angelsun

I may give it a try, but having to do frozen implant for breeding creates huge problems....I'm not holding out much hope really.

Well still nothing from ASAP and now my bitch is in season, so I won't be able to breed her as I don't have the test results I needed to do it. Thanks ASAP for putting my breeding program back at LEAST six months due to misrepresentation and lack of results

That's the thing....but everyone has a different idea of what 'betterment' means...better for the breed, better for a line within a breed or better for the breeder of the breed? As written to a private email I got about this thread....we are arrogant to beleive that we OWN a line or pedigree. It is not ours to own. From one who's breed was on the thin edge of extinction in the mid fifties, I know all too well what happens when breeders get the attitude that they OWN a pedigree and deny it to everyone else. Why do we breed? To win at shows? To strengthen a breed that has very few in numbers so that our grandchildren can enjoy that breed later in their lives? To guard a pedigree and line for our own....why? Will anyone care in a hundred years who that person was? They will remember a name on a paper of a line that died out when the breeder passed on, because it was never allowed to be used by anyone else....clucking of the tongue and shaking of the head, with comments like "too bad too....would have been nice to have some of that now....the breed needs it" True story.... We breeders are a selfish and arrogant lot, and the sooner we step up to the plate and admit to that, the better our breeds will be a hundred years down the track.

You contradict yourself....you say you won't be dictated to when you use a stud dog, but you feel you can tell those that use your stud, what they are to do?

Get your SIL to read this thread...but also, show her some of the other threads regarding breeding which include diseases that males can get, liability issues that COULD come up. Unfortunately owning an entire male is an open invitation for many to think they will make some quick dollars. As you noted..she is a single mother of one....right there, I see only $$ as motivation.....as for 'cute pups' All pups are cute....but then what? The answer sits waiting in the local pound.

Becks, I agree...this being the meat of this situation....Again, I will stress that I am all for mentoring, but that doesn't mean DICTATING..... Oakway....yup....easy...no ego's involved.

She firstly should check with the breeder of the dog to get their advice on whether the dog is a good representation for the breed. This breed is a dime a dozen...it's unlikely she'll get any interest other than someone with a standard poodle bitch.

How about this question/scenario..... You are a breeder and want to bring in another breed (as many do) because either you are winding down in your first breed or just want to experience something different. You fall in love with the breed of Great Northern Swimming Hounds and approach this breeder after doing some research and finding out that they health test, are big on making sure temperaments are dead on, and microchip and show/trial their GNSH's They are great folks...breed now and then, have lots of space to socialize pups and are fussy on who gets their pups because they want the best for them. You contact this breeder and express interest in getting a pup....give the breeder your history in dogs, which includes breeding and showing multi generations of champion Miniature Longcoated Herding Terriers and tell them that you want to show and trial anything that you might get from a breeder. Lets face it...you are a great home and would promote the kennel of the GNSH's. Your heart is set on this easy care breed and other breeders you have talked to, just don't have all the bits of the puzzle falling into place. But the GNSH breeder drops the bomb saying that because they chose to use Ch. I'm All That N Bag O Chips for the sire of a litter, they can't sell you anything on main register, so you can't show a pup or breed from it. They sympathize with you because they know you bred top quality MLHT's and would love to mentor you in the GNSH's but a contract is a contract. Of the twelve pups born four weeks ago, only one will be allowed to carry the torch for the GNSH breed. The breeder would keep more, but they are only allowed so many dogs according to council regulations, and they can't part with their two young bitches (one of which is the mother of the litter and the other is the first offspring out of her and only 17 months and too young to be bred from) The breeder is torn because there are actually two other really nice pups in the litter. Worthy of being shown and bred from down the track, but a contract is a contract, so they have to be desexed. You hang up the phone, very disappointed as after all your research to find your perfect breed and breeder, you hit a wall and won't be able to pursue it. You may be forced to go to a lesser breeder to fullfill your dream of owning and showing and perhaps breeding GNSH's or just give up and pick another breed. Although the breed names have been changed to protect this innocent, the story is based on truth. BTW...the breeder ended up stopping breeding GNSH's because eventually due to the contract that was signed which also included a clause about not being permitted to breed the offspring to anything produced by a kennel that didn't get along with the kennel of the stud dog owner, suddenly there wasn't much to breed to, due to limited availability of health clear, temperament good pedigree. So it wasn't just one breeder lost...it was two. Just tossing this out for folks to consider.

Guess it's time for me to say how I would or have dealt with this situation. First scenario, only being permitted to have what I keep on the main...won't happen....my girls are half the equation and in many cases, other breeders have been waiting patiently for what THEY have to offer...they want HER half of the pedigree and are not as concerned about the sires side. This would mean that they would not be permitted to have a pup, simply because the sire has conditions on being used..to me, it means that the owner of the stud dog believes that ONLY the use of the stud dog matters, and what the bitch brings to the table, isn't important. I agree with the backdoor concern, however I continually ask myself...what right do I have to restrict the future of my breed, for the sake of my ego? Yes there are bitches I have turned down, simply because they (in my opinion) won't add anything to the future of my breed...yes there are people I have turned down because their ethics are shady and I don't want to associate myself or my dogs/prefix with them..however....I have not ever told anyone that has my lines that they may not sell to a certain individual or allow their stud dogs with my pedigree behind them, to be used on person X or Y. I do not have that right as a breeder or a mentor. I choose to think that if Breeder X or Y is that determined to get my pedigree (and who ever said it was mine anyway when you think about it?) and is willing to go to great lengths to do so...good for them...I take it as a compliment that they feel that what I have been doing in breeding is good enough to warrant someone else wanting a bit of it. As for adding the name..I agree, there is no way I would do it, and snorted to be honest when that bit was mentioned...I think my exact words were "you've got to be $%^&*ng kidding!" In my opinion, it was the sign of someone wanting glory and not willing to pay their dues. One thing I forgot to add in the original post, was stud owners determining where puppies are sold...I know that there are a lot out there that feel they have the right to dictate this....perhaps in some cases, it is warranted but should be not dictated, but more guided and mentored to help the breeder from making a mistake if they are new and don't know some of the problem people out there that have not been upfront or honest....I had one stud owner tell me this clause, after having at that point about 20 years breeding....needless to say, I told them to get stuffed...my litter, my owners...end of subject. We have a small gene pool...and one would think that as a result, breeders would be more willing to share and work together, however this isn't the case.....and now, I feel we don't have as small a gene pool as some would like others to believe....I've been handed a number of different scenarios regarding using stud dogs and as the owner of a number of stud dogs, am constantly amazed by what some owners believe is their right. But hey...if you get what you want....go for it....I'll find another dog....I have always included the stud owner, to be sure they know numbers, gender and if any pups do well in trials or shows...they get photos and information....but I know, the stud dog is only half the picture.....and my girls gave a lot (or more in some cases).

Another topic got me thinking.....I've known of a stud dog owner that when she permits her male to be mated to a bitch, she includes a contract that states, that ONLY puppies kept by the owner of that bitch being mated, can be registered to be shown. All others MUST be sold on non breeding registrations or desexed prior to going to their new homes. There is another owner of a stud dog that wants the name of the stud dog incorporated into ALL offspring resulting from that mating. This gets thinking...first off....how much do you as a stud dog owner, feel you have the right to insist as part of the agreement to mate anothers bitch? and secondly, how much would you as the owner of the bitch, be willing to agree to, in order to mate your bitch to a certain stud dog?

I've done as early as 21 days but had an amazing vet...still though, we had to look hard and long....I'd leave it til thirty days and give it another go.....you should be fairly certain by then.

Got my numbers as well. Hopefully I'll make it as it's still a bit up in the air at the moment, but going to give it a real go to get there!

Is there anyone that will accept digital exrays for reading? We have two animals due to be hip/elbow scored and I"m not prepared to use old fashioned film....beside, my vet ONLY uses digital exrays.

No numbers here either....hoping to make it but depends on a lot of things, working around ONE vehicle is the biggie!!

Try showing a scent hound in a ring littered with bait and then you would be entitled to a good whinge...however, we managed to train the short legged ones to ignore anything on the ground, focus on their task....it's no different than training boys to ignore girls...and then there is always oil of peppermint or vicks if that won't work!

In actual fact, very little has changed from when the ability to freeze successfully sperm came to being. Two main methods are used, both with good success over the years. The suspension liquids have changed slightly but still remain mostly the same as used THIRTY years ago. One method freezes slowly, the other in less than 3 seconds. What we have seen as a HUGE improvement is the ability to read with great accuracy, progesterone levels and therefore ensure a better chance of having a successful litter. Frozen is hinged on perfect timing, and 12 hours can make the difference between puppies and a miss. We have also seen huge advancements in the ability to protect chilled semen and keep it viable for many days compared to 12 hours in the beginning, to an average of 36 which is pretty normal, and now up to 14 days, making overseas shipping of chilled a reality, where a mere 5 years ago, it couldn't happen due to time constraints. I've been involved on one level or another of the frozen semen issue for many many years, and was fortunate to learn a lot of information from the head of ICSB who has been working in frozen for almost fifty years now, and made major headway when bringing back almost extinct species due to his work.

United Pinscher Club of Victoria offered their first Neuter classes back in October, and will be offering them again at this May's show. I'll be at the Tumba weekend with my girl as well as the three Riverina shows and of course the Pinscher show. Still have a long way to go for a title, but am looking forward to showing her as she really loves to strut her stuff...gee..maybe I'll get Tony to take her in instead!

With ASAP, I was originally told results would be 5-6 weeks. Upon questioning in the new year (tests submitted November 16th) I was told that there were 180 tests to be run when all was sorted out in the lab and that was the following week, and my test was in there. This was the first full week of January. January 25th I was told that the test would be run, free of charge due to the delay. I was told no specific date but that each test can take 10 weeks to validate (for the first time) and that they are attempting to get 120 tests up and running. I was then told that the company had contacted people who perhaps had a deadline for testing to search another company as these tests would be not completed for 3-4 weeks. Now it makes no sense to offer any service when you can't really provide it. Had they simply come forward and said that there could be a three month wait, fine....be honest...but all materials they send out in their glossy folder, do not give any indications of this and ONLY when questioned about the delay, was I told what was going on. No, I will not be dealing with this company any further, regardless of their pricing and will be sending swabs off to another company shortly.

What people need to remember is that when semen is frozen, any degradation stops right there. Storage becomes the issue and as long as it remains in the correct container and temperature, there really is no difference between the same quality/motility of twenty year semen as there would be with semen a year old.

There is nothing wrong with calling him a rescue...many times the word is implied to mean that the dog has come from a bad situation, however it shouldn't be that way. He is in fact a rescue as if he did not come to you, he would have gone to the pound. Who bred him, doesn't matter, other than you can give more insight to someone interested, when it comes to the back ground of the dog.

I attempt to keep records of the few times I have allowed one of my boys to be used, however I have three occasions where once used and paperwork signed, I was never told how many pups were born, gender or anything else for that matter. On one occasion the only other time I heard from the breeder of the litter was when there was a problem and she tried to blame the stud dog! Other peoples litters and their plans for the breed in the future play no part in my breeding program on the whole. Those that breed outside my co ownerships or my breeding program seldom come back to my 'nest'. I don't allow much stud work anyway, so it's really not a major part of my time with the dogs.

THAT'S why we get the looks lately!! (owners of a trailer, currently without ANY identification as to who we are!) Haven't gotten around to getting it done yet.....

I've never given it a thought....if the girls are in season at ANY stage, I keep them clear of everyone else and their set up, toilet them in a place I don't think many are using (not the middle of an unused ring!) and when waiting ringside, let anyone close know she's in season. I also let the judge know when they are doing teeth/head so they take the appropriate care when going to the rear end. My girls often show wonderfully when in season and YES you can train a male to ignore it....some boys I've used a season to my advantage as they perk up and get very attentive, but don't go stupid. As for the open cervix debate and infections....I keep asking for studies on this, but none are ever forthcoming(wives tales).....and for those that believe they have less risk of infection by staying home, they are living in a rose coloured world I"m afraid. Unless you also quarantine yourself for the time, it's not going to happen. As long as the rules allow us to show bitches at any stage of their heat cycle, I will. I do what I beleive to be good manners and don't give it another thought....and this is the reason when I have done all this, and have my bitch waiting ringside, AWAY from anyone/dogs, I was more than pissed off when a dog was released from a crate only to come flying over and attempt to rape her with the owners unaware or uncaring that it was happening (they all stood ten feet away at most from the event) Because the bitch was on the way out, she still was attractive to an inexperienced dog and there was never a risk because we managed the situation quickly, however I have heard that I have been blamed for showing her in the first place (how did the dog get out of the crate....I don't remember opening it!) and yet I have seen those that complain, show bitches in season....guess it's ok for them, but not for me....gotta love dog shows and the people attached!

More word coming in saying we will be good to go January 1st 2012....it's NOT official at this point, so no big happy dances YET.....let me keep on this and will let you all know when I hear more.

Yes and of course on MAIN register as well as the owner must be the person doing the litter. No, the breeding has nothing to do with MY vision for the breed nor would I demand that it be incorporated into my current breeding program. The breeder of the bitch has a vision and a program, it's not my right to state to them that they can not use one of my boys because it doesn't fit with MY plans down the road, nor would I have the right to state to them that their bitch isn't my TYPE so therefore wouldn't benefit from the use of one of my boys. It's not a case of whether the bitch is pleasing to my eye. It's a case of whether her short comings will or might be removed by using one of my boys. I must look at the whole package, but when breeding and trying to improve, you have to zero in on specifics and calculate if the use of stud dog A or B will help. As for my approval, it's not that simple...it's all of these questions, not just what the bitch looks like...don't forget, there are health checks to do and of course temperament must come into things as well. No, however the breeder must have shown a level of committment to the breed, and often that IS showing....if the bitch has been shown and falls short of a title...not a problem..if the bitch has never been shown, the breeder doesn't want to show her or her offspring, than YES it matter and I will not agree to just producing puppies. As mentioned above, there are more items I consider, I also ask the owner of the bitch what they expect from the use of MY boy..remember..as stud owner, I can turn a bitch down....it's also important to listen to the owner of the bitch and appreciate their side as to why they contacted me in the first place. Everyone has a different interpretation of their breed and path they are wanting to go. By listening to the bitches owner, often the stud dog owner gets insite into an aspect that they had not considered before.