bj2circeleb

This can be verified by contacting any guide dog program throughout the whole country. Once the period of puppy walking is over and they are returned to the training centres for formal training, they are housed in yards during the day with 4 other dogs, and in a kennel with one other dog at night. They are regualarly walked by volunteers and play with other people besides the trainer. They have no hesitation in learning to switch on and off. Guide dogs who fail, do not enter the training program, for health or temperament reasons. Temperament includes being scared of loud noises, not comfortable enough around people or other animals, etc. Some are simply too hyper and these are usually passed on to be sniffer dogs. 5 of the dogs who were sniffer dogs at the Sydney Olympics at been bred and raised by Guide Dogs Victoria and part of their puppy walking program. Custom dogs during the first 12 months, must spend time inside the family home each day to help with socialisation, and I know someone at my local dog park who has them for the first 12 months, and all of their dogs have passed and gone on to work, even though they are at dog parks every single day during the first 12 months of their lives. They also have always had at least 3 customs puppies at the same time and all were housed in the backyard together and played together all the time. They also had their own pet dog as well. I have said before that I would love for someone to give me a link to somewhere on the web where I can find out more about neutralisation, and/or a book I could go to for further information.

bj, I can tell you that this is most certainly NOT the case. Each dog is kennelled separately and most police dogs may live with their handlers. The only time they are out and exercised is when they are training or working. These are strictly working dogs, not pet or even assistance dogs. I am not sure of the source of your information, but I will tell you this is completely incorrect. Guide and assistance dogs maybe, but not a police dog! Some police dogs are extremely dog aggressive....watch out other poochies! Just for the record, I don't neutralise dogs and I don't see the value in a neutralised dog for a general companion pet or even a sporting dog, however the process is there and is used by those who thoroughly understand how it works. When done properly, the dog is still a dog and has just as much (if not more) fun than an overly socialised dog who is continously being told off for rushing people, jumping up and generally being out of control. I personally know two federal K9 sniffer dog handlers and their dogs while in individual kennels overnight are in yards with other dogs during the day, and on their days off they are walked by kennel staff, and at any time they are not working or in their own individual kennels they are in yards with other dogs. Talk to the federal police K9 unit to verify all of this. I also know that this is exactly how customs dogs live and have had contact with some of the custom dog trainers. I know people who have puppy walked german shepard police dogs who they were aiming to become their attack dogs and they were to be socialised to all other people and animals. They had extensive time playing with other dogs and being patted and played with by a variety of different people. They have no intention of making such dogs disinterested in other dogs. I also knew two years ago one of the police dog trainers, and I was told that these dogs are regularly handled by other people and have regular contact with other dogs. Things may have changed since then, but it was the case then. It may be different once they are trained, but this was not the impression I got. If I am to believe what you say my dog as an assistance dog and my friends guide dog both spend their whole lives being told off for rushing at people, jumping up and generally being out of control. I have never personally seen an out of control gudie dog acting in this way and I would love to know where this idea comes from. Believe it or not it is actually possible for dogs to enjoy playing with other dogs, being around other people and yet still be the most obedient dogs around, and I would think that guide dogs are a good example of this. The only reason any of you can give for neutralisation is that without it dogs are out of control, do not listen to anything you say are alwasy distracted, and jump up on people and run a mack. Yet guide dogs are the best example of a well behaved dog and they are specifically not trained this way. If you can give me one inch of truth as to why my dog should be neutralised I would love to know it, but to date all any of you have said is that I know nothing and every guide dog, not to mention assistance dog on the planet is the most out of control dog around and never ever listens, jumps up on everybody they see, rushes at people, etc. I can't say I have ever seen a guide dog do this and I am not aware of anyone else who has ever seen it either. I am open for someone giving me a reason as to why I should deny my dog interaction with other dogs and people and what positives it could possibly create, but you seem to be unable to provide any. If I am not fully aware as you claim of what nuetralisiation really is then please give me a link to somewhere where I can find something to explain it to me. Guide dogs and many other working dogs are proof of what dogs can do and how well they can be behaved, while still having time around other people and dogs. Why is it that all those who advocate neutralisation do not take this into account. You see neutralisation as the only process of getting a dog to behave themselves and this has been demonstrated by many of your posts. Tony said that without it they would go to a dog or person instead of herding sheep, and yet all the working lifestock handlers I know have their dogs playing with other dogs whenever they are not working, and yet never ever have this problem. Kelpie-i says that without neutalisaion all dogs spend their whole lifes being told off becasue they constantly rush at people, jump up and are out of control. Yet, as I have said guide dogs are not neutralised and I have never seen them do this. Please give me soem solid reason as to why dogs should be neutralised and the benefits of it, because the best examples of well trained dogs that I know of are working dogs of all vareities and I do not know of any of them who are neutralised and guide dogs are not distracted and are not out of control. Someone has to ask where you get your ideas from.

Tony what you are domenstrating here is that you have no idea of how to really train dogs. As I have stated in previous posts, I have an assistance dog who ignores dog without any issue or command when working. If I drop something, I do not have to ask her to pick it up, she comes and does it, even if she is in the middle of playing with another dog. Guide dogs do the same. Police and Customs dogs all live in kennels and spend their days, when not working in yards with other dodgs, and yet when I have come across them in my travels with my assistance dog, neither my dog nor their dogs have even glanced at each other. I never ever command my dog to leave other dogs, she does not need it. I also know people who have dogs who work livestock and they regularly play with other dogs and have time off for just that. But, when it is time to work, they work because they love their work. How is it that all of these dogs are able to do these amazing jobs and yet still play and interact with other dogs and people and yet dogs who are in the show ring and obedience ring need to be neutralised to other dogs and not want to be near them???? Any working dog has a work ethic and no reputable program would ever place a dog into work if they did not love what they did, even when millions of other things are going on around them. These dogs do not need to be neutralised becasue they are work driven, and they see their work as a higher source of importance to them than being with people or other dogs, yet when the work is done they like most dogs who are given an option would chose to spend time not just with one owner, but with other dogs and other people as well. Look at the any guide dog you see working. When the harness comes off they behave like the avearge pet and play with other pets in the family and the dogs of family friends and the like. They are patted and played with by all members of the family, visitors, etc and never work while the handler is at work are doted on by all other work mates. Do these dogs then try to get to every dog they see or every person they see while walking through a shopping centre. Even if people wistle at my dog, come and pat her, grap at her, hug her, etc she ignores them if she is working. She has walked for 4 blocks with a dogs nose stuck up her arse and never once did she lose foucs or did I need to issue any command at all. Put simply dogs are very very capeable of enjoying the company of other dogs and people and yet still perform as needed when the time arises and they need to ignore them. If you can't train a dog to like other things ahead of dogs and people without denying them access to these things then you simply do not know how to train dogs. What you and others who advocate neutralisation deomonstrate is the belief that dogs who have regular and ongoing contact with other dogs, and who enjoy being with other dogs and people are simply not capeable of focusing on anything else if and when these things are around. Dogs are social animals and given a choice they will chose to live with a large group of people, to only allow them contact with one, and to neutralise their feelings about all other living creatures is not understanding the basic social needs of dogs, who are not dogs, but are still living and breathing creatures. If dogs never wanted to have contact with other people, with the exception of one chosen person, then why do people even need to neutralise them to anything at all. Dogs are not specifically socailised to other people and dogs, they are just given an opportunity to meet with them on their own terms, and yet in the case of neutralisation, you actually have to go through a whole process to ensure that the dog does not see these things as positive, even though they are born believing that they are positive otherwise they would not seek them out. I have never said that people who neutralise are wrong, what I have said is that the reasons that have been given for it are that like that given by tony above and is the belief that dogs are not capeable of enjoying the contact of other dogs and people and working or focusing on what the handler wants them to do as well. What I have clearly shown is that this is simly not the case and any working dog can clearly demonstrate that. I just cannot see a reason to do such a thing, when it is simply not necessary to train a dog. What is wrong with a dog enjoying the company of other dogs and people? This is a great link. It is against neutralisation, but gives detailed examples of why it is simply not necessary as I have also tried to do. My contact with people who advocate such things is that they have simply been unable to train a dog to focus on anything else without doing it. Rather than learn how to train dogs in better and more effective ways they resort to this as it is easy and simple to implement. http://flyingdogpress.com/hostage.html

I have an assistance dog and I work in an office with a guide dog. Both of our dogs play together during the day. How is it that they have been neutralised to dogs. They have pets and belly rubs from other staff and I cannot see how that makes her any less want to be with me. The second I drop something before I even ask her to pick it up, she has done so. The guide dog does not have to be called if the blind person wants to go somewhere. The dog senes it, immediatley stops playing and is by the desk ready for work. Our dogs love their jobs ahead of all other things in life, but that does not mean that they are not able to interact with otther people and dogs at appropriate times. Our dogs are not patted while they are working and they will not interact with the public at such times. Both of our dogs know that harness or vest on means you ignore the other dog, but they also ignore everything else anyway. Why? Becasue they need to be able to foucs on the task at hand. Buses have signs up near the driver asking you not to talk to them while they are driving. If someone came up and gave me a hug now while I was typing this I would stop, and/or I would at least slow down and be very distracted. When in public open places my dog already has enough to cope with without having to deal with people patting her, etc. And a guide dog has the job of keeping a blind person safe and cannot do that while being patted and/or playing. But just because the dog is focused when working does not mean that they are neutralised to other people or animals. I do not know of any guide dog or assistance dog program that would place a dog under such conditions and none of them are trained in such a way. If they were trained in such a way they would never be able to effectively transfer the leadership from the puppy raiser to the trainer and then to their disabled handler. My dog is not neutral to other dogs and people when working any more than a guide dog is. She is just so focused on the job at hand, like a dog lure coursing or whatever, that they are unable to focus on anything else! Police and customs dogs live in kennels with other dogs and are handled by kennel staff, with the exception of the times that they are working. How are these dogs neutralised to other dogs and people??? Just like I appreciate having a number of people in my life, I feel my dog deserves the same respect. As a living being she has a right to spend some time around her own species, and she has a right to chose to spend time around other people. I am not so self centred as to think that I am the only thing that should ever matter to my dog. I also have to consider what would happen if I got hit by a car and killed or whatever. There have been cases of guide dog living through such accidents and the hanlder dying. Should such dogs be put to sleep just because the handler has gone. I think not, but if my dog was not capeable of bonding to other people this would have to happen. You do not raise children by never allowing them to ever be near another child or adult so why do it with dogs. The simlpe reality is that I am human and I cannot hope to possibly meet all of my dogs wishes and needs, even if I could wish that I could. The idea behind neutralisation is that dogs are not going to see the hanlder as a leader if they do allow them to have access to other dogs and people. This is simply not true, and any well trained dog proves this. effective leadership comes from providing for the dog and for making the difficult decisons in life, it does not come from denying the dog contact with other people and dogs. Yes, given a choice I will always be number 1 in my dogs life, but that does not mean that when I am doing something else she does not have a right to have contact with other people and dogs, and that their will not be times when I am ill or injured and unable to look after her when she will be happy to be with other people. To neutralise a dog you do not allow it contact with other people and dogs in the first few months of life. This in effect creates a situation akin to the stokholm syndrome when the dog gives up and no longer tries to ever be near another person or dog.

What you refer to as neutralisation is akin to the stockholm syndrome. If the only way you can find for your dog to work or do anything for you is to take all other enjoyable things out of their lives then I can only say that it is incredilby sad. Police dogs, guide dogs for the blind and assistance dogs all have time off, play with other dogs, interact with other people, play with toys on their own, etc and yet they all manage to do incredible work and to place their handlers at number 1, and would never blink and eyelid when working. If you cannot allow your dog to have a full and meaningful life while still seeing you as number 1, then you need to learn how to train dogs!! Why do people continue to feel that the only way a dog can see you as number 1 is to deprive them of all other enjoyment in life. There is no reason for this sort of behaviour and I struggle to see how such things can be seen as humane. I suggest you read this article and then explain why what she says is not true and why it is that guide dogs of all dogs who are able to safely guide a totally blind person across a busy road, is capeable of playing with other dogs, interacting with other people and playing with toys when they are not working, and yet at the site of their harnesses they jump up and ran to have to put on with great enthusiasm. It is possible for dogs to love working, to see their hanlder as number 1 and the most important thing in life and yet still play with other dogs, interact with other people and play with toys. http://flyingdogpress.com/hostage.html

Some dogs are more dog orientated than other dogs and it properly has a lot to do with their early upbringing along with genetics, etc. But, that does not mean that all dogs cannot be trained to be reliable offlead. The biggest mistake I find people make with recalls is only calling the dog at the park or whatever to go home. No dog is going to come, no matter how many treats you have if it means going home if they want to stay!! You need to ensure that you call them most of the time for good things, so coming to you means good things happen, and if you do call them at a park or elsewhere that you do so at least 10 times before you take them home!! The hardest part of training and the part which most people do not get to is proofing. All dogs and people are distracted by some things. By the sounds of things the most distracting thing for your dog is other dogs. This means that you need to focus on doing really simple obedience exercises like sit, with a dog about 20 metres away, and then slowly move forward until she can still listen to your commands with the other dogs next to her. When you attempt to take her off lead you need to do so, with you right next to her and with no other distractions around. She needs to learn to function with both distractions and with distance and with offead, and while initially they need to be done seperately they can then be combined, but when they are combined you need to move back to a very easy level, and then only increase one of them at a time. My dog will ignore other dogs on leash, but happily plays with them at parks, the beach and the like. She has a 110% reliable recall, and in that I mean that if she is running full speed after a ball and I call her she will immediately turn around and come back. If she is eating, even her food she will drop it and come, and if she is playing with other dogs, even chewing on each other, chasing each other, etc she will come the second I call her. Some people have the strange idea that if they let their dogs play with other dogs, or even with other people their dog will not listen to them, etc. This is akin to the stockholm sydrome and if people's only way to train a dog is to neglect its social needs I find this really sad. Yes, to a degree i do control who my dog plays with, but my dog sees me as number 1, not becuse I force it or don't allow her to do anything else, but because of the benevolent leadership I provide. I let her play and have fun with other people and dogs and while I do like to chose who she plays with at parks, this is largely based on who I feel the owners are and what the dogs are like. On another issue, many dogs find being on lead around offlead dogs incredilby stressful and dogs should always be allowed to meet other dogs in equal footing. Until you are happy to have your dog off lead, I would tend to stay away from other offlead dogs as it is only going to make things worse for her. Taking her to obedince classes so she can learn to function around other dogs, even if she is already well behaved, will only help her. One of the main reasons of these classes is to teach dogs to function around other dogs. The dog will also be socalised to other dogs and will learn to better read their signals. While dogs are born knowing to a degree how to speak dog, they are really born knowing how to speak their own language, ie. Labrador, Jack Russell, German Shepard, etc and they need to spend time around other dogs to learn their similar and yet slightly different languages. Off lead is best but any time is better than none. You may also want to consider agility or some other fun classes so she sees you as fun. While obedience clubs are cheap, they are very focused on competition obedience and you may prefer to find classes designed for pet dogs, or even some trainer who can work with you individualy for a while. http://flyingdogpress.com/hostage.html

One thing I find strange is that it makes it illegal to microchip a dog under 8 weeks of age. Most responsible breeders have the pups microchiped at the same time as the first vaccination is given at 6 weeks of age. This is going to mean that breeders have who by the law will not be able to sell or even give away a dog which is not microchipped, will have to take the dogs back to the vet at 8 weeks of age to be microchipped, which will make it more costly and time consuming for the breeders and/or it will mean that pups will not be vaccinated until 8 weeks of age which will mean they will not be able to start puppy preschool until at least 10 weeks and will not be able to recieve the 10 week vaccination until 12 weeks as they are given about 4 weeks apart. I wonder if this has really been thought through properly and what the ideas around the 8 weeks was.