RuralPug

I thought I recognised him - Steven Seagull, isn't it? Damn - deliberate mispronunciation in text just doesn't work.

I don't know either but judging from the postcode is it in Sydney somewhere?

The dog is in Burwood NSW. The ad is already four days old. I sent the link by PM to HMD about an hour back and she was off and running with it as far as I know, (unless we were already too late ) but in case Jane has not yet found a spot my guess would be that she could easily find a temp spot pending transport to you Maree - perhaps you could email her directly with the offer??? it is fantastic that back up is available

Ummm it is not usually a simple fix in small breeds like Maltese predisposed to corneal conditions. Calcium deposits usually occur due to long term corneal damage. In the case of this girl her history with the eyelash rubbing MIGHT account for it but I tend to agree with kirty that the other eye doesn't look wonderful either. And, not intending to be rude, it might quite easily be a misdiagnosis. It is the rare general vet that is an eye specialist too. Did your niece say whether the drops were only for that single eye or if they were for both? If she were mine, I really would be getting her to an eye specialist.

Sigh I think you will find that situation much closer even than South America...I'm thinking the Indian subcontinent with pai dogs living among, but not with, humans. And possibly even camp dogs here in Australia, although I think their lot has largely improved over the last decade or two.

Alas, being no where near a coast fresh fish is prohibitively priced for me. Fresh water species are the only ones actually available fresh here (rainbow trout and the like) and they are still pricey. (Rabbit is cheap and fresh from nearby paddocks though LOL). The bones in the canned fish are totally soft and splinterproof so those are the only bones I ever feed cooked, but to me the bones in fresh fish seem splinters already and I do worry about them getting caught in the soft palette of the small brachy breeds - even against all logic, sorry. Thanks for the reassurance, though!

Stan has been hiding his light under a bushel LOL Don't show Maddie that seagull pic though!

Donatella perhaps Denise from PAWS in Sydney would be a good starting point as I see this little one is not in your state? If PAWS does not have a current space itself then quite possibly she will know of one. Just my first thought.

YES!!!!! You would hate for someone wrong to access that link from your post!

This particular thread spans years but if you take the time to read it there is so much information that you will learn heaps. It's about 50 pages long so you might not be able to wade through it in a single sitting but do take the time (or times) : Natural Feeding Chit Chat There are a great many dogs who prefer meat on the bone over minced meat and I would never consider that a bad thing at all! What I do consider a bad thing (puts on stern face) is you letting this puppy train you to hand feed her . It's fine to take her preferences into account up to a point but letting her dictate is not good. It could lead to her being overly fussy and refusing to eat a whole group of somethings that your careful research into her diet show that she needs. Personally I wouldn't exclude weight bearing bones altogether from her diet as they make the very best toothbrushes but I might well remove the marrow so that she doesn't get it all at once (being a small breed) and add it to the goody bag of extras to be doled out in small portions. A cleaver can be your very best friend if you don't have a pet bandsaw . Something else that you might like to consider offering once or twice a week is a meal of fish. For a small dog one tin of sardines or a fillet from a tin of canned mackerel makes a meal ( if you are feeding twice a day) and is an excellent source of antioxidants. Some prefer to feed fresh fish which is something I have no experience with (plus I admit to worrying about all those sharp needles of fish bones in raw fish ). And of course you realize that puppy growth needs are not exactly the same as needs in other stages of her life so be prepared to tweak and tweak again as she passes through different ages. Edit to correct punctuation.

See this is part of the reason I am a proud member! It is a concrete example of putting health and welfare first and foremost so that information is readily available without decades of studying lines in a breed.

I'm not sure that it's within forum rules to actually post a link of that type that but in the case of that particular cross, favoured of puppy farms, perhaps "professionally bred" in the sense of "the oldest profession" is accurate. I take your point, though, it definitely would be misleading to the general public, including that poor owner. I bet they were really cute as puppies. Is there any chance that there is a small breed rescue close to you that you could alert to that pair? At least they are desexed so no danger from that side of it. :) Edited to add - I've just looked at the "additional info" section of that ad and the owner has been completely hoodwinked by the puppy farm, as he has written YES to the pedigree papers? question even though he is aware they are crosses of two different breeds. He hasn't used a "designer breed" name or anything. Perhaps the puppy farm supplied him with a document giving the names of each parent for the dogs and he honestly believes that equates to pedigree papers. Exactly the kind of lack of education that we are talking about. Maybe the next home will equally proudly believe that they own a pair of pedigreed cross breeds. Oh by the way I do not apologise for being judgemental of that breeder.

Yes...educate. And plot to disseminate that education as widely as possible, both to breeders and potential purchasers. But if you are going to regulate at all then regulate EVERY breeder, including the accidental once-in-a-lifetime oops forget to desex down the road AND the high volume puppy farmers AND the once a year BYBs as well as registered breeders (some of whom may be also in the other categories, dammit). Whether they are producing purebreds or cross breds or complete Heinz varieties. And then actually police the laws you make (this is where regulation fails dismally in this country IMO). I think Switzerland has got it right with some of their legislation - before you can become a new owner you must pass a basic course demonstrating your understanding of the needs of your chosen dog, how you can meet those needs, the needs of society re your dog and how you can meet those needs. Sort of Responsible Dog Ownership. And you are also I believe required to have your new dog or puppy pass some sort of Canine Good Citizen exam within a certain number of months of acquisition. Breeders there have to pass courses that demonstrate they understand all the things we talk about when we say "ethical breeder" - I think ( or do I just hope? Finding out the details of the Swiss owner and breeder courses is on my to-do list but it might be a while before that particular round tuit reaches the top of my in tray. Ooooooh has any DOLer already done that research and would care to share with us all? ). WARNING: RANT HERE - please feel free to ignore entirely:

Poor dogs.

I hope it is not too late already.

Thank you so much for that clarification...I had the impression that her dam was a full Dogue (de Bordeaux) and her sire was a Mastiff x Dogue. Wait - a quick google tells me that Dogues are known as French Mastiffs in some countries and Bordeaux Bulldogs elsewhere, so I've learnt something thanks!! I do know English Mastiff is a common misname for the breed here, as that is the breed name in America. Hybrid vigour for a trait will only apply when a single one of the breeds in an F1 cross carry that trait. When both breeds carry the trait (as in the diseases I listed that were common to both) there is exactly the same chance as the pure blood in either breed. That is why health scoring of the parents is so very important. And, I'm sorry to have to say, that in an F2 cross, rather than so-called hybrid vigour, puppies have chances of inheriting the recessive traits of different problems of BOTH grandparent breeds, even of traits not common between the two breeds. If both her parents were this cross, then your girl is an F2 cross and hybrid vigour no longer applies. But my fingers are crossed for her and I know you will take all possible precautions. Wishing you the very best of luck.

I certainly agree - narrow will produce problems. Here is incredidibly narrow (Frenchie, but I've seen it in Pugs too) Edited to add - I've seen them natural as in the second pic...but that one is a random Google image so I can't really attest. I would sincerely hope it is natural as the dog is a titled champion overseas (not that I would ever use those light eyes in a stud).

And from a vet school perspective: So I hope that you can see where I'm coming from.

Just from the first page of google images: This one I call narrow: This one I call wide: There are other examples of both on the page.

Madison and Shannon, my Mastiff lived until 11, as did most of her line, but I do note that the Dogues do have a very short lifespan Please familiarise yourself with Gastric Torsion (Bloat) and how to avoid it as it can cause a swift and painful death especially in these giant breeds. Also please research the joint disease OCD (Osteochrondritis Dissecans) and how to raise your puppy to avoid it - it is a very painful condition, that can occur very easily in giant breed puppies. I agree with the comment earlier that you should report the breeder for releasing an underage pup - that is NOT a reflection at all on your ability to care for the pup. It is a reflection on the breeder. It is illegal in most states (including NSW) to sell a pup under 8 weeks old and there are good reasons for this. See section 9 here for the details of the law in your state. Other recommendations for a good breeder include them furnishing you with written information on the optimum way to raise your pup (fortunately you have been supplied diet information from other sources, but it does reflect very badly on your pup's breeder) and for the parents to be tested and scored in genetically transmittable conditions where such tests exist. Conditions common to both the Dogue and the Mastiff where health scores/ certificates of the parents are recommended are: Hip Dysplasia Elbow Dysplasia Heart disease Eye diseases In addition, committed and responsible breeders test for thyroid issues in the Dogue before breeding. The above mentioned laws include in section 10 the recommendation that all health testing be undertaken, this is a best practice rather than an enforced law, thus it is not illegal not to health test but it is enshrined as good breeding practice. I sincerely hope that you do hit the good luck jackpot and your puppy has inherited none of these diseases. You have fallen in love with her now and are totally committed. I hope she brings you much joy, but I could never, in good conscience, recommend to anyone a breeder of either of her breeds that has not undertaken health scores or certifications as I have seen far too much heartbreak and sadness from poor breeding of these giant breeds. I pray that you do not have to learn the hard way, as so many have.

It is lack of education combined with an instant shopping mentality and clever marketing (this will never ever shed because one parent is a woolled breed - therefore you won't ever have to vacuum or dry clean dog hairs and they are magically non-allergenic as well!!!). No mention of course of the huge investment in time or money for grooming if it does inherit a woolled coat... Sadly, some of those breeders believe their own marketing - that is wilful stupidity, in my book.

For most of the BYB's and pf's out there back to back breeding is overly hard on the bitch simply because they do not give adequate care and nutrition to the bitch when in whelp and feeding puppies. Nor do they ensure that their bitch is at the peak of physical fitness before breeding her in the first place. So the science is put aside as a welfare measure due to the ignorance of the many. I couldn't agree more on your last point about fertility Steve - and the fact that in some breeds the ability to free whelp is so rare that Caesareans are routinely scheduled and expected horrifies me. Also, in the old days, once a bitch was adult that was when you decided whether or not she was a breeding prospect . These days it seems politically incorrect to breed before a title has been attained and bad luck if she is past the peak age for a first litter and the "pelvic bones have set" as we used to say (which led to whelping problems). Mind you, I am not advocating breeding before physical maturity either - although aqain we have to obey arbitrary rules there these days to compensate for the ignorance of the many. Edited to get rid of big empty space caused by foster cat on keyboard.....

Hmmmm...its all about quality of life for me. I don't consider a brachy breed to have BAS if it doesn't affect their quality of life. It is only a syndrome if it causes problems, in my view. Others may choose to interpret it differently. For me, the level of BAS that requires surgical intervention in order to lead a normal life is totally unacceptable - and I agree that there are far, far too many examples out there. That is extremely poor breeding. Even more moderate levels of BAS that don't require surgical intervention but require lifestyle modification such as restricted exercise I consider poor breeding. There are Pugs (and other brachy breeds) titled in flyball and agility and rally-o etc and some of these have their conformation titles as well - it can be done and it is being done. I would like to see ALL breeders aim to produce that quality of life. If you've mainly only seen poorly bred ones then it doesn't surprise me that you have rarely seen Pugs with good wide nostrils and a good bit of nose (not muzzle but nose) covered by a nose roll so that the face appears flat. They are out there, and the best breeders ensure that their stock do have good wide nostrils and that bit of nose (BTW round lustrous eyes full of fire does NOT mean goggling eyes, no matter what puppy buyers want!) Nor is it impossible to select for good palettes, provided that one is willing to cease breeding from lines that do develop soft palette problems. Historically, I believe too many breeders of confirmation and.or companion dogs have allowed unacceptable conditions like BAS and HD/ED (and many others) to contaminate their lines in their rush to produce unduly exaggerated features for the conformation ring or for the puppy buying public. It is still happening today, both inside and outside pure breed circles. Not only with brachy breeds. Yes, the ANKC have recently modified some standards so that they are less likely to be interpreted in a harmful fashion - but this really only affects that tiny proportion of dogs bred for the conformation ring. We should be aiming for ALL breeders to take as much care and forethought as the best ones - and for the puppy buying public to help enforce that by choosing and researching more carefully. How to achieve that is what should be the focus of discussion - if we can suggest a template for the brachy breeds, perhaps it can be applied to perceived problems in other breed types as well. Alternatively, we can just shrug and say it's Somebody Else's Problem ..the ostrich approach .

LOL he needs to do better sums...the feeding, training and care of the ferrets plus the hunting times, petrol etc. could easily work out to a lot more than $6.50 a carcass! :)

The secretary of the Vic Pug Club has advised me that all the Vic brachy clubs have been working on a response to this for some time, I presume together with Dogs Vic. It is a fact that not every flat faced dog has BAS, no more than every GSD or golden retriever has HD. But it is true that only flat faced dogs suffer this condition. Most ethical breeders would support moves to health test and score brood stock for patella health, width of nares etc. But I suspect that it will have about as much impact as regs re hip and elbow scoring have had. Unless the general public know to ask for the parents' scores, then they will continue to buy from non-ethical breeders who do not test.