Wobbly

I guess this one, like the is an Amstaff an APBT debate varies with individuals. To me, the breed I love is the American Pit Bull Terrier. That's the name of the pedigree dogs descended from the greats of the past. A Pit Bull is a catch all term for anything of the same structure and temperament whose ancestry can't reliably be traced. More importantly and more applicable to us, a Pit Bull is a dog that a council can seize and euthanise simply because it looks a certain way. Mel, you single handedly rehabilitated my opinion on red nose dog owners, wish there were more like you, who just love their dog and nose colour is neither here nor there. We need more like you!

Love this post!!! Fights happen with all breeds, but damage done can vary widely. I'd never let Jarrah play with other dogs, she's shown only polite behaviour toward other dogs for 5 years or more now, she's never damaged another dog, but still, I am only looking at Rally-O for obedience coz it's on leash. I want her leashed around other excited dogs, always, this may not be the case for Bully owners who are more competent trainers than I, but I feel for myself I need to stay well within the bounds of my training limitations, with great power comes great responsibility.

Haha I just watched you again, he's just so cute! XD One of the reasons I think you're so way ahead on me in this is that Flash is good at verbal cues, it seems like your physical movement doesn't override the verbal cues to the same extent as I have with Jarrah. SOmething for me to aspire to here!

Oh wow, Flash is gorgeous!!!! Haha I had to laugh with you there. He's so cute. There is something about the video being on that makes it fall apart isn't there. XD Suspect it may be us - our body language and demeanour adjusting to scrutiny and the dog sensing the difference in us. Only cure for this I think is doing so much videoing we stop being self conscious about it. I can't give any advice, coz I am clueless n00b, but lots of encouragement!!!! Does he know exactly what you're asking from him yet do you think? He seems to have a better grasp on it that Jarrah. I am a firm convert to Denise's idea of film it all, especially the less than perfect stuff, clearly identifying mistakes can be our most helpful tool. I went one further than you, I decided there was no way my carport, where we normally train is going live on the internets till I clean it up, it's all heavy stuff I can't lift though, so not an easy job. That's the first time I ever worked on the balcony, not that I even have pocket hand as a known behaviour to generalise to other locations yet anyhow. XD

Lurchers, what's in a lurcher? Doesn't matter really what the cross is, it's a type rather than a breed.

Yer Jaq the red nose thing would be comical, except its so sad and ridiculous.

Gun dogs, divided into Pointers (GSP, English Pointers etc), Retrievers (labs, godens etc). Lots of breeds and mixes represented here, known collectively as gun dogs (or pointers and retrievers if you want a little more specificity). Setters, spaniels, water dogs, pit bulls.... I'm not getting your point here?

Haha I definitely don't want to do anything that encourage poor criteria setting, it's a really weak point for me at the best of times. Really where I am atm is just on focus. All Jarrah's life I have allowed her to focus on the environment as a primary source of engagament, the point of a walk for us in the past was so she could sniff EVERYthing. Now I've done a backflip in regards to that, the point of an outing is focus on me (of course we will maintain those sniffy walks too because we enjoy them, but sniffy disengagement like that must now be cued, not default. The main point for me right now is to wait for engagement, and reward that with training opportunity. I will not cajole engagement, Jarrah needs to understand working with me - getting the opportunity for treats & tug (and also running and jumping, with me, that's rewardig to her too) is a priviliege contingent on her continued focus. When she loses focus for too long, we stop training, she loses the work and reward opportunity. This is what we've been fdoing in Denise's class and it's been working so well with old known default behaviours (sits, stays, downs etc) I am introducing a bunch of new known and unknown behaviours, the pocket seemed like such a useful and fun kind (it's someone else's homework in the course) of thing I want to add that to the mix, just for fun and variety. It's a good one, I am learning lots about the more common mistakes I tend to make in training. Not getting much done today though, I have a drilling and filling dental appointment today. Ouchies.

Me too! That's why I jumped on this, for something new, we love heeling best of all since it is dynamic and moving. Except I haven't managed to convince Jarrah that we are actually heeling with the pocket hand yet. XD So far with it she just knows I chase her with my hand on her cheek then she gets a reward! But her outs are great now! :D :D :D In the home, food is nearly as good as toys, the way I have brought her up, drive is triggered by location, a mistake I realise now, more derp to me. Ahh OK, i will try that thrown reward! Thanks Ness. Yes, you are so correct, i often don't give Jarrah credit for her smarts, she is completely able to distinguish small variations in body language, and differences in context.

But yeah false peds. Definitely a case of caveat emptor. Those Gotti dogs have ADBA pedigrees, which is almost worse than the fact someone managed to register a cat as an APBT. I will see if I can find the story about the cat and link it, funny, but a very sad state of affairs for the breed.

I look at it this way - you have the pure breds, dogs of known pedigree - the Amstaff and the APBT. Then you have all the BYBs, no pedigree records, you can't possibly know what they are for sure - Pit Bull type, or Pit Bull is a generic description for these dogs of unknown provenance. Are you seriously saying if you were offered a dog from say Tatonka's next breeding (Sorrell dogs), and you knew the ped was genuine you wouldn't take it in a heart beat? I bet Ricey would jump on it no hesitation! Dogs like Chinaman, Honeybunch, Jeep, Eli, Spook, Butcher Boy, Buck, Eli, Red Boy etc... etc... I am sure you know all the more famous sires and dams as well I do, we do tend to be obsessive about our breed history we APBT fans, no need for a list. They were extensively line bred on the proviso gameness tends to be hereditary, so a distinct breed was created from these dogs, to capture that trait and propagate it. These old dogs, with that trait of gameness are the basis for the APBT breed, and it is most certainly a breed. The lines that were based on the old dogs - Garner's dogs, Boudreaux's dogs, the Red Hemphill dogs, Colby dogs, Reid dogs, pick your favourite lines... the list goes on, all those men that linebred their best - they created a breed based upon those dogs. There are differences between these lines, both physically and temperamentally, the red dogs are bigger, the Colby dogs are calmer, the Sorrell dogs are all action... Different lines, differences in temperament and structure (the same can be said of GSDs, Kelpies, lots of breeds), but still one breed - the one breed that emphasised gameness as it's primary trait. Sure there are hung papers, but there's a lot of genuine papers too (very, very few in this country though I think....). The APBTs of modern times, a breed descended from the greats, carrying the genetics for gameness, are incredibly valuable. Gameness is a maladaptive trait, a dog too willing to die does not have the opportunity to pass on his genes, even within APBTs it doesn't crop up with any reliability, since it's fundamentally contrary to the survival of an individual. It's a genetic trait that hasn't been selected for as comprehensively in any other breed that I am aware of, some other terriers perhaps, but those were also selected for breeding for other reasons as well, gameness wasn't the sole determiner for the other terriers. An APBT of genuine good pedigree is about as valuable as it's possible for a dog to be in my eyes, animals carrying this genetic trait of gameness (whether it's expressed or not) there is nothing else like them. Problem in Australia is we don't know what we have, just a bunch of Pit Bull type mutts, no known pedigree, it's anybody's guess whats in these dogs. The BYBs pumping them out don't even know what an APBT is, they think their poorly formed dogs of incorrect temperament and structure are APBTs, because they have a red nose or a big head or whatever. Bet there's lots of Visla in a lot of the red noses hereabouts, it's weird to me how the red dogs are so popular in Australia, what is with that? Stratton thought they were too big, well they're even bigger here now the idiot BYBs have mixed Viszla and even Dogue De Bordeaux in to get that all important money spinning red nose. If there is no pedigree they aren't APBTs, they aren't American Staffordshires, they're Pit Bulls, the catch all term for generic Bull breeds of no known ancestry. Just IMO, feel free to differ. I think there are really no absolutes here - it's like the question of whether an AmStaff is an APBT or not, opinions vary, it's hard to say who's correct on points with no absolutes.

ooh as it happens I am working on that exact issue (sort of). My new training spot is the carport, and up the drive, and just outside the house. All on long leash. So now in those areas, she's tends to auto focus on me, awaiting cues that net rewards. She still loses focus lots, because hey I have conditioned lack of focus over years, but is coming back to eye contact quicker and quicker now. Jake thinking dogs means peanut butter is awesome!!!!!! Yay!!!! Awesome work. :D I haven't broached cats at all to be honest lately, I have been doing other training, but I am pretty sure it will have a positive effect on cat reactivity, since I am learning so much about her, her body languages and responses - studying her with an intensity I never have before I guess. Which is helping me understand her, relative levels of distraction, keeping arousal regulated etc so will hopefull flow on to my responses to her with cats. Hopefully.

I wish she wasn't sound asleep so I could try that now. XD She normally does a really nice attention heel, except physical cues are so much more meaningful to her than verbal and normally my cue is left hand at my side, seemed appropriate when I taught it! I have made the mistake of getting her dependent on hand cues rather than verbal, which was fine for simple life stuff,but now I am teaching tonnes more stuff I am running out of hand cues fast. Definitely need to fade that old hand cue out. The new hand position doesn't mean anything to her as yet, she doesn't have a clue what I am asking for. I am moving way to fast here - I need to learn to gauge how fast to raise criteria - too slow she gets bored, too fast she doesn't have a clue what I am on about. The latter being on display here. But lucky for me she's happy to play along anyhow, knowing there's reward in it, good thing I have my awesome Ninja skills to keep up with her. I'll put your advice into practice in the morning. A new, better start for heeling. Thanks Nekhbet. :D I am not feeding her here, but I probably do need to go back to feeding for position, I have always been a terrible overfeeder of treats, I am learning to scale that back, you'd be horrified at the amount of jackpotting I do, which makes the treats less meaningful for known stuff. I should film her nice heeling with normal hand cue, that does look pretty, and she actually knows what it means. She doesn't have a clue what I am asking for here at all! Ahh Ok I will try this too! When we do this without motion, so far she understands the hand on the outside means rest your cheek in my hand, but I haven't got any duration on that yet, it's a brief touch then she's expecting a reward. XD I need to take it back a step. That's a good one for me to try. Oh that's a nice idea, my problem with that is that hand up high in front of her face is a jump cue (jump and nose poke my hand), which we rather enjoy. I do get a nice prancy eye contact heel, from practicing with the clicker, except it's dependant on that left hand cue, which that I can't do if I am cupping her cheek. So I will start again there with Nekhbet's advice. Mrs Rusty Bucket - The pocket is for teaching pivots (alternative to teaching on a box/phonebook I guess), and also once they start following your hand properly you can move them in if they're going to wide or out if they're crowding, and helps with crabbing, forging etc all stuff that I have going on in a big way in a normal heel. I think Denise's obedience work is specifically for AKC obedience in the US, her dog Lyra does IPO, so I imagine her other dogs do too - perhaps this translates particularly well for those styles of obedience? I am not sure how any of that translates to other obedience trials, but I am looking more towards Rally-o at this point coz I an a n00b, so not overly worried about the finer points.

Me too! Well mine's not really a park, it's an old quarry where all the untrustworthy dogs go, there's not many of us and we know each other's cars, and there's only 1 highly visible entrance. Wow I am blessed. Violence like that - leash rage, road rage etc... Always strikes me as the human equivalent of canine fear aggression - loss of rational control due to a maladaptive panic response.

Ok here is me & Jarrah. I am very new at training (only ever really concentrated on basic life and community skills before) so all comments and criticisms, advice and suggestions are welcome! I do it in motion with tug rather than still with food because its more fun for her that way and we're still really concentrating on focus as our main thing atm. No sound, because this is the first time I ever uploaded to ewechewbs. XD http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHrAy0qfGNc&feature=youtu.be

Naw Powerlegs, it's not like that. Enlarging a Jack Russell or a Fox Terrier won't get you a Bull Breed temperament. Although BYBs being rampant and breeding for blue, or big bones or whatever the hell is in fashion today, who knows what you'll end up with temperament wise anyhow.... Am I right in thinking that 1 of the Amstaffs is available for adoption still? Hopefully it gets a good owner, I know the verdict seems to be that at the moment it wouldn't make a good pet due to the way it's been neglected in it's formative period, but with a dedicated owner you can overcome a bad start like that. I am here to vouch for that! Someone who has determined they are going to give a rescue dog a home will do their best to overcome the dog's history, it can take a lot of dedication and commitment. Helps if they're experienced with dogs I imagine, but even if not, so long as they're willing to seek appropriate help and learn, the outcome is likely to be very good for both dog and owner. Dogs being what they are, living for the most part in the moment, can really thrive in the right environment regardless of history. Fingers crossed the remaining Amstaff gets a dedicated and committed owner. Plenty of rescue Bully breed dogs (and every other breed type) here on DOL to confirm that owners like this are in no short supply.

Here we go, denise with the nice tall Juno And another lady with her tall dog

O dear I am afraid I don't look like Denise at all, I'm sort of hunched over trying to make it easy for Jarrah since she's not quite tall enough, almost tall enough, but not quite. I probably look like Quasimodo if Quasimodo had a dog. :laugh: At this point I'm happy with 3 good steps.

Haha yeah mines not finding it comforting yet, but I figure the more it gets associated with awesome treats the more she'll like it. XD That's brilliant :laugh:

O wow Sheena, that's awesome inforation "D Thankyou. Nice to have a good mix of stuff too, Jarrah loves the novel, much more compelling for her when different types of treat come out. I am learning to not be boring for her in that way now.

Ooh Cleo I don't know! Mines tall enough I don't have to squat! XD I am a complete noob at proper dog training so I am not a good one to ask, but I would probably be looking toward maybe a targeting stick to bridge the gap? You'd miss out on the comfort aspect of physical contact, but you'd perhaps still get the the pivot and the movement in and out?

Very cute XD

She's had chicken necks for dinner all her life! I have actually been wrapping the clicker in gladwrap when I have greasier treats. XD

I have been using "sentient" "biotic plus" for kibble training treats, will look into Black Hawk.

I am using a lot of treats in training at this point. I'm actually starting to not feed her dinner now due to the amount I give her, so quality of treats has become a big issue. What are you using Sheena? Cooked chicken breast? I am interested in all non processed ideas.