puppy school with their dogs. Do you resent puppy school or obedience lessons? So consider this to be the much same thing, except it's a one off and the topic is "safe management of your pet dog". The cost of the class is included in your registration fee, you must attend to get your dog registration in full.

If legally, you were allowed to buy a car, and get straight on the road, with no driving lessons or practice, how would it go do you think? Probably not very well. If you already know how to drive, you still need to demonstrate that proficiency and take a driving test to get your license. Do kids learning to drive resent the hell out of the 100 hours they need to clock up before they can get P plates? Hell yes I'd say they do. But they do it. And it's a good thing they do, it saves lives. Will some people resent having to attend a day's course to get registration for their dogs? Probably they will. Never know though, Diva, the subject matter being dog behaviour, you might find it really interesting and actually enjoy it, might learn something new. We have the option to stick with BSL, which is obviously working so well (<sarcasm there btw). Or look at different approaches, including education, which in almost all facets of life is the most effective method of harm minimisation. Make up your own mind.

Like everyone says, don't let him off lead. Always remember, if your dog gets hold of a smaller dog and does hurt it, your dog will be put down, not to mention the heartache the owner of the smaller dogs will go through, and the misery the little dog will go through if it has bad injuries. Could have happened with that Maltese. Bad all round. In regards to having a good recall on a dog with DA form: THE main thing I worked on with my dog is recall, but I would never test it off leash around other dogs. Not worth the risk. I don't want to lose my dog to a council order, and I don't want to see another owner lose their dog to injury. If he's really active and you must have him off leash, get onto google maps, find your nearest state forest or council land and go check it out (on leash initially for investigation) to see if there's an area that's remote enough you won't see any other dogs. I have a few areas like that near me, the advantages of living in a less developed area. State forest, crown land and uninhabited Aboriginal land are all good contenders, generally very big tracts of land, where dogs and walkers are allowed. I do normally have to walk a fair distance into the bush on leash to ensure I have the area to myself for any off leash time. If you live in a city you may need to drive quite a long way to find a suitable area. Just remember the more he rehearses a behaviour, the more comfortable he gets with that behaviour and the more he will perform it. So if you keep him on leash and make sure all his interactions with other dogs are controlled and he displays only calm & appropriate greeting behaviour, he rehearses that calm behaviour, it will become a conditioned response. By the same token if you let him rehearse aggressive behaviour, it will become more ingrained. No matter how good he may get on leash though, when overly aroused, dogs will normally revert to instinctual behaviour. So even after practicing many years of calmly greeting other dogs on leash, if he gets over excited or stressed, since he's indicated a few times that his natural response leans toward aggression, you can't ever trust him. No off leash around other dogs, ever. If he gets his jaws around the throat of a little dog, it's very unlikely you could call him off regardless of how good his recall is in other circumstances. Recall is an operatively conditioned behaviour and when the dog is under extreme stress, it can and will break down and the dog will be left with only pure instinct to guide his decisions, and he's given you every indication that his instinctive behaviour tends toward aggression. I would also recommend a behaviourist. Developing an understanding of the whys and wherefores of aggression is an amazing help, and a behaviourist can assess your dog's individual temperament and give you information relevant to managing your particular dog. Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt is also amazing, but in all honesty the unleashed bit in the title is a bit misleading, you probably won't ever be able to have him unleashed around other dogs no matter how much work you do. It's a pain at first, because all of us who have dogs who are untrustworthy around other dogs had probably originally envisaged lovely weekends at the dog beach, all off leash playing. It is difficult to abandon those fantasies, but you do have to let them go unfortunately. Just breathe out and accept it, it can't happen, it's not worth the risk. Once you get used to the management your dog requires though, you will find plenty of equally enjoyable activities that you can indulge in safely with your dog. For years I had only walked my dog in the bush, but just recently I discovered I love walking (on leash ofc) around my suburb too, I haven't lived here long so I am still exploring all the back streets, and learning my way around the alleys and tracks, very enjoyable walks I find.

Who do you think you are, being so sensible and clear minded! :laugh: In a pack... all bets are off. Even a really great sheepdog, who has spent it's life working sheep, if it goes off in a pack of other dogs, can and will kill sheep if that's what the pack is doing. This was a pack of dogs, not really surprising they went on a rampage, not much else for them to do if they're at large in suburbia really, the only target they have when they're in a pack and on the warpath is people. Given inadequate socialisation, people can look like a pretty attractive target to a pack of big dogs, especially running people. I own this kind of dog. Every time I hear of an attack featuring very serious injuries, my heart sinks because I just know a bully breed is going to be held responsible. It pretty much always is, simply because they're the most common (in Australia) of the breeds that are powerful enough to inflict this kind of damage. Other breeds attack with the same frequency, but can't do near the same amount of damage, so no hospitalisations or media frenzies with them. Bullys aren't more inclined to attack than other dogs, but they can do a hell of a lot more damage if they do. It is a lot more responsibility to own one. I have changed my mind recently on this issue - breed is absolutely relevant to dog attacks IMO - it determines how powerful the dog is and how much damage it can do. We do need better laws. BSL as it stands is daft, it makes even the most responsible owners of lie to avoid the regulations. My dog's microchip is a lie, it makes me sad it has to be so. It should say, in all honesty "x breed, pit bull type". Doing away with BSL and making all owners of dogs larger than 25kg attend a management seminar (with their dogs) as part of registration might help as a first step. Encourage owners of powerful breeds to comply with management standards through carrot (education), not stick (breed bans). Make the required seminar something that would appeal to people, it's easy to make education appealing, even the most bogan of bogans will attend a defensive driving course of their own volition, people like to gain more proficiency in their fascinations, so even official govt. channels education courses can appeal if correctly structured and marketed. The responsible owners will attend the required seminar, and in attending, won't be penalised for their breed type. They can also be informed about adequate socialisation, management and containment, and learn to identify the behaviours that indicate potential aggressive behaviour, and the different types of aggression. The really irresponsible owners who won't attend a day's registration seminar with their dogs, won't have their dogs registered, that lack of registration can give some indication to rangers and councils the dogs and owners who really do bear watching. Massive fines for those avoiding registration. Perhaps mandatory temperament assessment of dogs found to be unregistered (why have they avoided registration? can they not manage their dogs in a seminar environment?) before the owner can go through the registration process and reclaim their dog. Expensive for councils? Yes. But less expensive than the current crop of BSL court cases. It is a lot more responsibility to own a powerful breed, and owners of bully breeds, and any other similarly high drive, powerful breeds should be required to demonstrate they can adhere to the level of responsibility required for basic safety before they are extended the privilege of ownership of these dogs. Requiring attendence at a seminar for registration demonstrates some capacity for responsibility. We don't let just anyone drive a road train, prospective drivers must undergo education about safety and management before they are licensed. This approach works, people who want to drive a road train can, provided they complete the educational (licensing) requirements. Same approach would work for people who want to own large powerful dogs, allow it on proviso that they have demonstrate basic competence and responsibility.

Yep that's exactly what I am using, i got a copy of CU from another member here, and I am a total McDevitt obsessive now. I didn't really "get" LAT & Give Me a Break until I read the book. But it's quite amazing, and I think for me completely the answer. I know, laugh at me. I read about LAT here so often, but when I googled it I obviously didn't hit on a source that explained it properly. Highly, highly reccommend Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt to anyone reading this thread. All of the principles in it are marvelous, and for far more then just fear reactive dogs, it's perfect any sort of overstimulation or lack of focus. It completely changed the way I relate to my dog within about 15 pages. I have a ways to go with it yet, all this is pretty new to me. Definitely will check out the link, while it's new to me, it's worth rereading to eke out every nuance I can, so new link is appreciated. Yeah I need to start in an easier area, I had thought the bush would be perfect since we spend so much time in a bush environment (like 2 hours everyday since I got her) I sort of thought she took that environment for granted and would be able to focus on steak. Erm apparently not. But still, I am seeing a huge daily improvement, I still have to call her back for steak though, she won't just come back to harrass me about it yet of her own accord, but fingers crossed she will soon. I am coming from a background of walking with my dog, where I am sort of lost in space in my own thoughts, and Jarrah snuffles and runs and swims to her hearts content and the only behaviour that I have really, really drilled is recall in return for games of frisbee and tug. Even on leash, the only behaviour I've ever seriously drilled is loose leash. We got by in obedience classes (which I've been slack about and need to resume) on the fact all the stuff that's needed there are for her, default behaviours. So to say she is unfocussed on me on walks would be something of an understatement. So "give me a break game" is the order of the day right now, baby steps. Just cooked up a bunch of chuck steak for it. I wonder too if it could help Ziggy attach some value to food? Certainly could be worth trying I reckon. That's awesome news! I would be ecstatic if I could get that kind of chilled reaction to running cats. I was prompted to write that first paragraph because I was picturing Stella trying to organise her own treadmill session, and I realised I've thought the same thing - that the care and dedication of people here is so inspiring, a lot of times in reading the thread, so I thought I'd write it down.

True - not every person suits every dog, some dogs are OTT in one way or another and require experience, time and dedication. Not everyone can do that, no argument. But this isn't one of those dogs, this little dog's only real "failing" that I can see is that it's owners don't want it anymore, there's no real problems with the dog itself. Of course a dog should not be tentative, fearful or anxious, and if you don't have enough interest in a dog to help it through any sort distress like that, then rehoming is definitely the best thing you could possibly do for the dog. I realise that it's the husband in this instance who is unwilling to countenance the idea of putting in the time and effort to address the issue, so kudos to Katetc for seeking advice rather than just surrendering to the pound like most in this situation do. My apologies if I came off harshly, I realise your husband is the instigator of the "dogs must go" ultimatum, and you are actually posting looking for advice and alternatives to add to your discussion with him. I'm sorry you didn't actually get any alternatives, beyond "rehome". The thread subtitle is "rehome, retrain, bond". Let me just restate that, it seems to have been missed: the thread subtitle is "rehome, retrain, bond". No one seems to have considered the latter two questions, it's as though retrain or bond aren't options people consider worthwhile bothering with. The consensus is that if a dog doesn't meet expectations (doesn't 'gel' for example) the very first resort is "rehome" (after all you can always get another dog at a later date if you change your mind again). How about trying to work with the animal -actively work with it- as a first resort. On seeing "sad" behaviour in an animal that you cohabit with? Well for myself, I'd make an effort to identify the cause and find a solution to address it. Vet check, obedience class and talk with the instructor about it, private dog training class and discussion with instructor, a good behaviourist, all these could yield results. But don't go getting another dog, take this as a cautionary tale - your husband (and perhaps you) are unwilling to keep a dog who is operating entirely within the bounds of normal, acceptable dog behaviour. If you're not able to reconcile yourself to Isobel, who sounds like a perfectly nice little animal, it's unlikely any other dog will fit the bill either, don't get another one.

True that Moosmum. Good point. But that lack of judgement can go too far. In this thread it seems that the attitude of "Dog is not meeting my expectations, so I am getting rid of it" ethos is completely acceptable. And over the course of 5 pages that attitude has gained a lot of traction, and a lot of support. So now, for people who may have been on the fence about the issue, or maybe hadn't given it that much thought, the idea that "Dog is not meeting expectations? Then get rid of it" appears to be the majority view, and that's going to influence people's view on the matter. And so it has. So, now this is apparently the accepted view, it's being expanded upon. So much so, that post #67 says "if you get a new dog....". No offense to you Clover, just picking your post because it's on this page, when measured alongside the other opinions expressed here, it would seem to be totally acceptable thing to say, because the party line has become "if a dog doesn't meet your expectations, rehome it (and get a new one later maybe)". And to me that's simply not acceptable view point to be expounding, supporting or accepting. But yes Katetk, rehome the dog if you have no interest in working with it to build a good relationship (your responsibility to do this btw, it's a fundamental aspect of dog ownership), if you can't be bothered to do it, the dog is definitely going to have a better life elsewhere with someone who will. In future, don't get a dog if you aren't prepared to deal with the fact it may not meet your expectations, because the simple fact is that dogs have individual personalities, and if you aren't prepared to accept that, don't get another one.

I realise you're going to rehome responsibly and yada yada. For the record: in cases where there are manifest problems, dogs not getting on together and owner unable to manage the fights, or illnesses & other family crises, indeed, the only solution is often rehoming. But that's not whats happening here. The issue here is simply a lack of interest in the animal. You can't expect a dog to take the initiative and pull out all the stops to bond with you. Developing a happy healthy relationship with an animal you bought into your home is entirely your responsibility. I guess if you don't care enough for the animal to try working with it on this, then it probably is best to rehome. Which brings me to the point that this thread topic, and a large proportion of the comments herein, strongly brings to my mind the image of dogs as disposable consumer commodities. Cute to get a puppy for Christmas, and absolutely fine to pass it off to someone else sometime later due to not enough interest in the animal. I don't agree with this perspective. Don't get another dog after this if you aren't willing to put the work in. So, obviously again I'm standing by a very unpopular opinion, flame away.

I love this thread. Years ago, I met a guy who had just been released from a psychiatric institution, and he told me one of the most meaningful things I ever heard: No matter what happens to you, no matter how bad, so long as there is someone who really loves you, you'll be OK in the end. Same is true for dogs too I think, all the dogs in here are so loved, with owners dedicated to making their life good. I love reading of everyone's patience, hope, compassion, all the progress is so inspiring. Even the despairing posts are still very strong expressions of care for the animals' welfare. It's always good to read about how much dedication, patience and love people put into helping their dogs, that's the stuff that's best about humanity. My plan is going both good and not so good. Steak is not much of a competitor for the bush environment. I could always fast track this with tug as reward but I don't want to muddy my "All New Tug Game, Now Featuring an Out" with it, so I would prefer to use food. The bush environment is so distracting for her though, too many rabbity smells. In the past I have always let her snuffle these smells to her content, so I am working against some pretty reinforced behaviour. she loves sniffing in the bush. Right now, all I'm doing is the "give me a break game", trying to build focus in this environment. I do get some sort of sustained focus now we've done a few days, but she's still very much enjoying her release cue and subsequent snuffling of the environment too. We're a long way behind where I'd hoped to start. I will continue to work on it though. I'm starting to look for other environmental assets to use instead. We go past a known cat home on the way up to the track, the house itself (or it's driveway, where the cat lurks) is a trigger. Today, she ignored the house on the way up, we were on the other side of the road. She had a bit of a hackle and growl at it as we passed on the way down. I think I can use that, I know the threshhold distance, and the street is way less distracting than the rabbitty smelling bush track. There are some environmental difficulties to consider though, I'm wanting to use the house (the driveway entrance) as the trigger, if the cat itself appears that will throw my threshhold distance out the window. I'll need to speak to the owner of the house and ask her to keep the cat indoors while I do it. I have met the lady from the house before (naturally I met her in the context of Jarrah spazzing at her cat, she was very nice & understanding about it). She is going to think I am nuts, well, she wouldn't be alone in thinking that I guess. xD

Great stuff BC crazy. I am so jealous, I want a treadmill for rainy days. So today i am going to fry up a round steak i bought and go do some training practice in a bush track up the road from me. My plan is a bit of LAT, but mostly stuff I am working on now (have new tricks I've been teaching) because she loves swapping tricks for treats, I want her happy, anticipating "OMG yay treat swap for clicker trick time" happy automatically in that place. This, in preparation for when I borrow a fake cat my mother owns that I am going to requisition (unbeknowst to her atm). My mother is a catless cat person, so she has this fake cat, it's very realistic looking, we tease her and call it her road kill cat, it's realistic but it's immobility makes it far better for my purposes than the real thing. At the distances I will have to use in the beginning to stay sub threshhold, I think the illlusion of it looking real will hold for the dog. Rather than the long wordy update I was planning, I'd like to just video this. In general, Jarrah's been good, her basic personality is pretty fearless, this reactivity is not a natural behaviour for her (it was induced by those idiots) so it seems to be fading of it's own accord (ofc I do my best to try to make her understand there is no cause for fear, using whatever environmental feature I can as an asset, or just my jovial "Hey, we're all good here, this stuff is no problem to me at all." demeanour if there's nothing I can use, and I think that helps too, for her personality type). I am hoping the sub threshold work with the fake cat will speed the process of the reactivity fading a lot. I'd just like her to start offering "trick" behaviours to get treats out of me when she sees the trigger. Wish me luck, I am planning to video it so I can get feedback on the work, so hopefully I can work out how to set the camera up & upload. OK, off to cook that steak, I want to start conditioning in expectations of awesome reinforcements in this area I am planning to use first.