MarkS

And ALL K9's condescending remarks stay? Hmmm... tell me who runs this board?

Thats Ok haven ....As long as you are happy thats all that matters. I had ago at K9 because I am sick of him being so condescending to ppl on here... This is a place for healty debate and discussions..

I will not be back to this forum. Troy sent me a warning..and removed my posts but not "Force". It just shows me the immaturity of this site, that someone can be so condescending to people he doesn't agree with, and march around here like he owns the place. ENJOY!

submission sent today Good luck Judi

Yes I'd be very interested in any new dates. I have seen Ivan in action, and would very much be interested in attending any workshop or seminar he held. Pls keep us informed.

If you definitely want your dog to ignore cats.. SEEK one-on-one advice from a behaviourist first! It maybe possible to extinguish this dogs prey drive for cats by using avoidance training methods. Most dogs by using avoidance training will adapt. I use avoidance training methods for snakes, dogs that chase livestock, and cats. So it can work, but it takes commitment. Please don't test your dog with the cat... there is a big chance you will regret it.

Hi Erny I don't dispute anything you have said. And I agree that if it is learnt behaviour, we could be reinforcing the lesson. It's like a dog that quickly snatches some food from another dog then runs off. The dog has learnt to move quickly or be attacked. So when the dog moves forward to take the food, it is placing itself under stress, and it is also reinforcing this stressed state by being 'rewarded' for getting away safely with food. I do agree every situation presents itself in a different light. I have lost count of the number of methods I have used to help modify fear behaviour. One of the biggest instigators and reinforces of fear based dogs is the owners own emotional state and leadership abilities. I have 2 couples that attend my group socialisation class with fear based aggressive dogs, on both of those I firstly focused on the owners state of mind and body language, not the dog. These 2 couples both showed high levels of insecurity when people came towards them and their dog, this in turn triggered the aggressive response. As the owners began to become more confident and relaxed being around other dogs and people, the dogs confidence also increased. All these dogs needed was some confident and assertive leadership. So yes all cases are different I am willing to concede that suggesting the use of food could be going about this situation wrongly, and you can't know unless you were there to observe the dog. I however also believe there is no harm in trying and see what type of response you get from the dog. A couple of sessions rewarding a dog that is coming forward of its own free will, isn't really going to make the situation worse, it just may not improve. If there is no improvement we can then move on to alternative methods. Make it simple first..sometimes the most simplist methods produce the most amazing results. This dog remember became confident around Jen.. I'd be interested to know how she got this dogs confidence up enough to trust her? As there is her answer.

I agree Erny, that timing of any positive is extremely important. I am not suggesting it's not. However I feel in regards to this type of positive, the positive is coming from a person that the dog perceives as a threat. The owner is not giving the positive. If the dog is holding back and refuses to go anywhere near the person with the positive, then no it will not work. As the dog would be too stressed to accept the reward if we tried to make it. Remember we are changing the mindset of the dog. If for example you have a dog that is fearful of other dogs (not fear aggression). Do you not socialise it with dogs that are well socialised, and calm in their behaviour (you pick the right dogs)? This then tells the fearful dog, that this other dog is not a threat. If you are then 100% consistent as to the type of dogs it socialises with for awhile, slowly you condition the dog not to build up its stress levels. The fearful dog is slowly conditioned to socialise in a stress free way. Natural socialisation. I see nothing wrong with rewarding a dog with slight untrustworthiness towards strangers, as long as it is the stranger that does it, and that stranger behaves and acts in the correct manner.. calm, relaxed and non assertive. And that the dog willingly comes forward for the reward. The dog must WANTcome forward. If we do this enough we condition the dog to be able to read a humans body language. And as long as the dogs owner informs visitors how to correctly interact with the dog, then this fearful/stress state should disappear in many cases. But time and consistency is so important. If the dog was displaying fear aggression, sure I would not be considering either advice to the unexperienced. But Jen has not suggested any fear aggression whatsoever. Also in the 1st method, I am not suggesting pushing a dog back to force it to take a treat. The dog must want to come forward of it's own free will......

This should tell you something Jen. There is hope for her. Always remember dogs live in the moment. If her condition isn't genetic or a chemical imbalance of the brain, etc (which I doubt very much). Then I see no reason why this dog cannot be accepting to others as she has to you. I deal with a lot of dogs with these issues, and I believe in more than 90 % of cases there can be vast amount of improvement with patience, dedication and commitment. Dogs are very good at adapting to their environment if we understand them and allow them to work through it correctly. I don't agree that a dogs 'temperament' has anyhing to do with issues of not trusting. It's pack related and is due to negative social interaction, and as I said earlier dogs can adapt if we go about the modification correctly. Sure she may never be 100%, but what is my concern is that her stress levels may need to be reduced. If we don't lower these levels then we are not being fair on her. No dog should be kept in a high level of stress, everytime we have visitors. Dog's do adapt to their environment...trust me.

deelee.. this method of having her release will not be viewed as tug-of-war. You are not trying to pull it out of her mouth, you are making her release her grip. BIG difference. You need to be assertive.

Lack of early socialisation or negative socialisation is very difficult one at times. Most important thing to remember, whenever the dog is showing ANY signs of fear or insecurity, NEVER try and calm or mother the dog. This just reinforces the current state of mind. Depending on your dog there are in my opinion a couple of possible ways of helping. 1: Have people come to your house and supply them with treats. Don't feed your dog before hand, if she is food motivated she may eventually come up for food. The owners must totally ignore the dog, the visitors do all the positives. When people are offering food they must not be presenting dominant body language or intense eye contact. 2: THIS METHOD SHOULD REALLY ONLY BE DONE UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF AN EXPERIENCED BEHAVIOURIST: Sometimes flooding is the best method. Granted this will place the dog under a lot of stress. But understand, if your dog is fearful, then she is already under extreme stress. We must teach/condition her to deal with her own stress by not running off. You need to have her on lead so the the situation can be controlled. Choose the people that you have do this carefully. They must be very calm, relaxed but assertive. Place her on the lead and flat collar have someone take the lead and just walk around, ignoring her. If she stresses to much, then have the person make her sit beside him/her on lead, and just be calm with her. No petting, or eye contact while she is stressed. This forces her to deal with her stress, and eventually she must give in to it. Patience is number one here. No matter how stressed she gets in this situation we must work her through it until she gives in to the stress and begins to relax. If we stop while still stressed, then we are making the problem worse, and reinforcing the stress levels. Even if she is shaking and looks totally fearful, you can't stop, you must have her work through it. The person she is with MUST STAY CALM and project calm positive energy. The dog will feed off the energy being projected by this person. If you must sit there with a stressed dog for 30 mins, then do so, eventually most dogs will exhaust themselves and give in to it and lay down and relax. IT IS SO IMPORTANT THAT WE DO NOT LET THE DOG GO WHILE SHOWING ANY SIGNS OF STRESS! The person can then pet the dog once it has released all its stress and relaxed. I know in some eyes this seems cruel making a dog stressed to learn to deal with every day situations but it does work, and in my opinion more beneficial for the dog. We are not only conditioning the dog that there is no need to be fearful of people, but more importantly we are teaching a dog to release stress. Dogs that run away, from people are reinforcing their own beliefs about people, and also are dogs that have not learnt to deal with stress correctly when young. To many people are not allowing young puppies to deal with their own stress. Owners tend to mother a scared or frieghtened puppy, instead of ignoring the pup while in this state, and therefore reinforcing the stress/fear. All puppies must be placed under varying levels of stress while growing up. They need to learn on their own terms how to inwardly deal with stress. SOCIALISE, SOCIALISE, SOCIALISE!

Yes for dogs so obsessive of the ball or trying to dominate the game, I prefer to use the long lead, and reel the dog in. Remember while reeling the dog in use heaps of praise and motivation. Once the dog is infront of you, I place my thumb and first finger over and around the snout, press between her jaw, while giving the command "leave". Once the dog lets go, then you can reward with treat, and/or re-throw the ball. Another way is when she refuses to come near you, just lay on the ground and ignore her. No eye contact or voice. If she is running off because of attention seeking habits or a sense of controlling you (this is learnt behaviour), then I feel she will try and work out other ways of getting your attention and or she will very quickly learn that she can't control your responses. When she comes up to you, try not to grab her, just ignore until she drops the ball. Or place a juicey treat on the ground right in front of you to encourage her to drop the ball. When she has dropped the ball, then praise with voice. No voice or eye contact until she has willingly dropped the ball. This maybe a slower process..but may eventually work once she understands she can't control your responses.

I have no doubt that Rottylover01 has tried his damndest to try and fix his dog behavioural problems. And I congratulate him for that. What concerns me, is that are ALL the trainers he has been to wrong? Are they all coming to pretty close to the same opinion in regards to the dogs behaviour? Everyone is saying to Rottielover1 to get a second opinion... ummm ..how many second opinions has he had so far? Has anyone considered that this case is a mismatch between owner and dog. I remember one thread Rottylover01 said that Gary Jackson wanted to buy his Rotty... That already tells me a lot about this dog and its nature. Are we looking at a rank dominant dog (alpha) that Rottylover1 really doesn't have the experience or maybe confidence to establish packleadership with this dog? Does this dog really need to go to a more experienced handler or trainer? Sometimes when we love something or someone so much, we don't want to give up on them, when in most cases its what we must do for the thing or person we love so dearly. Sometimes we can't see past our own emotions. Holding on in such situations causes more pain than eventually letting go does. When emotions are involved, it can be very hard to make decisions based on logic. Nobody would sugest putting the dog to sleep if an alternative can be found. Maybe this dogs true calling in life is to 'work', and with a handler that has experience with this type of dog. Are we looking at whats best for Rottylover01's emotional ties, or what is best for the dog? I certainly believe that none of these trainers he has seen already, would have suggested giving the dog up, unless it was truly warranted. Sometimes decisions that go against our emotions are so hard to make. But unfortunately all through life we must continually make decsiions that we don't like, but must make because that is the best solution. If owner and/or dog are in a continuous state of stress.. Then holding on is not being fair to either Rottylover01 or the dog! I feel for you Rottylover01, I really do. I know how dificult it can be to make such a hard decision, if that is what is required. You must make a decision based on whats best for your dog, not the emotional attachment you have for the dog. Love has no ties.... I wish you all the best.

deelee2 Please, don't be discouraged. It's like reading a dog training book and then going out and doing what the book says. Unfortunately the book isn't about you and YOUR dog, nor can a book stand back and observe you, and let you know what you are doing right and where you are going wrong. The amount of houses I have been to and you see 4 or 5 books on dog training sitting on the table, and the owner still can't get it right. Yet in 1 lesson, and me observing what they are doing wrong, it all clicks in. So don't feel you are alone. Thats why I don't really like giving advice in writing, and not being able to observe what you are doing wrong, to steer you in the right direction. I am hoping all going well, I will have attentiveness training videos on my site for free within the next month or so, for anyone to look at and learn the techinque. But again the problem still comes down to someone being able to observe you, if the technique is not working out. I honour you, because you are making the effort. Don't give up... You will succeed if deep down that is your ultimate belief. Most important point to remember...believe in yourself, and that will transfere to your dog training.

You should have mine by this sunday Erny.

Hi deelee2 The problem we have is that I have no idea how you are going about it, or if your timing is correct, and not able to look at your body language when you are carrying out the exercise. Nor can I view your dogs body language. Body language and attitude have so much to do with this type of training. You are probably not firm and assertive enough with her, or you could be too assertive at the wrong times and she is going into avoidance. So many people just keep turning and instantly correcting without watching their dog. It is SO IMPORTANT that when your dog turns to follow you when you turn that there is NO correction. If you turn and she isn't attentive towards you, you must maintain the same pace and walk in an assertive manner without showing any hesitation or slowing down. Also to many turn, the dog doesn't follow so they stop, face their dog and jerk on the lead. This is wrong.. You must keep the pace going, and walk confidently away from your dog. If you sense your dog is trying to respond, you DO NOT correct, instead encourage. If you are overly correcting your dog, you will create avoidance behaviour, as your dog dosen't know what to do to stop the correction. I see this a lot when people are not watching their dog when they turn and continually correcting their dog. What generally happens then is that if your dog IS attentive toward you, and you turn the dog tries to avoid the correction by quickly pulling back away from you. Then again the owner corrects. The dog has no out from the correction. You also don't wait till your dog is pulling out in front. You turn when your dog is not being attentive towards you. You watch your dog, if she isn't paying attention to you, you turn, you don't wait until she is out in front of you. Hopefully when I get the videos done, you will have a better idea of what I am talking about, and know where you are going wrong. With is method, in about 80% of dogs I can have them being attentive towards me in under 20 mins. But remembering I have been training dogs for many years. But there is no reason you shouldn't start seeing results that fast if your timing, body language, and encouragement and corrections are carried out appropriately..

Both are related... you have a very assertive pup that needs discipline! I am sure you are probably giving in to his assertiveness.... When you pick him up and the throws his tantrum, what do you do? Give in and put him down, or maintain control until he gives in to you? And I mean till he TOTALY gives in and displays calm relaxed body language? On lead - Assertive body language, jumping up and biting is wanting to control. Your dog is probably frustrated because he can't understand why he can't go where he wants. He is seeking control. Condition your dog to understand you never give in to him..NEVER Have you done loose lead training with him?

Ahh... (Sorry re-read OP). Are you there when they are feeding? Packleader controls all the resources. In the past did you indicate to your Labs that food was coming and lets all get excited? Did your male lab show assertive body language when he knew food was coming? When you have 2 male dogs wanting to control resources such as food, then you have problems. Do your dogs or the Dane claim the food as soon as you put the bowl down, or do you make them wait and in a relaxed calm stated looking at you? Could you inadvertantly be building up their social aggression by allowing the dogs to claim the food? I am confused though....do the dogs live together when nobody is home? As you say it only happens when in the yard alone? I would desex him..and as you said that is happening soon.

Same here, would love to have gone.... Ivan is highly respected all over the world. Should be a great seminar!

I understand how you feel RottyLover1. But a phone call costs nothing. Craige would be at the top of my list in QLD, and possibly Australia, and this advice is from someone (me) with over 28 years professional dog training and behaviour experience. Calling Craige maybe the break you need. If you are ok waiting another 3 months, then that is your choice. But you must also look at it from the dogs point of view.. Are you really doing what is best for him? I know the Pawman, and know he would only offer the most appropriate advice. Sometimes we must face the truth no matter how much we block our ears to it. I do not know what the problem is with your Rotty or the problems you are facing, as I haven't read every entry in this post. But I am sure you will make the right decision at the appropriate time. I hope it all works out for you.

Hi deelee2 If your dog is resisiting it's most probably because you are working your dog on a tight leash. When you spin away from your dog and walk in the oposite direction, the leash MUST be loose. As you turn away from your dog you must keep focus on him/her as you turn, if he doesn't follow you give very quick pops on the collar while you keep moving forward. If he does follow then you just walk and encourage with NO pops on the collar. Pulling your dog creates resistance, therefore your dog pulls back on the lead.. You need to have your dog focused on walking forward, not resisting and pulling back. If your dog is focusing on pulling back (resisting), then thats what we are teaching the dog. Your body language, state of mind and intention are so important when using this to train your dog to be attentive under distraction. In the next few weeks I will be placing video training clips on my site. The first lot of clips will be on correct attentiveness training techniques. I don't like giving training advice over the net or in writing, as usually the written word doesn't express exactly what we are trying to explain, and different people interpret the instructions differently. I much prefer to demonstrate first then watch my clients, to ensure they are doing it correctly. Bad technique or timing can cause confusion in your dog, and not be condusive to good training outcomes.

For a dog with high levels of seperation anxiety I personally wouldn't be playing hide and seek. If the dog is so highly stressed when the owner goes out of site, and a person is holding the dog back, this stress level will rise significantly. Then when the person lets go of the dog, and the dog goes looking for the owner in a highly stressed condition, finds the owner we are actually making matters worse. We are building up the dogs stress, and then reinforcing a stressful state of mind by being rewarded for finding the owner.. I do not recommend this at all for dogs with extremely high levels of seperation anxiety.

You may find that the cold air spray training collar will not be suitable for dogs focused in high drive. If it's just for general obedience around the home, and your dog isn't an overly high drive/intensely focused dog, then yes a very good training collar. In regards to drive, I am not of course speaking about food drive. I am talking about high levels of prey, fight (Active aggression), defence (reactive aggression), social drive, etc....

Have you tried Craige Murray? He is probably one of the best up that way. He is on the Gold Coast. I would class him as one of the trainers/behaviourists at the top of his profession in Australia. http://www.dogschool.com.au

Putting your dog into a kennel will not fix seperation anxiety. You need to change your relationship with your dog, and how she veiws you. Sounds like you have conditioned your dog to be overly dependant on you. This is usually caused by 'mothering' a young dog to much, and not allowing it to deal with stress in a natural way. I would get a good behaviourist out to assess how bad the situation is and to guide you in the right direction to building your dogs confidence levels up, and not to be overly dependant on you.