Wobbly

Did you ever get Nala to approach it first so Gus can see her response? If he sees Nala being calm and rational in confronting such a bizarre and scary thing it might help him decide it's no problem after all?

Blerk, nvm, just got really excited for you at the prospect of a DDB and so didn't read thread in entirety, but seems my post is null & void. Apologies. Hope everything goes well for you and you get an awesome pup for yourself & pics please when you do!

Seriously, a slap is pointless - it stings for what maybe 10 seconds? Then it's forgotten forever. How is that any kind of recompense for your loss? If the question is "how far would you go" I'd say a slap is relatively speaking, an almost infinitesmal distance compared to how far you really could go. You did nothing but punish yourself with that. If I really wanted revenge I would have taken a very different approach. Revenge isn't my cup of tea, and it's definitely not what I'd do, but just for the sake of a little creative visualisation, I've constructed the following: If I were bent on revenge, and wanted to test how far I could go, I'd be thinking along the following lines: 1) Aim to wrap her tightly up in the legal system, first step would be to goad an admission of culpability for the dog's death in front of witnesses. By the sounds of it, she goes off half cocked on the bragging, so easy enough to achieve this. Now you have a winning case, so she will end up having to pay legal costs for any action you take. I'd be aiming for a big payout, I'd have to research the angle, but I enjoy that kind of research, and I've had occasion to learn I'm particularly good at using the legal system to my advantage, so should be doable. Failing a payout to myself, it'd be very possible to blow legal costs out to the point of her losing everything she had ever worked for, her house, her retirement security. Everything. 2) As for the beating you received at the hands of her sons or whoever, I have no idea why you didn't take that further if you're of the mind that punitive action is good. Depending on the dirt you dig up, and how far you could goad them whilst appearing blameless yourself, you might be able to add up enough cause to deny her and her sons the right to any custody or visitation rights to their children & grandchildren? If you were determined and clever in fact you almost certainly could. "What about the children?" is such an incredibly effective legal angle. How far would you go? there's no end to how far you could go really.... You forfeited your best avenues to decisive punishment for a little slap that means nothing. A calculated, cold response may have taken many years, but would have yielded far sweeter results if that's what you're into. But ultimately, for me neither of these revenge tactics would be satisfactory. Slapping, unless you're a primary school kid is a laughably paltry token response, and taking her house or denying her and her family custody and visitation rights to the grandchildren is bolting the barn door after the horse escaped. The dog is dead, nothing like that does anything for him. How far would you go for your dog... you're going nowhere with that because it's too late to help him. You really should have been a bit smarter to start with. All you could do is save other dogs the same fate in future. Were I in your situation (I wouldn't be) I'd probably be inclined to ensure the child learned to approach dogs better, and furthermore get him into counselling via contacting youth and community services, his school, whatever groups or institution might collaborate. By the sounds of his family he's gonna need some intervention like that to have a hope in life. The best course, from a cursory reading of this mess of woe and stupidity you've embroiled yourself in would be to ensure the grandchildren's generation are given officially documented and overseen professional guidance so they can hopefully develop a little more emotional intelligence, and this cycle of brutal stupidity is not repeated.

I have no advice, other than to reiterate that already given - see a good behaviourist. He or she will give you the best tools to help your dog and you. While I have no advice for you, I do understand exactly what you're going through, my dog was the same when I got her from the pound - probably why she was left there to begin with. Without writing an essay on it (it's a deep, complex subject) in dealing with the problem I think my automatic behavioural responses changed more than my dog's automatic responses did. I was previously quite soft natured and tended toward analysis rather than reaction. Which in a lot of situations is good, compassion and analysis are great qualities to have. But I used it in all situations, as my only response type, and it's simply not appropriate behaviour for some situations. Some circumstances - dealing with a strong willed dog, and also in dealing with people sometimes too, require immediate assertive responses, not slow empathic analysis. Dogs are such simple creatures, the way they force us to respond simply, honestly and most importantly IMMEDIATELY can be a good lesson for those of us who can be too analytical, to slow to respond. My automatic behavioural responses have shifted from a slow introspection toward a stronger immediate response now, with my dog, but also in other areas of my life. It's been a positive change for me - as well as making me a more effective pack leader it's bought better balance to other areas of my life - most notably in human-human interactions that require a fast decisive response. I think what ended up happening for me is that playing the Sergeant Major role with my dog so often, I grew into that role, over time it became real rather than just an act, and then bled over into all of my personal interactions. I suspect that change in me is what's made her a (mostly!) good dog ultimately. Probably an owner who was naturally immediately assertive wouldn't have had issues with her for more than a few days or weeks, where for me it took quite a lot longer. We seek to modify our dog's responses, but I think maybe people don't realise how much of a two way street that really is - to modify the dog's behaviour we are forced to modify our own behaviour and responses quite drastically sometimes. My other belief, which directly stems from all this - apart from a strong willed dog forcing you to become a better pack leader (aka a more immediately, strongly responsive human), is that these strong willed dogs turn out to be the best of them all. These are the dogs that will never become neurotic or fearful, they are more playful, more curious, more driven, more responsive to you - the best of everything you want from a dog. If you do the work with this dog, he will be training you to be a good leader just as much as you are going to be training him to be a good dog. I don't think you'll ever want to give him away after that, it's a powerful bond when you are so deeply changed by a dog. I'm not sure if that makes sense, I hope it does. It's just my understanding of how my relationship with my dog has shaped me, far more than it's shaped her, she's just responding to my behaviour, nothing much really changed in her psyche like it did in mine, only her learnt responses changed. It may not apply to other people but I thought I'd add in case it does make some sense to you or anyone else reading.

I wouldn't have slapped her. Fury makes me cold blooded, not hot blooded. IMO violence is pointless, a simple slap is nowhere near adequate punishment for what she did. You were in the right, she was in the wrong, you had all the leverage you needed to exact as much lasting and permanent punishment as you wanted (via the legal system), but you forfeited all your real power with that slap. I'm sorry for your dog, but you also need to understand that she was protecting her own too. She went about it in the stupidest, cruellest way possible way, but you can understand how a grandmother would want a massive and decisive settlement like that when her grandchildren are threatened, even if they did provoke. There are two irrational, pointlessly violent people in this story - both you and her. Odd thread, probably better suited to off topic since it's not really about dogs, it's about human relations.

I went and watched the training session last Saturday (as per class rules - first class free but owner doesn't bring dog to it). It's a small class - only 8 dogs, I prefer to pay more for this size class. I'm really looking forward to taking Jarrah next Saturday now, it looked very interesting. I learnt 2 new tricks to teach Jarrah already from it - touch my hand and look into my eyes - Jarrah was so happy when I grabbed a bunch of treats and taught her these - she loves learning new stuff (loves having treats shovelled down her throat XD), I felt a bit bad I haven't taught her new stuff like that for so long, she was so excited to learn and learns so quickly (she knew "look" already, she always does it if I have treats, I just hadn't given it a command word before). It'll be really good to have some new material to teach her, I've been slack for a while about that. Honestly i think the main thing that prompted me to find this class was when my Sister in Law told me about her puppy class that brought a cat in one week and a snake in another to teach the pups appropriate reactions, she lives on the other side of the country to me so i can't go there, but it did catalyse my finding of this training school. That's the kind of stuff people don't often get to teach their dogs in a controlled environment. Even I (quite possibly one of the most clueless dog trainers in the entire world) can teach sit, stay, a bunch of silly tricks, recall (I suspect I'm only OK on recall because bully breeds make it easy though, I've heard a lot that dogs like huskies, beagles & some other breeds are a whole different ball game with that one). But anyway, all the stuff you need for a reasonable pet dog is easy enough for owners to get sorted on their own, I guess that's why so many people don't go to training. I had forgotten about the existence of group training the last few years, as a pet owner it doesn't cross your mind - I always think of regular training as something for serious obedience triallers and agility fans. As a pet owner you forget there's fun pet stuff you don't get access to outside of a class environment - my class doesn't do cats (mercifully - I missed out on Jarrah's puppyhood, she's terrible at cats, she acts like they are like hairy, self propelled frisbees) but I'm very interested in the hoops and stuff I saw at our training place - new stuff that looks fun like that is a very good motivator for me to go. I signed up for 10 classes anyway (cheaper per class that way), mostly out of interest - to see what's on offer that I've missed out on by not going. The trainer (it's her own business) seemed very knowledgeable and I liked her a lot on a personal level which is a very big factor for me too. Both my dog and I have quite limited attention spans, but I think this training school may have potential to actually hold our attention for a while? We shall see.

Haha I have actually been a P plate driver for more years than I can count now, at least 10. I'm always in such a hurry to get my license renewed I never have time to sit the test for a full license. I abide by the P plate laws, not simply because they are laws, but because they are eminently sensible protocols, not only for new drivers, but for everyone sharing the road.

That is a completely moronic assertion. Does someone speeding make all car drivers in general look less responsible? You are not only failing to support law reform, you are an active obstacle to it. Civil disobedience, has been and continues to be one of the most effective methods of instigating law reform. Go argue with Martin Luther King Jr, Thomas Jefferson, Thoreau etc... I'll leave you with some of their ideas to ponder.

Hey Sares and Hortfurball, Heheh Jarrah is a clown, she still works the couch into her comedy routines. XD I'm glad you mentioned this, I was thinking I might update the sig since those pics are years old, but if I do, I will make sure to add photos of some of the more interesting yogic contortions she's been practising. Thinking maybe I should change her microchip details to Pretzel cross. "D

Haha we have much the same thing going on here, I have a dog who's maybe 5, people have guessed 6 months old because she's soo grovelly at greetings, she's not silly, she knows how to get the most pats she possibly can. :laugh: People always think she's a boy, she has such a fat little head so I guess she looks boylike to most people. We've got a pink collar, but in these days of metrosexuality that doesn't always help. It's just harmless mistakes, there's no malice intended, in fact the opposite I think - people are engaging in friendly chatter, which is a nice thing. At least that's how I see it.

Just a bit on this comment Boarding Kennels have to meet the requirements to board pit bulls or crosses . If the kennels do not meet the requirements then they legally shouldn't take them. They are bound by all the same requirements as owners are in varying states . We have strict rules we must follow if boarding Pitties & it is often not the easiest of tasks due to the procedure & also relying on owners to follow procedure to O yes, I have a very good boarding kennel locally now, I like them, she has to wear a red collar and be boarded alone ofc, but that's appropriate and I just pay for extra play sessions for her so she gets enough interaction with people, the collar immediately lets staff know to take caution around other dogs (they don't really need to under normal circumstances, she's fine if everything's on leash, but no harm in extra precautions with a dog you don't know IMO). But the ringing around to find this kennel was demoralising to say the least. I understand regulations, that's fine, if they had said something like "Sorry but legally we can't", I would have understood. It was just the incredibly snooty attitude that bothered me. "Oh no, we don't take THOSE dogs here". Like she has leprosy or something. :/

O yes, I missed a few points that are probably salient - when I spoke to the lady who runs the dog training classes on the phone, I was pretty happy with the sound of her operation for a few reasons, these being: I mentioned to her that I use a check collar. She said that her preference was not to use these in class, but it is most important I feel comfortable and fully in control in the class, and so if I always use a check chain, then I should use it for the first lesson at least. I really liked this response, her preference for no check collar suggests a primarily positive approach, but her willingness to allow me to use one in her class shows that she is flexible toward different owners' & dogs' needs and not averse to an appropriate correction when it is required. She was encouraging about us transitioning to a flat collar or another alternative to a check chain, and due to the collaborative approach our conversation suggested she seems to take, I'm very interested to see how we go with that. This was really a clincher part of the conversation for me, the subtext contained all the information I need to see that I can work well with this lady. It's a private training club, spaces are limited and must be prearranged, the classes won't be too big. There will be no volunteers, or chopping and changing of trainers. It is a professional business and run as such. Payment is made per class, the payment structure seems very sensible to me. You pre pay for a given number of classes, not a given period of time, so you don't end up paying for missed classes. Another part of our conversation that appealed to me is her attitude toward my dog's breed. I have had some bad experiences, even from so called "dog lovers", we have been turned away from more than one boarding kennel on account of breed. I told her all indications are that Jarrah is a Pit Bull (although ofc you never really know with a dog from the pound). She told me she had quite a few Pit Bulls through the class in the past and they are good dogs who do very well at training. She also suggested that perhaps I shouldn't go mentioning the Pit Bull word in case of negative reactions, and of course she is right. We discussed breed ambassador-ship and the fact that I don't really have a choice in this, all eyes are upon us, there's nothing I can do about that, she just HAS to be better than most dogs. It's great to see indications that she is familiar with the discrimination we so often face. All in all the entire conversation was great, and I really appreciated her taking the time to have an extended phone conversation with me, she obviously has a lot of time for her clients, even outside of paid classes. I am really looking forward to the classes. A point or two about our 1 and only previous training club experience I should add: The lady who took my class was lovely, and obviously an experienced and capable dog lady, but she was trying to teach me the alpha roll approach, and no doubt that's great for many overly excitable dogs. But not Jarrah. Jarrah thought the alpha roll was the start of quite possibly the best game EVER. It made her even more excited and keen for as much Wrestle Mania as she could possibly get. She loved it, so needless to say it wasn't an effective aversive for us, more like a reward. :laugh: It was a local club and very big. There were far too many other excited dogs around for where we were at, at that time. So many other dogs at close quarters excited her to the point of mania back then. It really wasn't an appropriate environment for us then, although it would probably be fine now.

Poor boy. Hope he is better ASAP. Give him get well belly scratches and chin scratches and ear scratches and a chest scratch from me!

A very timely thread for me to respond to. I've just arranged to attend training, after having been only once in the 4 or so years I've had my dog. What was the reason why you stopped training your dog? There were a few reasons, primarily it was too far away. 1 and a half hours drive in Traffic :/ Also my dog was SO naughty. She was an adolescent, and I hadn't had her long when we went to that class. She was insanely out of control around other dogs, not aggressive, just really, really, really, excitable, I felt it wasn't really fair on anyone else in the class, she got all the attention simply because she was so nutty. The distance and my almost complete lack of control around so many other excitable dogs made it incredibly difficult. I figured I really needed to do some work with her on my own to get her less over-stimulated around other dogs before I could go back to that environment. Do you feel your dog is well trained enough? She is good for my lifestyle. Sits, stays, comes when she's called. She walks on a loose leash, but doesn't really "heel" in the formal sense. She is very food driven, so she knows a lot of pretty silly (but cool) tricks, and she loves doing them. She's good off leash without other dogs around, and luckily we have a great place to exercise where there's no other dogs. She did show signs of emerging dog aggression when I first got her, but we went to a behaviourist (this was over 4 years ago) and got excellent advice - to keep her calm and on leash around other dogs, make her sit if she's getting over excited etc, and so we've stuck by that and she hasn't shown a suggestion of dog aggression since. She is fine off leash in a calm, controlled environment with dogs who we know well, but I wouldn't trust her in an excited, play environment with other dogs, even those we know well. I would suspect that being over-stimulated by other excitable dogs would trigger the dog aggression that seemed to be developing when she was younger. She is a classic "Pit Bull Type" dog, and I think the potential she showed for dog aggression can't be ignored, even after so many years without incident, so I don't let her play with other dogs. On leash she approaches other dogs in a friendly way - they have a nose sniff and a waggle and then I move her on, I'm happy with that. She's generally pretty good, there's always room for improvement though. Did you not get results from previous training attempts? Are you simply too busy? Did you find training boring? Is training too far away/ too often/ too expensive? We gave up after one lesson! Otherwise I'm sure we would have gotten results. It was too far, she was to hyper excited as a newly acquired adolescent and I hadn't learnt to control her sufficiently around other dogs at the time - it certainly wasn't boring, more like too exciting. I'm never too busy or too poor to meet my dog's needs. What would prompt you to start training again or would you not start training again regardless? I am! I finally found one close by, and of course she is good with other dogs now, so she won't be hogging all the trainers attention and making me wish the ground would open up and swallow us. XD Next week I go to a session without Jarrah, to get a feel for the class and see what I have to practice to fit in, that is the training school's policy. The week after that I bring her in too. I don't really have any huge expectations for it. There are a few reasons I'm doing it - she hurt her shoulder a while back, so I am hoping this will be good exercise for her brain since our physical exercise is neccessarily somewhat reduced now. I hope it will be a good environment for her to socialise with other on leash dogs, it's always good to reinforce that. My Sister In law recently got a GSD pup who she is taking to puppy school, apparently at this puppy school they bring in cats, snakes, and all manner of things a puppy might need to learn how to deal with appropriately, it sounded very interesting and so I thought perhaps a training school might have some great stuff like that we've been missing out on. Hopefully we're not too far behind in terms of all the stuff she should know, but she's a quick learner, especially if there's food involved, so it should be OK. I had a long talk with the trainer on the phone the other day, and I really liked the sound of her set up. Edited a lot coz I keep thinking of new stuff to add XD

Greytpets, I do think people SHOULD be dissuaded from keeping multiple large breed rescue dogs whose history is unknown if they don't have proper infrastructure for keeping them separated. In the case of greyhounds, I would think that mostly you do know the history of a dog, so that is a different story, as is a rescue that deals with surrenders from known backgrounds. But in the case of dogs from the pound, usually not a lot is known about their past. If you look at a lot of the successful, reputable rescue organisations (Staffy Rescue springs to mind) who have multiple large breed dogs of unknown history, the dogs ARE kept in dog runs so that their behaviour and temperament can be assessed over a period of time. They can be fed and handled separately etc, hence for these rescue operations that have those facilities dog fights and other situations with the potential for tragedy don't occur. It's all speculation ofc, but in addition to the possibility of redirection from a dog fight, I could see something like this one occurring as a result of one or more of the dogs exhibiting aggressive food possessiveness. We'll never know. But it is very much a case that suggests that rescue operations who deal with a number of large powerful breeds of unknown history should have separate enclosures for those dogs.

All those dogs are rescues, who could know their background, one or more of them may have been abused by humans, may even have been trained to be aggressive to humans with a previous owner, they are the sort of breeds people would choose for that purpose. Certainly rescue dogs often have a history of hardship and that can make them less than stable, trustworthy animals. Very unwise to have so many large powerful dogs of unknown history all together, unrestrained like that. Poor girl.

O i missed the visiting dogs bit, oops. Resource guarding against other dogs is very different to resource guarding with humans, a lot of dogs will guard their precious things against other dogs, but not against people. So I wouldn't worry about the kids there. I actually wouldn't have made the suggestion of rehoming an American Bulldog to just anyone who posted, but since this recommendation is happening under the auspices of Persephone and she's a very wise doglady, I would be confident she'd make the right decision for both owners and dog, and you never know unless you check, it could be the right dog.

Money available vs money available NOW are two very different things. I have money available (if I sell stock, borrow against assets etc) but although it's money that's technically available to me, it's certainly not available NOW. I imagine something like that was probably what was going on. Pet insurance is a fantastic thing. Dogs are more than stoic, some will actively do their utmost to hide pain or injury. In wild dog packs, a severely injured dog is usually killed off by the rest of the pack, lest it hinder the pack's survival chances. So there's an instinct that's driving some dogs to hide pain at all costs. That said there's some real sooky lalas out there too who obviously didn't get that memo. The 2nd day I got my dog she tore her desexing stitches, and went for a full day acting normal till I finally saw blood and raced her to the vets. She was running round all day with a massive open surgical wound It must have been absolutely excruciating for her, and I felt so terrible I wasn't aware of it earlier, but she just hid it so well, and I didn't know her well enough to know her pokerface "tells" then. :/ She's better about not hiding pain now, apparently I've gained some trust, but if she's ever listless I know something really bad is probably going on. If she were off her food at all I would be stopping at nothing to figure out why, because it would take A LOT of pain to make her not eat. But you learnt the hard way I guess, just because a dog doesn't look like it's in pain, it very well might still be in enormous pain. Listlessness and reluctance to eat may be the only real indication you get of it though. Good on you for taking on the dog and paying for his bills, most people would probably opt for euthanasia if confronted with the prospect of a $5000 vet bill. You did a good thing, even if you might have fumbled it a bit at first and the dog may have been in more pain than necessary, at least he got the surgery and will get better now, if he could understand the situation he'd thank you for helping him. It is difficult to find a balance between giving the dog enough medication to not be in agony but not make them feel so pain free they go and exacerbate their injury. My vet actually said those words to me while he was trying to figure out how much pain relief to give my dog when we were there last for a shoulder injury. It's really good to have a good vet that you know you can trust. You definitely need to find one of those by the sound of it. They are out there. Anyway, good on you for helping him, glad to hear he's recovering and it's all going well. Give him a belly scratch from me.

Couldn't help but link these two threads together, this dog is in SA and most certainly would have the macho looking going on, sounds like a lovely dog too. Definitely worth a look. http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/240698-american-bulldog-needing-a-new-home-urgently/

Yep so true, my dog sleeps in her crate, she's not locked in, the door is always open, she just likes to sleep in it. I encourage it because if I'm ever in a situation where she needs to be crated, taking her to live overseas or something (it's an airline crate), the move will be less traumatic because she feels secure and comfortable in the crate.

All of us I'd say. My physio has the dearest little Chi sleeping in the sun in her office. It was one of 6 that the owner decided they didn't want anymore and abandoned. Honestly, the mind boggles. Such a sweet little dog, and so easy to keep - little food, little outing maybe, a spot in the sun and bit of chin scratching appreciated. What chance does an athletic dog that needs 2 or more hours of high intensity exercise every day have if even a dog like that Chi gets dumped. Speaking of which I need to walk my Parkour dog, she's sighing at me. I walk her at an old quarry and I encourage her to negotiate the toughest terrain because that tires her out more so I wont have to play fetch in the afternoon. It's really quite amazing to watch her negotiate a sheer sandstone wall, an leap huge logs, she's like a cat, if a cat were a muscular juggernaut. Although we've actually toned down the intensity this last few weeks - we're both recovering from back injuries. Rewarding dogs to own, but really, really high maintenance. I do think it's better that if a home can't be found for the dog that can provide the exercise and stimulation they need, and it's a big call for your average household to commit to it, then it's better the dog is put down. I would hate to think of Jarrah in a situation where she doesn't get her couple of hours a day running, leaping, climbing, swimming, she absolutely lives for it.

Haha that dog reminds me so much of Jarrah! Someday I think I might have to go change her microchip details to pit bull x panther. Yeah, you can't leave them in the backyard, there is no fencing in existence adequate to the task of containing a Parkour oriented dog. But once you get over the idea you could ever leave them unattended in the backyard, they're good house dogs.

Don't agree at all. It takes a pretty big person to admit they were wrong, and especially to go on record about it as a public figure and in direct defiance of the current public hysteria. It'd be far easier for him to dismiss any evidence that contravenes his previous stance and continue as before. Frankly I'm impressed. It's a brave move, politically and personally, and shows a lot more integrity and consideration of fact than we could possibly have reasonably expected. Shame there's not more of it. Full kudos where it's due.

Well we just went there today for the first time, she wasn't worried at all, trotting out ahead of us like there had never been a problem. No food, no frisbee, no encouragement required. I don't know why the change of mind, but I'm delighted anyway. I can think a few reasons it might be - perhaps before she wasn't properly healed before and was just looking after herself, or maybe she's forgotten or maybe she remembers but 1 bad experience doesn't outweigh years of it being the best place in the world... Who knows what goes on in that fuzzy little brain of hers sometimes? But the important thing is she loves her favourite walk spot again and all's good with the world. Yay!

Goolawah at Crescent Head (near Kempsey) is pretty, right on a great beach and one of the camp spots is pet friendly. Info here: http://www.lands.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/106465/11_GOOLAWAH_state_park.pdf