Wobbly

Correct Gecko Melz, my day to day life with a Pit Bull type dog is fantastic. I will always do my little bit of local community stuff - people pat her at the cafe and fall in love with her and ask what sort of dog, and I tell them Pit Bull type and that her waggling, licky, sociable, people loving temperament is correct for the breed. On a small local basis it gives people a reality check. Beyond the people I come into contact with though, I am not really sure what can be done? Arguing on the internet, interesting as it is sometimes doesn't really seem to acheive much?

I will always have a Pit Bull type dog now. Current law is unethical so I feel justified in violating it. Were I given the opportunity to give safe harbour to an illegal asylum seeker I would do that too, ethics concerns me more than law. I can advocate for change of these laws I disagree with, but it doesn't really seem to make a dent, I am considering giving up on it. But I will always own a Bully dog. I do find walks are very pleasant - I take my dog to the local cafe and she gets pats and much love from people, I don't notice much of a stigma out in the world, the biggest stigma I encounter is on DOL, to be perfectly honest.

Agree. DOL discussion has me thinking that perhaps I am fine with them being illegal. The millions being poured into BSL would be better spent on effective legislation (Calgary model) and we wouldn't have the problems we have now. But the general populace seems to be averse to effective legislation, and that's pretty much that really. So most likely case scenario from here - they stay illegal, poorly bred BYB specimens of bad temperament predominate, govt resources continue to be poured into pointless yak shaving and people will continue to be bitten. I'm OK with that, life's a gamble and the powers that be can't and won't address many things that endanger us - walk out your house and you run the gauntlet - drunk drivers, rapists, aggressive drunks, muggers, bad dog owners - the list of baddies out there who may compromise your health and wellbeing is legion. Welcome to life, it's not ever going to be completely safe, and you're in for a rude shock if you had hoped it could be.

FIngers crossed for you and Zig, I hope you get to the bottom of it ASAP. Hopefully it's something simple to fix like a food or plant allergy.

IDK, but I reckon it's probably a jangly indie pop band breed, with a deplorable taste in assymetrical coat clipping aesthetics.

The tyranny of distance for me, all the way.

Also band breeds will attract groupies, hordes of squealing, Bieber t-shirted tragics thrusting autograph books at you everytime you venture out into public. Most of us don't want this, but I suspect some, like Aidan might find it image enhancing, which is frankly a big part of the current problem. :p

Band breeds will trash your house, jump on the bed and throw your television out the window, they're reknowned for it, especially the long haired varieties. Wouldn't recommend getting one to be honest.

No, the import ban won't stop anything. Silly to think it will. Most people here will say "Lovely dogs, wouldn't own one though" (me included) because we're aware of how big the commitment to such a dog would be, and we're realistic about our ability to manage such a commitment. Average Joe just thinks: "O wow, what an amazing looking dog, I want one", totally unaware of the reality of how high maintenance a dog like that is. This is an information deficit that could feasibly be addressed by educating prospective owners. An authoritative and comprehensive rundown of the management commitment a dog like this represents, would cause more sensible prospective owners to reassess their capacity to keep such an animal. The best way for that to happen is if the dogs are legalised so breeders can get together and organise a useful and comprehensive education program for prospective owners. I also keep thinking that maybe we rabid anti BSL people need to admit that different breeds requirements ARE very different - so it may be useful to consider that education may need to breed specific. Someone who wants a CKC certainly needs some education, but the knowledge, training and management requirements for a CKC vs a Dogo are poles apart in terms of the commitment required. I am not sure what a framework for differing levels of education based on the needs of a given breed would look like, maybe it's a useful idea, perhaps not, but I think it bears discussion. The dog pictured is in Italy, BSL is repealed there, if a dog hurts anyone, the owner goes to jail. We're missing that essential consequence here. I know I am preaching to the choir on that one. If we had education to prevent disaster, and jail for any injuries caused by negligent ownership, maybe many specific breeds would be less scary to people? I think in Italy, where there is no BSL and larger more imposing breeds of dogs are common, people don't fear particular breeds (they fear stray dog packs, which is a problem in some places there).

I have a really good local trainer here who has suggested that. :D I have conditioned Jarrah to be a bushwalking, swim/fetch/tug dog over many, many years, so naturally her default behaviour is rather environmentally focussed, walks have been about sniffing for her and woolgathering for me for years now. In terms of handler focus, I am at puppy basic level right now - still needing to play to get any kind of sustained focus. I can't believe I had Jarrah for 5 years before I finally found out how much I love training methods like Denise's (and Susan Garrett's, and all the people you guys have probably known of for years and years), better later than never anyhow! I definitely would like to enter a trial of some kind one day when I feel we ready.

He's awesome Jen! Looks like you're both having a ball playing together there, you've done a fantastic job!

Rope around the dog's throat, cut off it's air - it must release to try to breathe, drag it away by the rope and tie it up, don't get close enough to be bitten.

They really are a working dog. They always strike me as similar to the American Bulldogs - if you wanted a weightpull dog, a dock diver, a ring sport dog or something similar they'd be an absolutely fantastic choice. Probably make a great running or cycling companion too. Not suitable for a suburban yard with no sports, work or hard exercise though. You'd really need to be doing a lot of training with them, you can't have a dog of that size and power and "just hope for the best". They are quite aloof dogs, so socialisation especially can't be left to chance. I met a lovely dogo at a restaurant in Florence. His name is Ozzo. You can see here Ozzo is not overly stoked at this meet and greet with me, a stranger. Whilst his commisures aren't pulled forward, his mouth is closed and tense. I wasn't aware of these indicators of body language at the time I met him, or else I would have approached him more politely, not head on challenging as in this picture. But Ozzo's training and socialisation meant he handled his discomfiture with my awkward approach with great aplomb. I even got a lick a bit later on. XD He's a really good example of how excellent they can be in the right hands. I find the idea of them being the sole province of BYBs a big worry. Evidently they are here now, so I doubt that cat can be put back in the bag, it'd be better if they were only bred by people who have the knowledge, understanding and care to only place them in appropriate homes.

It's a twisty knot for sure, and it's very hard to know. I think Stella's issues are one of those cases where it's surely genetic though. The way you shaped her to LOVE a treadmill says that you have the training skills - you must have been supportive and rewarding in exactly the right measure for her to get that so easily and quickly. I always think of "hard" or "soft" in terms of a measure of how quickly the dog can recover from pressure or stress. This way it seems at least a bit quantifiable since you can compare like with like - eg a pressure like a given sharp, loud tone and a measurement of time required for full recovery. This is I think very much a heritable trait, influenced by environment, trust in handler etc, but still ultimately heritable.

Hah LBD, Jarrah is a crab walk heeler too! I am trying to use walls to my advantage for that. XD . . She's pretty much saying that to me now in the course! :laugh: Nancy Gyes, another person for me to keep in my mind. My list of awesome people to check out is getting bigger and bigger. I think I can squarely blame Steve Courtney for putting me on this obedience track, when he taught me to how to teach Jarrah an out and he was explaining to me how his dog thinks, and why, I began to realise all the possibilities I really have with Jarrah. And now I have that out, it's all looking distinctly possible from here. "D I just looked at the CCD requirements - if I was allowed to treat and make noise and play between exercises, and they aren't too worried about our lack of precision, she could totally do that now.

Oooh yay, glad there are more Fenzi fans here! I just watched her youtube of Cisu's OTCH, such a lovely dog and so incredibly focussed! Just amazing. Congrats RubyStar! Bring the dog who you feel would benefit the most I think! I have joined up for Denise's online "Problem Solving" course as a Silver member. The stuff I have learnt so far is just incredible. Denise's insight into my dog, just from a few descriptions of mine is amazing. For a silver member of her courses, it's forum style Q & A. Great format for a recividist forum poster like myself. The Gold Members submit videos of themselves working in addition to the Q&A on the forum. SOme of the things I have learnt so far (this is just over 5 days) : Jarrah's "game" is swim/fetch/tug, this is all one game to her, and it's her one true love (I knew this ofc, I made her like this). I have often played this with her in the presence of running dogs who may pique her chase instinct, since I am confident that it will keep her attention on me and she will ignore the running dogs, that has worked for us for years. Funny how I conditioned this over years, but never really understood what was going on with it at all. I'm glad I did it though, since despite all my mistakes, it's great her drive is well developed. At the time I just did it because Jarrah was such an active dog (classic case of "too much dog" for me), so I needed to get her swimming lots everyday to keep my furniture and sanity intact. Because the swim part of her game requires water, her drive has become location based, she only goes into massive drive like this if there's water. When I switch to just tug in say a park, (no water so no opportunity for swim/fetch/tug) she loves her tug, so she goes into drive, but it's missing the essential ingredient of "Swim", so she's not so obsessive about it. I had sort of grasped this, on a subconscious level, but now I really do understand it. What I realise now ofc, is that the way I have made Jarrah "work" (swim) for her reward, built huge value for the reward, and the association also built value for swimming itself. I could just as easily have made that "work" obedience, and built value for obedience, so I am making a start on that now. We'll always keep swim/fetch/tug as an activity, since that is her passion, we love it. Hopefully I can make the same passion for obedience too (with a few important differences ofc, to address the many mistakes I have made with my approach to swim/fetch/tug). The big breakthrough for me is this - Denise explained a dog's drive can be so strong, it overrides their ability to know they have a choice. So with Jarrah ignoring other dogs when we're playing swim/fetch/tug, it's not that she is making a conscious choice to choose playing with me over running dogs; to her there is no choice, she just must do as her drive compels her and play swim/fetch/tug, she must ignore those running dogs. It's still really compulsion training (in the nicest possible way) since she has no choice. So ofc, when there is no water, no swim/fetch/tug, she finally has a choice between running dogs and me. Amazing I never realised this, but I never did. Denise and Nancy (Denise's colleague who is also an instructor for this course) have set me some exercises and homework. We are working on giving Jarrah the opportunity to choose between me and running dogs, and setting it up so she makes the right choice (playing with me) and then I can heavily reinforce her good choices. Denise says keep the reinforcement just above the value of the distraction. If the distraction is value 7 to the dog, make the reinforcement an 8, if the value of a distraction is 3 to the dog, make your reinforcement a 4. The dog is given a choice, but set up so the dog will make the choice we want. Basically our exercises are playing and training in the park on a long line, sub threshold from other running dogs, so she can keep a clear head and make good choices and be well rewarded for them. Very fun stuff. My other homework is Susan Garrett's Crate Games (definitely Kavik has linked this before, but I didn't follow it up enough to realise how valuable it is, I know now though!). So we are working on that too, it's certainly turning out to be a very busy 6 weeks for us. All fun stuff! Even if you can't attend a seminar, I would highly reccommend Denise's online courses http://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/schedule-and-syllabus There are Bronze level scholarships for people who are having financial difficulties too. Definitely a great thing for forum posters, I am terrible with all other forms of correspondence (if you ever tried to email me you will know that), but a forum set up really works for me. It's also great since I see all my classmates questions and answers too, which is very valuable as well. The course I am really looking forward to is Heeling Games - Jarrah and me have most fun with heeling since it can be a very dynamic exercise. I want to attend that one as a gold member though so Denise can see where we're at there, we need lots of help since I am such a newb at it. I have a few prerequisite classes to cover before I can do that though. Lots to look forward to! The awesome thing for me about finding Denise now is that it comes at a time when both Jarrah and I are getting older, and we both have had some injuries over the years so we are slowing down now, swim/fetch/tug everyday is more than my back can cope with, and she doesn't need it everyday anymore anyway now she's older, calmer and my understandings have increased. Obedience offers us a really awesome framework for interaction together that's very rewarding to us both, on so many levels. We are still very new at it though and need lots of help. Dave Munnings, Jill Houston - some new names now filed away in memory for future reference. XD

O Staffyluv, I hope he's feeling better ASAP. It's so worrying when they're not well, I do think they often know we're trying to help and do appreciate our efforts though. Get better Zig!

Yeah I adore her youtube vids. I have learnt so much from her. Everytime I watch one of her clips I have a new epiphany, the latest one was when I was watching her clip on proofing fronts with Lyra. When Lyra wasn't "getting it", Denise's response was "You're trying Sooo hard" so I started doing that. And found that when I am concentrating on recognising how much effort she really is putting in, I don't get frustrated. It made a huge difference to both how I and my dog feel. We actually did score a handler spot!!! :D I am so excited, (also terrified that I am going to be the most inexperienced and clueless there and make a right fool of myself). I'm thinking I should arrive with Jarrah a little early so she can can acclimatise to the environment before everyone arrives, so she can have a good sniff around and stretch of her legs and a few games of tug to satisfy herself that it's a pretty boring environment and she'd really much rather be working. I imagine I won't be the only handler doing that! I love Denise's emphasis that training comes as a result of a deep, close relationship, and the more I understand her videos and posts (I am sometimes a bit slow to understand), the better we get. I used to buy into the whole "you must dominate/compel the dog to get behaviours" method of training, which of course worked (or at least gives the appearance it's working if you're not connected enough with the dog to see the resulting displacement behaviours it causes) but that style of training left both of us very unhappy. For many years I didn't really do much training beyond the basics because the bulk of the information I was accessing was compulsion based. I think it may have been Kavik that originally posted the link I first followed to Denise's blog? and well I am really making up for lost time with training now! Not that I want to compete or anything, we're just doing it for the sheer enjoyment of it.

Yeh, it's hard to sensationalise the sensible approach enough for mass media to take any notice. XD

Yeah I was so happy when that AVA paper came out. :D Even though none of the recommendations have been adopted, I hope it makes inroads on public opinion, which will drive political will.

O absolutely I agree, but working lines and pet lines should be separate, and with responsible breeders in both fields only givng pups to approriate homes. There are some fantastic German Sheperds available, have a look at Shade Whitesel on you tube. :D I am not sure about Dobes, but I bet if you looked there are awesome working lines, that should only ever go to working homes. Only responsible breeders homing responsibly can do this. I want those kinds of breeders for Pits. From where I sit there seems to be bugger all resources being devoted to the issue at all. Why is it that nearly every dog that features in a serious attack seems to be known to Council. Killer dogs don't come out of nowhere. I wish someone would profile the histories of dangerous dogs. Seems to me that the same profile of dog and owner plays out time and again and bugger all is being done to stop these situations repeating themselves. Masses of court costs, netting loads of heartache - I dunno I see lots resources being piled in there. Edit for clarity, I mean the current crop of Victorian BSL cases.

Yet it is the problem, all the resources dedicated to reducing the risks of attack are being piled into the BSL dead end. How many millions are being spent on prosecuting family pets of unknown ancestry, not on developing the required education programs and penalty enforcements. I see the fear, I am endeavouring to explain solutions.

And yes I am pushing Inez to make a point, to push him or her to concede BSL is the problem, not the solution. Because public opinion will shape political decisions. Inez, now and in her/his former incarnation as M-Sass, is probably the most vocifererously anti Pit Bull campaigner I have ever encountered. To me, he/she represents the problem we currently have - the call for reactionary BSL regulations that will serve to make the problem worse.

Thank for your response Inez. Understand that BSL is the problem. And people's stance on it matters, because politics will follow public opionin over common sense. Their illegality makes them a status symbol, acquired to enhance image, the kind of home that won't give the dog the training, socialisation, exercise or management the dog requires. Their illegality denies registered responsible breeders the ability to work with these dogs, to show these dogs, to produce pups for the betterment of the breed. Their illegality positively encourages irresponsible breeding. It's possible that there are well bred APBTs in Australia, but I have never met one with a known pedigree here, and I do look out for them. All these ostensible APBTs in Australia are mutts of completely unknown provenance. Few if any have known pedigrees, are these dogs pure or not? Noone can say, most likely not. The messy result of denying registered, responsible breeders the ability to produce well bred dogs. Contrast with, say the Dobe, a breed that once had a terrible rep here. You never hear of Dobes in the news. These are dogs who's original purpose was personal protection, they are plenty powerful enough to inflict serious damage or kill, yet our communities abound with them, and there are no problems. Dobe breeders take a bow. It would appear that the Dobe breeders here really do have their stuff sorted, inevitably there will be some fail breeders as mentioned in this thread, but it'd seem that on the whole the odd fail is absorbed with little or no impact, because overall the temperament of Dobes finding their way into pet homes is obviously good. Wow, look at that, from most maligned breed in the country to model pet in just a few decades. I want that for the Pit Bull. It's not just Dobes either, Bull Terriers had a terrible rep for a long time, model citizens now. Plenty of breeds out there in the same category, any breed of dogs capable of inflicting serious injury, yet never make the news, these breeders can take a bow. I get angry at breeders for the health problems the conformation ring has encouraged, but temperament wise, on the whole, most lines of most (legal) breeds here are great. I want that for the Pit bull. The people that owned those bulldogs that attacked the jogger, would those have passed the vetting process of any of the breeders of dogs here on DOL? I don't think so. They wouldn't have been sold even 1 pup, let alone 3. Those were BYB dogs, no responsible breeder would have sold 3 of these to such incapable fools. No breed is immune to poorly bred BYB or puppymill dogs however, and certainly these can have some terrible issues, both health and temperament wise. Consider that the ONLY source of Pit Bulls in Autralia is BYBs, breeding with no care, no responsiblity, no regulation, and making corresspondingly poor decisions in placing pups. Is it really any wonder we have problems? It seems to me that in the current situation the situation we are now seeing - mauling after mauling - is the inevitable result of BSL.

Inez, are you pro BSL or anti BSL? You are one of the most prolific posters on the subject, yet despite all your noise it's still unclear to me where you stand on the issue. Please respond, I am interested. A simple statement of "Yes, I support BSL" or "no, I don't support BSL" would be more than adequate. I'm only asking 4 or 5 words from you for clrification, not a big ask given your usual volubility on the subject.