Stitch

My girl with IBD did exactly the same thing initially. With her pain = shaking legs plus when she feels sick she doesn't want to eat. This is because the gut has become inflamed. IBD first reared its ugly head when I was feeding my lot with VAN and minced chicken frames. Everyone was OK on it except for her and for quite a while I didn't realise what was happening, so I have always felt guilty that I didn't pick it up sooner but I had never had a dog with IBD before. She would vomit every now and then initially, not all the time and I couldn't pick anything that I was doing differently but it was just that she was gradually getting worse. In hindsight I would say the easiest way to tell if it is something you can control would be to only feed say Royal Canin Hypoallergenic dry food ie. just buy a small bag from the vet and see if only feeding that makes the problem go away. You should cut out all treats, bones, chicken frames, dairy etc. if you currently feed them and only feed the RC Hypo. I found with IBD there will be a 'trigger' food, my girl absolutely can't eat beef liver but she is OK with the chicken liver that is in the RC Hypo. food but it is hydrolysed. There are other foods I now know she can't tolerate eg. bone marrow, dairy and oils too as they will set her off. Recently it got so bad she was hospitalised twice and now all she can eat is the RC Hypo. so it is something that can gradually get worse. Of course it may not be IBD with your boy, it may be one of the miriad of things that dogs can get but it is something to bear in mind. Other things it may be is parasites or a gut infection. Perhaps a course of Flagyl might help but remember the Royal Canin Hypoallergenic, we have found it to be the absolute best for dogs with gut problems.

I wonder if the bully sticks are produced in Australia or overseas??? I bought some trial ones today...and they do stink...however if they are a success I will buy them on-line as they are cheaper. Hopefully they won't fuzz up like the kangaroo tendons!!

Which one does your dog prefer?? and have they had any digestive issues consuming either of them??? I have mainly fed piggy ears however I have purchased kangaroo tendons only to find that they got mouldy looking after a few weeks. I bought in bulk and threw them out when I saw that so won't buy that again. The thought of what beef bully actually is doesn't phase me but chews that go whitish or develop a fuzzy look to them do!

I was just reading in other threads about vets who precribe chinese medicine and it seems like many owners really rate it for treating their beloved dogs. Even though I don't have a need for them right at the moment, I was wondering if anyone knows if there are any of those vets in Brisbane....for future reference?

If you really want to cut down on the size and smelly condition of poos then feeding a raw all natural diet is the way to go. Currently I feed most of mine Big Dog BARF and they do fantastically well on it. Dr.Billinghursts BARF is good but not as good as Big Dog IMO. You could also use Vets All Natural mixed with raw meat like minced chicken frames however I found that the quality of the minced chicken frames can vary even when you buy it from a butcher so I stick to the prepared Big Dog BARF and never have a problem. Premium dry dogfoods are OK, but you will always get the 'smelly poo' situation because that is the end result of feeding this type of food. It is what it is!! I sometimes feed Eagle Pack, Royal Canin, Advance or Hills. Eagle Pack has a good reputation however at the moment Advance is pretty good too and also Royal Canin depending on the variety.

Found this link for you: http://www.ehow.com/about_5033527_bilious-vomiting-syndrome-dogs.html It does mention that it is usually found in older dogs so I wonder if it is applicable to your young dog?? What are you feeding? Regarding teeth removal....XRay can determine if there are any retained teeth for future reference but if that isn't a problem then I don't see why you would XRay

I think just a quick AAHHH to get her attention and then offer a toy/distraction in a playful way should do it. I have found it can either be a stress related thing or just a puppy playful thing, no big deal unless it escalates.

Thank you all for your encouragement and the recipes. Early days yet BUT I transferred my girl from Hills Z/d to Royal Canin Hypoallergenic and WOW what a difference. She has stopped shaking with pain and farting and is now doing nice firm, dry poos! Happy Dance!!! I can't believe the difference!!! I always thought that the liver in the Hills was the problem....Royal Canin has chicken liver in it...I am guessing that Hills liver is from a different source. It is soooo wonderful to see this little girl happy, wanting to play, and now pooing twice daily like normal dogs instead on once a day doing blackish soft poos. She is obviously feeling soooo much better!! My criticism of the vets advice was that he was quite happy to keep her on Hills Z/d without trying to see if things could be improved by fine tuning the diet. He was happy to medicate her instead. He too prescribed a Flagyl type antibiotic but now it looks like I won't have to use it unless she relapses. I am sooo happy I have put my plans to try the home cooked diet on hold....hopefully these good times will continue.

He only said that I would have to introduce one source of protein at a time....which is normal....he didn't have any comments about the digestability of a home prepared diet. I have found over the years that vets have a preference for commercial dogfood....I on the other hand have found that my dogs usually do way better on food that isn't as highly processed.

I am talking about a diet of cooked protein source plus cooked veges, rice or pasta not raw unprocessed foods. I now want to avoid feeding the things that are in the Hills/Royal Canin foods like liver (which I know she can't tolerate normally)to try to improve her digestion. Even though the Hills Z/d (and the Royal Canin) is hydrolised the protein molecules which would be shorter because of this process, are still able to upset her as it seems she just can't digest the liver well and the vet agreed. Also things like soy and beet pulp in normal dogfood produce farts for my healthy dogs so I should imagine are going to be worse for a dog with a gut problem. These manufacturers are depending on the hydrolisation process to make the food acceptable to dogs with gut etc. problems but that doesn't mean that they are going to be a perfect fit for all dogs that it is fed to. There are always going to be some dogs that have varying degrees of intolerance to it. We were lucky as the Hills was great to stabilise her, to get her eating again, tolerating food well and putting some weight back on BUT she has hit a point where some fine tuning needs to be done and I think she now needs a more suitable food than the Hills Z/d but as I said we will try the Royal Canin first.

For all those Dolers who followed my previous topic, we went to the Internal Medicine Specialist yesterday. The SBD's (silent but deadly farts) that my girl currently produces had to be addressed....plus the poos are not as formed as they should be indicating that there is still a gut problem going on albiet no where near as bad as it was. The next step along the 'treatment road' is 3 days on Panacur....this to ensure she doesn't have a parasite problem. Then following that a course of Metronidazole (Flagyl)thus eliminating two possible causes for the farts and the loose bowel movements. Vet maintains that dogs on Hills Z/D are able to have normal firm non-smelly bowel movements so my girl still has a problem. After we have worked through all the above treatments I will then change her food to Royal Canin Hyperallergenic diet and see if that helps. I was disappointed to hear that the specialist vet was not at all interested in promoting a natural food diet as I am quite willing to cook for my girl. He did however concede my theory that she may be reacting to the liver in the Z/D and suggested I switch her to Royal Canin Hyperallergenic diet when the treatments are finished. It really annoys me when vets don't rate a natural diet......perhaps I am being harsh and they are erring on the side of caution but many vets tend to have a very condescending attitude to anything that isn't science based. I am certainly intending to try cooking for her again once we have tried all of the above.....only one thing concerns me......What can you add to meat and cooked veges/pasta to give her all the vitamins and minerals she needs for a complete diet on a long term basis?

I have been though this with one of mine so I can totally relate. She had a gut problem and the vets continually told me she was OK. In the end I suggested she be prescribed Zantac as a long shot and it worked!!! Your girls problem may not be that but if the vets can't do any better, it is worth a try. Problems arise when the non-eating becomes an established pattern so then the dog has to overcome a medical problem plus a psychological problem too, so it is a good idea to try to sort it out ASAP. I note that you say your dog doesn't like being in the crate to eat. In your case I suggest you persevere with your crate training for both dogs...a little at a time...making it fun and gradually extending the period of time the dog spends in the crate. For these kind of problem dogs...and they are usually the hyperactive, nervous types...it is a great advantage to helping them eventually relax and then eat normally. I have had some difficult dogs over the years but one thing is certain, they can ALL be crate trained. It just depends on how persistant you are and how consistant you are in training them.

Have you considered feeding the dogs in separate wire crates side by side? I have found this works well in situations such as yours. It gives the skinny dog their own space and prevents the well fed dog from stealing or intimidating the skinny one whilst keeping them close enough together to prevent separation anxiety. Also I have found that small meals frequently is best but you have to give the dogs a while to settle into a routine. It is the ROUTINE of eating that gives you the weight gain. Once they relax into the feeding routine things start to improve but that can take a few weeks to a few months, depending on the dog. It also requires you to feed the same way at the same times every day.

I have had both types of accupunture myself but have not needed accupuncture for my dogs. I can only say for me that the needle accupuncture was much more effective and deeper penetrating than the electro type. Don't know if it works the same way with dogs.

I was talking about the Z/D not the L/D. What is the next stage down from Z/D is that the L/D?

Yes JulesP there is the soy factor which I avoid in normal dry food but there is also liver which is normally a proven problem for us. And yes AussieDog, kangaroo is a strong, gamey meat. I feed rabbit BARF to my other dogs which is always acceptable...poos are small and don't smell much and the dogs love it!

Erny, I note from your other posts that you had the food allergy tests done. When I mentioned this to the vet he said that skin allergy tests can be done and are fairly reliable BUT the food allergy testing is not. He said that clinical tests that were done were 50% right if you followed the test results and 50% if you didn't.....don't know that I have explained that well???......anyway his point was that food allergy testing, I think the only one being the one in USA, were definitely NOT worth the money....but I know when I have an animal that I am caring for that is in real trouble, I would be resorting to that too. At least you have some direction to go in!!! And the other side of the coin is that I am sure that in the preparation of the Hills diets....which normally have alot of corn in them....they would have a % acceptability rating on the corn process for the Z/D if you get what I am saying. They probably couldn't completely get rid of whatever it is in it that Mandela reacts to but in most dogs it is acceptable so they put it in because of its other benefits. Intereting that Mandela couldn't tolerate kangaroo. I have only offered it to my lot when it was sold to me as low fat, it was the prepared Dr.B BARF and it was not well received....they viewed it with suspicion but eventually ate it. It is a very strong meat and there are lots of other meats that they like a whole lot better. I don't think I tried it on my old girl but probably wouldn't now because of that previous experience. Erny, did you ever try Mandela on the I/D? I am wondering if that is our next step? ETA: BTW Erny, I know my girl reacts to liver and Z/D protein is from liver. I am wondering if it is the same as your experience with the corn. ie. the liver is still present even though it is moleculised?

She went home from hospital with the Hills Z/D Hyperallergenic diet in the cans. After the first 7 days I changed her over to the Hills Z/D dry kibble which Hills say is exactly the same as the cans but of course doesn't have water as its first ingredient which is OK now as she is drinking normally. She has tolerated this well except for the farting and the slightly soft poos. The farts have to be experienced to be believed!!! I am currently just giving her 2 pieces of the kibble as a going to bed biscuit. Thanks JulesP for the good idea about the biscuits. I don't know if she has an egg allergy but just guessing I doubt it. I will give it a go!

That's the thing...it may not be an allergic reaction to flaxseed oil, however she only had it 3 times on her evening meal before this last episode started, so it has to be suspected. I will make a booking with the internal medicine specialist vet next week and see what he has to say about her ongoing diet. At least it may give me a direction to head in. Perhaps he has an elimination diet I can follow and maybe he can give me a list of foods to avoid. Poor girl, she doesn't understand why she can't have the nice real food like she did before, and not even a 'going to bed' biscuit!!!

Yes Megan that is what I am thinking. She hasn't had bones of any kind for years now. That brings me back to working out what protein source I use. I am viewing chicken which suspicion at the moment, beef may be OK, lamb may be problematical, fish is not easy to come by and is rather expensive.....what else is there....kangaroo, not sure how that would go???

Yes I noted that after the event...however the flaxseed oil was freshly bought, kept refridgerated, complied with all the guidelines for keeping it in good condition and none of my other dogs had any reaction to it being added to their meals at all and they were having it for way longer than my girl did. I presume it is because she has the prior IBD condition. Subsequently I have tossed the flaxseed oil because my thinking was that if it caused a reaction in a dog that admittedly had a gut problem then it had the propensity to disagree even mildly with a normal dog and am now adding Megaderm to everyone elses meals. I am very reluctant to add oil now of any sort to my old girls diet though. I might add that flaxseed oil came very highly recommended from several people that had been using it for years for their dogs with no ill effects.....I don't know why though when I know now it is such an unstable oil.

Erny, what concerns me is that this dog was on BARF for many years when she was younger as that is what I prefer to feed, so I am definitely sold on the benefits of feeding raw ie small poos, no farts, etc. However, during that time, in my ignorance, I didn't pick up the signs that the IBD was happening to her as I have never had a dog with this problem and none of my others have this problem. She would vomit every now and then and also must have had pains in her stomach as she didn't like to be touched there....but other than that she was the picture of good health and I just put it down to her being the princess that she is. This happened on and off for quite a while with me taking her to the vet and the vet at that time, not picking up that she had IBD. She then started to be ultra sensitive to the liver treats that she and all my others had received for years so after a particularly nasty bout of diahorrea I finally put two and two together and after visiting the vet yet again switched her over onto Hills I/D and then onto Hills Sensitive Stomach. Problem solved, no stomach sensitivity, no vomiting or diahorrea. She was on that for quite a few years. About 6 months ago I decided to cook chicken and rice for her as she started to look skinny and her coat was very dull. She loved it and put on weight and was very happy until I put a teaspoon full of flaxseed oil (good quality refrigerated etc.) in her meal for nights. Thats when she got this last terrible bout of bloody diahorrea, bloody vomiting, she was very sick and I thought I was gong to lose her. The specialist internal med. vet said was IBD. He explained that IBD is really a generic name for a whole list of possible causes....and all I can put it down to that I did differently was the oil. Now it may be that she can tolerate another variety of oil but you can see why I am very reluctant to give her oil again. In fact I am frightened to change her diet at all but I can see (and smell) that the Z/D isn't a perfect fit but then maybe it's as good as it gets???

Thanks Augustine for the recipe. One thing that does concern me is the addition of coconut oil. I know my girl has problems with fat of any kind and I suspect that oil may also be a problem. Not many places in nature that dogs could get oil especially coconut oil.

That would be great Augustine, I would love to see some recipes. I find it difficult too when all my other dogs are getting their 'going to bed' dog biscuit and my poor old girl has to go without as I don't know if she can have a biscuit or not.

Yes I did consider that but when I tried to look at Augustines website, and in particular the recipes, the pages came up with errors multiple times and wouldn't let me scroll down, except for the shop....which wasn't any use as I wasn't going to buy a product I knew nothing about. Can you give me any recipes?