MarkS

Hi Tess. It's not that I don't like clicker training. Its just that I don't agree with the "Totally Positive Reinforcement" philosophy that is taught in clicker training. I also tend to agree, as Steve (K9 Force) pointed out earlier in this Thread, that he uses voice. I also don't see why you need to use a clicker as a marker..voice does just fine. But overall the philosophy of marking acceptable behaviour is not what I have issue with, its the socalled totally positive training philosophy. Yes it works on 'some' dogs for sure, but as an overall blanket training system, it has been proven (in my opinion) that it is not suitable, and we all need to be aware of that.. Now I think we should just get back on topic as BellasPerson has asked us too If anybody wants to start a new post on the pros and cons of different training methods/systems.. I'll surely join in. Cheers everyone Mark

Thanks snoozie I am heading out now. I will look at your PM tonight and get back to you. Mark

The best advice anyone can give you here is get an experienced trainer/behaviourist in ASAP! You really do need to get on top of this, and honestly in my opinion no amount or advice here is going to really help. You need someone that can come to you and demonstrate some techniques on behaviour modification. But please do not give up on your pup... Remember he is acting on instinct, and the environment you are placing him in. The behaviour management is more about how you relate to your dog, than what you dog is doing wrong. Cheers Mark

For people having major problems walking their dog on lead. I find there are a few reasons for this 1. The owners are commencing the walk with the dog in an assertive state of mind. Walking your dog correctly starts before you even place the lead on your dog. You need to reinforce a calm state before even placing the lead on your dog. Once the lead is on the dog, you need to teach him/her to wait. If it means standing their for 10 mins until your dog relaxes and shows a calm submissive state, then thats what you must do. When you get to your gate/door to walk out to commence your walk, you need to make your dog 'wait' again until again he/she dislays correct state of mind and body language. Remember it's all about YOU being the assertive one, not your dog. 90% of dog owners that I have been to their homes for lead walking problems this is the main issue. The owners are in to much of a hurry to go for the walk, so what are they indicating to the dog? 2. Dogs that are dictating the walk are 'usually 'dictating in other areas of the home. 3. If all this fails - I recommend attentiveness training. We need to train the dog to be attentive towards the owner. We do this by taking the dog to a local park, where there are minimal distractions. We cut out street walking for a 3 to 4 weeks. We place the dog on a 2 to 3 mtre lead. Whilst in the park you make the dog sit beside you before stepping off. When you step off with your left foot, you immediately do an about turn to your right (if your dog is on your left), and walk in the opposite direction, giving your dog at least 2 mteres of lead. Your dog prediciting you will walk straight ahead will dart off in front of you. By turning you are not going where the dog wants to go. Once you turn, you walk at a brisk pace, whether the dog wants to follow or not. Eventually he will. Do not look at your dog, just keep walking. Eventually your dog will stop resisting, and most probably come up to you then walk ahead again. As soon as your dog goes to walk past you, you turn in the opposite direction again, without warning the dog. When you get to the end of the lead, keep the same pace going. Do not stop when you feel tension on the lead, this is very important, keep the pace going. You repeat this over and over until your dog eventually calms down and starts focusing on you. If your dog wants to go to the left, you quickly spin to the right and walk in the opposite direction. Always go in the opposite direction your dog wants to go. I promise you if you do this attentiveness training correctly your dog will very quickly learn to focus on you and walk with you, allowing you to lead. Most people fail because they rush back to street walking way to early. In the begining stages of this while your dog is resisting I do not speak to the dog or make eye contact with the dog. Walk in an assertive manner, we need to project leadership to the dog. In this early stage I do not use any praise. I am just telling my dog to follow me because I am the leader and for no other reason. We are not teaching the dog the heel exercise here, but to be attentive to the owner. Your dog, if you maintain this training correctly, will eventually be attentive towards you, and follow your every movement. I never expect a dog to walk at the heel when going for long walks. All I expect is the dog to be attentive towards me, and understands that I lead the walk. Once you read in your dog he is being attentive to you, and is walking in a calm submissive state, then yes you can praise your dog for his current behaviour and state of mind. But also praise your dog calmly. Never praise if your dog is displaying assertive body language. Most dogs can be trained on a flat collar, but remember to have it tight enough so as not to slip over the head. You can also use martingales and fur saver chain locked so as not to slip tight. I DO NOT recommend a halti (or similar collar) for this training! The above is only a very short guide and is not a detailed guide to attentiveness training. But if you study the aim of this training you should be able to adapt it correctly. As you progress you also include distractions. When your dog is focused on a distraction, you always turn and walk in the oposite direction, and walk away from the distraction until your dog refocuses back on you and displays a calm state again, then you can turn and walk towards the distraction again, as soon as your dog shows interest in the distraction again spin around and walk in the opposite direction in an assertive manner. Attentiveness training if done correctly works on ALL dogs. Just do not rush back into street walking until your dog is fully attentive to you. Then when returning to street walking make sure you follow the same routine as layed out in section 1 of this post. Many owners wonder why their dog responds so well to the trainer, usually much better than for the owner. Remember your dog has no past with the trainer, so has no memories to bring up on what he can or can't do. So a trainer is able to very quickly condition a dog to behave for him/her. Many get frustrated when they see their dog working so well for the trainer, then plays up on the owner. This is normal. We need to replace past memories with newer fresh ones, on what you require from your dog. So getting the same results a trainer gets from your dog can take a little longer to achieve. But as long as you are consistent, and project the right attitude and body language to your dog you should see pretty fast results. I am sorry I can't write a more detailed discription here. But if anyone wants more info just pm me. Cheers Mark

Great to see you are having such fantastic results BellasPerson. Yes e-collars when used correctly can speed up training tenfold! Keep up the good work. PS: No argument here

Hi Rachelle, You have a right to your opinion, just like everyone else that uses this forum. What I am against is blatant personal attacks against someone that voices an opinion. You don't have to agree with her opinion, thats not my objection. My objection is personal attacks or condescending remarks against someone for voicing an opinion. That to me is very immature.. Helen has a right to say 'resort'. You and many others may not like that word, but at least she never attacked anyone. What is so evil about that word?I am happy you see the use of the e-collar as such a wonderful tool, and I agree with you. If someone posted on here it only took me 5 mins with a prong collar and didn't need to resort to an e-collar...nothing would be said.. I am sure. But because someone chooses to use clicker training, condescending remarks were made. I myself am not a fan of clicker training for obedience, but I don't put down someone for making that choice. I choose to educate on why I believe it's not a good training method for all dogs. I do not condem those that choose to use that method. If a method works for a person, I am happy for them. If it doesn't work for them or their dog, I hope with all my heart they seek out an alternative method. May I ask why you take Helen's remark as a personal attack on you, for using an e-collar? Hasn't she a right to her opinion..right or wrong in others eyes?

Hi Rom I don't believe Cesar should be looked at as a person that isn't big on positive reinforcement/rewards. He is, but only when appropriate, and when its beneficial for the dog, and not for the owner. As Cesar states in just about every episode "Discipline always comes before affection". Remember, whenever we give the dog a positive, ie; praise, affection, food, etc; we are actually reinforcing the dogs current state of mind. Never reward the dog for an insecure state of mind, wait till the dog has adjusted and then reinforce a confident state of mind. When I am modifying a dogs behaviour, I don't immediately start showing the dog affection or praise, I wait till his state of mind is 'in balance'. In Cesars shows you are usually seeing the immediate after affects of the modification, not when the dog has adjusted totally or in a correct state of mind to be rewarded.

From your post it sounds like he is getting overly excited, and can't control himself. The worst thing you can do is go mad at him, this will only confuse your pup, and make things worse. You need to totally ignore your pup when in an excited state. No touch, eye contact or voice, especially when he first comes in, or when people enter the place he is. Wait till his excitement has died down and he is more relaxed. Try not to get your pup overly excited for a while. Stay calm and relaxed with him. He should grow out of it.

You make good points Rusky.. But I honestly don't totally agree. Have I ever placed a dog under some form of stress to modify a behaviour..yes most definately! Dogs overcome stress far faster then we do, if we show correct behaviour ourselves. I would much rather a dog go through some stress than spend weeks or months trying to modify an aggressive insecure dog in the household. Why is stress such a bad thing? Life is stress, we all need stress to survive. Our body needs stress for our immune system to strengthen. They have done studies on puppies that were raised in such a controlled environment that the puppies experienced absolutely no stress. Another group of pups were exposed to varying levels of stress. The first group had much weaker immune system than the second group. The first group were far less confident than the second group. Just as humans, dogs need to learn to deal with stress as well. The biggest issue is that many many dogs in society are living a life of continuous un-natural stress. You know why? Because so many owners are wrapping their dogs in cottonwool, and comforting their dogs when stressed. Not only are they reinforcing the stressful behaviour in the dog, but they are not allowing a dog to learn to deal with stress correctly. But people that tend to mother their dogs when stressed, are 'usually' owners that allow their dog to control the household. So when the dog is placed in a position to be you could say 'challenged', the dog is placed under stress, because in these families these dogs have NEVER been challenged. So yes modifying the insecure leaders behaviour is going to cause some form of stress in the dog. A dog that is challenged in a dog pack is placed under stress, but this is not bad. An insecure (leader) dog is a HIGHLY stressed dog, way beyond what is intended or natural to the dog. Just because it doesn't show all the signs you stated in your post doesn't mean the dog isn't overly stressed. If I can control the amount of stress this dog is going through, and end up with a less stressful dog, then the amount of stress I place the dog under to modify the behaviour is far better than the stress it is currently under by being an insecure leader, and having to live life in this manner. I believe many read to much into stress and believe stress is bad. Stress is needed. Our bodies are stressed every moment we are alive. Just being alive in the world creates varying levels of stress, even in dogs. Of cause stress is also caused by abusive training and behaviour modification methods, or just abusive people in general.. but we are not talking about this type of stress. This is where a good behaviourist needs to totally understand what he/she is doing and where they need to be really able to read the stress levels in the dog, and train/modify accordingly. So I much prefer to place the dog under an appropriate amount of stress if needed so this dog doesn't have to live its life any longer in an overly stressed state. Not sure I explained myself very well here.. been a long day.. I am sure this is a very contentous subject.. and there are varying points of view... It's a very interesting subject.

Good point Erny I too say to my clients, "This good". As many clients look at the body language of their dog and say "he looks so scared" or "he looks so sad". I show them that the dog is not scared or sad, the dog is now adjusting to its new position within the pack. The dog is displaying more subdued body language, and the best we can do now for the dog is show confident leadership. Feeling sorry for your dog is not an emotion you should be projecting to your dog, calm assertiveness is what your dog seeks, he/she seeks natural leadership. Your dog needs to adjust, and if you project the emotion of feeling sorry for him, you will confuse your dog, and will go right back to controlling the family. I am speaking here of course, of a dog that was ruling the household. What I call the "insecure leader", that had become aggressive toward family members, and or visitors. I find the dogs adjust very quickly, many owners are much slower at adjusting to this new relationship. As Cesar so rightly says "Dogs are amazing creatures, they live in the moment" A trait we can ALL learn from our dogs. :D

You know.. I can't believe the crap that comes out in these forums at times. One person states she is glad she didn't have to resort to an e-collar, and had fast success with a clicker.. Why then were smart remarks given back. I see it as her stating a personal choice and it worked for her.. but to then turn that against her with a smart ass comment is very 'unprofessional'. A person should be congratulated if a method they used worked for them..whether we agree with the method or not. We all make choices in life. If you don't agree with them thats fine. But to blatantly put someone down for voicing an opinion or choice is in my opinion why so many refuse to go to forums. I for one do not use clicker training. However if I knew I would get the result I wanted from using that method, over using an e-collar I would. I do use the e-collar when I feel it apropriate, and find it a marvolous tool for refining off lead work, avoidance training (ie; snake proofing, etc). But to turn it into a public personal attack is wrong! My 2 cents worth!

Kavik.. Why do you consider a dog that is submissive toward its leader as unhappy? Do you call a dog in a pack that is submissive to higher ranking dogs as 'unhappy'? Sure if I want my dog to work in the trial ring, etc.. then yes I keep him in drive to maintain that sharp focus, and the quick responses. That alert 'socalled' happy state. However when I want control in the home, I do not want a dog that is continually being assertive and over active.. I want a 'calm submissive' state of mind. I don't keep my dog in drive for a calm submissive state in the home. My dog switches into drive when I initiate it. Or if he switches into drive, I should be able to extinguish or flatten the drive, when I want a calm submissive state. For example I can build my dog up into a high level of drive when playing with him. however I can also calm him in an instant when I dictate the game is over. That doesn't make him an unhappy dog, it shows he is respectful of my leadership. Show me a dog that in the home is continually in high drive, and I will show you a dog that is generally out of control and disrespectful of leadership.......

I agree Cosmolo But I have lost count of the number of dog owners I've had to steer away from the correction chain, due to not using them correctly, no matter how much instruction is given. I am sugesting they are not for everyone, just as they are not for every dog. I have seen way to many obedience clubs that allow owners to continuelly use correction chains incorrectly. So stating I agree with him 100% may have been taken the wrong way. I meant in sugesting that the tool insn't abusives..its application can be.

Well she is very attractive..so she'll definately get many male owners training with her!! So I am sure Hollywood love her!! Isn't it ashame that looks come before ability or knowledge How many websites do you go to that state "New and inovative training methods", or "never before seen training methods"! Makes me laugh so much!! Seems they all forget, they are ALL just variations on already established training methods used for years. But the emotive advertising usually works! Or recognised as the BEST dog trainer.. Who recognised this, and how did they come to this conclusion?

I like his shows, and agree with many of his philosophies and application for behaviour management. What I do have issue with is people trying to copy him or even judge him after watching him modify a dogs behaviour in 15 mins. Many forget that many of his methods take hours to days to achieve, and we are only seeing a very edited version of his techniques. In many instances we are not seeing the full process or the stages he used to achieve the modification. I saw one episode of a dog that had an overly compulsive attraction to rocks. In 15 mins (on his show) he had cured this dog of this obsessive compulsive behaviour. In the end you saw Cesaer throwing rocks near the dog, and the dog was displaying avoidance behaviour to the rocks. It appears that in this 15 mins, that having this dog running with his pack cured the problem. I am 100% certain he used avoidance training with this dog using an e-collar or similar. So we should never take his methods on face value. I do respect this guy, and enjoy watching his shows.

Never heard of him.. But agree with this quote 100%! Always remembering though.. It's not the equipment that is abusive, it's the application. Which I think he is trying to stress in that quote.

Before trying an anti-bark collar. Firstly understand why your dog is barking. If the barking is stress related..then NO anti-bark collar is suitable. We should work on whats triggering the stress. To many are now using these collars on dogs that show seperation anxiety/stress, and not correctly dealing with the problem. It's so much easier to place a collar on the dog than address the real situation. This is not being fair on the dog. I do agree with their use, but only after the reason behind the barking has been properly assessed, and you are sure its not stress related barking. Also working on whats triggering the behaviour should be the first course of action, anti-bark collars should be a last option. As to which collar is best.. I agree the 'static pulse' has the hightest success rate, next would be the 'cold spray'.. the rest should be thrown in the bin.

This in part is pasted from the C4S forum. As I am not sure when you will get back there to read it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I still haven't forgotten... and am doing my best to have my submission into you way before the due date. I can't get out of my head that if I write a submission on how I believe these collars are a very safe and humane training tool, that I will just sound like another dog trainer pushing an agenda. I know that your main reason for submissions is to show you have the numbers to support your claims, and so any submission writen by a professional must account for something. I could give many many examples of where these collars were responsible for helping owners control their dogs. But I can't help thinking that 'they' have heard it all before. I would rather focus the attention on the Government giving scientific evidence to support their claims. How can they ban something with no direct evidence to support their claims, but fear tactics by uneducated people? It's the same example as when Innotek took RSPCA to court for using unfounded statements against e-collars. The courts judgement was for Innotek because they supplied all the scientific evidence to support their claims. RSPCA could not produce one expert to support their claims. The court awarded Innotek $100,000.00 in damages. So in all reality then how can a government ban such equipment? Has anyone that you know of asked the minister responsible to produce the scientific evidence to support his claims? As to fight against an injustice you need to be able to disprove thier evidence, if they have any. I am sure they have NO scientific evidence to support their redicules claims. The ministers claims are all based on emotion and not scientific facts. So still beating my head on the best way for ME to offer a submission that the Minister will take seriously.

Hi MissMaddy I feel to properly assess a situation and why its happening we need a much broarder picture than the information you have provided. How long are your walks and how often? Is she a 'high drive/energy' dog? Is she ever locked in her run when you are at home? If so how often and for how long? When you go to let her out of the run, does she bark when she sees or hears you coming? How big is her run? Does she have access to inside the house when she wants it, ie a doggy door? You state she barks at sounds when you are home, but stops when you say quiet. Does she run to a window, or if has access to outside, run outside when she hears a sound and barks? If she doesn't have access to inside when she wants it, does she ever bark, whimper or scratch at the door to come inside? How much time per day when you are home does she spend with you? When she is inside does she follow you everywhere? Does she patrol the fenceline when outside? Does she bark at other dogs or people when you go for walks? Her barking - do the neighbours say its high pitched, or more a protective deeper bark?

Hi Eza Sure feel free to have your friend contact me. I am one that believes anyone is entitled to own a protection trained dog. As long as this person is responsible, capable of handling such a dog, and is willing to put the work into the dog to maintain the training. I personally will not train protection dogs for just anyone. Secondly, a properly trained pp dog is not a danger, if trained in the correct hands and in the correct manner, and is maintained by a responsible person. Also I am very particular as to who I will train dogs for, and the type of dogs. Cheers everyone.

Yes I would also be a little concerned about the bonding issue. During this period I would be seperating them as much as you can and spend lots of time with each pup individually, and of course also together. Also you want them to get used to being apart so you don't end up with seperation issues latter. SBT's can end up being overly anxious dogs, and seperation anxiety can be a big issue at times, between them the owner and/or the other dog in the household. Bitches can tend to be a little more aggressive towards each other, especially when older. I am suprised you weren't advised to take one of each sex. But every situation is different, and you may not have any aggression isues with them. Rough play isn't bad, and puppies need to do this to develop their social skills. However keep an eye on them incase it goes overboard. If the fighting becomes too intense (many owners get too concerned and may missinterpret when play is becoming overly aggressive, as many tend to see their pups through human eyes and values), then I would intervene. Start setting early rules, that overly aggressive behaviour will not be tolerated. Your major issue is that you will not always be there to confront these aggression issues 'if' they happen. So consistency is going to be a bit of an issue here. This may help sort out overly aggressive behaviour between the pups, but later on in life things 'may' change. Keep a close eye on them. Remember, what is MOST important here is establishing yourself as packleader. You don't want either pup growing up believing it controls the house, if you do, then I am sorry to say you may probably end up with problems in regards to leadeship issues. Start setting early rules for your pups. I would be setting bounderies and limitations now. Also have a professional come around and assess the pups for you, a good trainer/behaviourist will be able to assess your pups and let you know if there will be any issues, and also how to deal with them in the correct way before they develop. Issues tend to arise if both dogs have a lower fightdrive threshold, once a dog switches into fight, then you have major problems. Advice really shouldn't be given without actually having your pups assessed, as usually owners don't see the issues as they really are, especially if they are judging each situation from a human perspective. Putting human values tends to cloud our assessment and judgement of what is actually happening. So if you are not sure..Then call a professional to come out and help guide you.

Hi anita What is ethical is different in many people. What is important is that whatever training method we use does not psychologically damage your dog, but enhances your relationship with your dog. I have seen more psychologically damaged dogs grow up due to no training and no setting of limits and bounderies, than dogs that have been trained by whatever method. Abusive training or abusive attitude towards a dog is due to people that either expect to much from their dog, or will not maintain consistency with their dog. A training method is not abusive, only its application can be abusive if used incorrectly. NEVER BLAME THE DOG! So many people lose patience with their dog, blaming their dog for doing something wrong instead of looking at what they themselves must change in their relationship with their dog to modify the dogs behaviour. People resort to anger when a dog is not performing as the dogs owner expects. I have lost count of the people that don't understand that their dogs are not 'mind readers'. If we all commenced consistent rules with our young puppies as soon as we got them, and imprinted proper social behaviour at this crucial period in the dogs life, many of these 'harsh' methods would never be required. Teaching a puppy simple social skills at a young age can go a long way to avoiding contacting a trainer that must use aversive methods to now modify an assertive dogs unruley behaviour. Such simple things can make life so much easier for your young puppy and the owner if we just maintained consistency. How many times have I heard, "Oh he is just a puppy". Crap, he is a social pack animal that is currently at his peak in learning acceptable social skills. Young puppies are like sponges, and by starting this early we avoid having to use harsh methods later to now modify imprinted unwanted behaviour. I for one believe in imprinting in young puppies how to submit naturally when trying to be assertive. To me this is one of the most imortant behaviours/skills we can teach a young puppy within a family. There are many ways of doing this, but whats important is that any assertive behaviour should be at a level the young puppy understands and can handle without overly stressing a puppy. One method I use is always claiming my space. I never allow any puppy/dog to claim 'my' space, even a young puppy. My puppy learns to approach me in a socially acceptable manner, and that is always seeing me as claiming the space. I teach my puppy at a young age to lay on his side and accept me holding him there in a relaxed manner. If my puppy is tense I do not let him up until he relaxes his body language, then I gently stroke him and reward him with calm pleasing voice inflection. When holding my puppy down I do not use any harsh sounds, I just stay very calm and relaxed. This way my puppy picks up on my energy, and relaxes too. I teach my puppy from the moment I get him that to be entitled to his food, he must first see it as mine. I train a puppy to accept this without using a lead. It doesn't matter how much food drive a puppy has, you can very easily teach a puppy without a lead to hold off going to his bowl, calming down and maintaining eye contact with you before given permission to move toward his bowl. Controlling the feeding is controlling resources, and immensely helps establish in your puppy where he fits in with you. I NEVER allow my puppy to charge up to someone and demand attention. I believe you NEVER allow a young puppy to do what you wouldn't allow an adult do to do. So when I am with my puppy, he NEVER gets rewarded for running away from me, and demanding attention from another. My puppy only goes forward when I dictate, and only when my puppy is in the correct state of mind, and is displaying calm body language. I live by the philosophy that discipline ALWAYS comes before affection or as some say "nothing in life is for free". Always remember "Whenever your dog receives a positive, you are actually rewarding his current state of mind, not necessarilly the action" For example, If I have my dog sitting beside me, and even though sitting beside me, he is however displaying tense body language and an intense stare at the person or dog he wants to move forward to, if I realsease him at that moment I am not rewarding for sitting beside me and waiting, I am actually reinforcing his current state of mind. He learns if he stays assertive long enough I will give in to him with a reward. I make him stay there until he gives into it and relaxes, even if its just for a few moments, and makes eye contact with me. I watch his body language very carefully, when I see him relax, I reward with a free. I also make sure that whoever is around when my puppy comes over, I let them know when its ok to pay attention to the puppy. I again watch my puppies body language, and let the person know when it is ok to pet him. I also never allow others to correct my puppy, that is my job to set the rules. If my puppy is becoming overly assertive to someone, I remove my pup from the situation. There are so many rules you can start teaching your puppy from day one, and believe me, your life will be so much better for it. Remember you have your puppy for many many years. Spending the first 3 months establishing rules and bounderies wil help ensure your dog remains with you for the rest of his lfe, and is a well conditioned pet and not a pest. Now in regards how far is to far in training.... Any harsh correction is probably going to far..it usually means we haven't set the ground rules early in our puppies life. However I would then rather use the method required to set rules in an older dog, but always explaining to the owner that they have created the dog they have now, not the dog! I also believe that if a method is going to take months to achieve a desired result, then in all reality we are not being fair on the dog or owner. Unwanted behaviour needs to be redirected quickly. I see so many that use methods that take weeks or months to modify the behaviour, eventually give in to their dogs behaviour, and the dog usually ends up at the pound. I see this a lot in aggression or for overly assertive behaviour. To many animal shelters react to quickly to overly assertive or aggressive dogs and put them in the "NO HOPE CLASS', and end up with an appointment to see God. I believe from experience at least 90+% of dog aggression and overly assertive behaviour can be modified.

Hmmmm... love to Erny.. but not sure my partner would agree, she can be a little domineering in that department and I definitely let her claim that space. I know where I fit into the pack in that situation... lol Merry Christmas to you Erny.. I look foward to many enlightening conversations!

Kelpie-i ME go to the shops today..are you out of your mind!! Merry Christmas everyone!

Thanks for your kind words BellasPerson. Yes new to the forum, but not to dogs I have never really be one interested in forums.. I have been to toooo many that just end up being a "No I am right, you are wrong". Typed words can be taken the wrong way when trying to discuss things, and then the whole thread ends up being personal attacks. But what I have seen here so far..all looks pretty good, so may hang around abit. I tend to be a bit "out there" to some people in regards to training and behaviour. But I use what works for me. I am more on instinctive forms of training. Mainly based on body language, projecting the right attitude, pack structure, drives, etc. I also tend to ramble a bit at times...but hey if it makes for interesting reading....