4leggedvariety

can't agree more with mark's comments. Dogs are not dolphins, chickens, or lab rats. A couple of years ago, I was at Seaworld watching a sea lion show. The performing sea lion was sitting on its box doing something when someone accidentally left out another sea lion too early into the tank. The performing sea lion immediately disappeared into the water. The marine mammals trainers tried every thing to get him back, including dangling fish on the edge of this runabout but to no avail. This went on for 10-15 mins and at the end, they just have to say over the loud speaker the sea lion was having a bad day. Our dogs don't live in a sterile environment, nor can we afford to laugh it off & say the dog is having a bad day when it runs off and bites somebody. Dogs are dogs and they have instincts unique to that species. What one choose to believe & ignore is up to them, but the problem arises when someone uses a one size hits all approach to dog training. This may sound philosophical, but this world strives to achieve BALANCE. Think of something that does not work best when in equilibrium?

If the dog is holding the DB steady without help while sitting, the next step i do to get them moving without dropping DB is to get them to learn to keep its chin up moving just 1 step. This is crucial. I go back to helping them understand what I want. I kneel down on my knees about an arm's length away, dog sitting holding DB. I place my left hand, palm up under dog's chin supporting it, with my fingers gripping onto the flat collar. This way I have control of the dog's head and its chin and I do a 'Come', gently guiding the come, making sure the dog only needs to get up from sit, move 1 step forward, and fit in front again with chin slightly up. Because I have control of its head, it can't spit the dummy so to speak and I guarantee he is successful and praise & reward. I will keep on doing this step and lessen the support until the dog can do it without any help from me at all. Be patient with this step, once the dog understands this and gets enough rewards, getting it to come from further will not be a problem. I work until I can get dog to come with DB in mouth from a distance of a normal recall, then I get dog to do some short heeling with it, and come fore with it as well.

So I agree with PF and Erny that the food thing may be confrontational and in hind sight better left out. Carp has 2 options, return the dog and start again or work at the problem. How else is Carp going to implement leadership skills required? He or she has done all the right things so far, recognised the problem early and seek professional help at 4 months of age and has spent a huge amount of money for advise that has not helped so far. How can he/she find somebody to give him/her the right advise without breaking the bank?

Carp, I don't mean to sound arrogant, but $2000 for the advise you have been given is way over the top. All those info can be obtained from a book. I really wondered what sort of dog handling experience these behaviourists have or they learn everything from a book. If you look at a pack of dogs and there is an issue over somethng, one will bite another (or growl ) if it perceives it to be more dominant and not the other way round. I know a lot of these behaviourists tend to avoid the word 'Dominant' at at cost. They see it as a very nasty word. It conjures up the image of 'Aggression', but in fact it is the right description. It is more an attitude than anything else. To be able to control your dog's behaviour, you have to be seen by the dog as the more dominant one, no ifs and buts. Physical confrontation is not necessary, is all in the mind. I don't think one can solve issues of dominance(either with you or other dogs) without re-establishing a new rank structure between you & your dog. Remember, leader owns & dictates everything, & I stress everything. There is no democracy, but it is done in a calm manner. Aggression is not in the equation. Something you may want to try to do to re-establish that leadership role: - put some food in a closed container and put in on the ground. If your dog is dominant over you, it most likely will dive for it. Instead of using 'obedience' commands like 'Leave'. I would use body blocks to block acesss to the food. Step in to stop your dog everytime so it can't get at it, at the same time look the dog in the eye, say nothing, stand tall, chest out as if to say' This food belongs to me, you stay away. Your dog may growl at you, say nothing, stand your ground, and keep on looking it in the eye. You want your dog to back away by itself and you take the container & claim it. Don't reward her with food. It is your right to claim the food. -at doorways, instead of telling it 'sit stay' , again use your body to block your dog from exiting before you do until she hangs back voluntarily, say nothing, look at her out of the corner of your eye then you go first and give her permission to enter or exit. Do that everytime you leave & return after a walk. No rewards given, is the leader's right to enter & exit first. -on your walks, walk her at heel all the time to start off with a short loose lead, do not allow her to lead out in front of you and dictates where to go. Make her follow where you go, you set the pace, sometimes walk slow, sometimes fast, everything is your decision and you go where you want to go. Do not let her sniff unless you have given her permission to do so. Don't worry about avoiding other dogs. If you see one, walk past it, you stick your chest out and ignore the other dog and ignore what your dog does. If people want to pat her, just say to them she is not friendly. - be more aloof, especially when you return home after work or after separation from her. enter the house and ignore her as if she is not there. After a while you call her over to say hello, don't make her centre of attention. - continue to teach commands using reward based training - everything given to the dog has to be seen as a privilege, must be earned, even getting into or out of the car. not allowed until you give permission -put away all toys, nothing belongs to her. She gets her exercise on walks, and scheduled play time & terminate on your terms. I find the new book by 'The Dog Whisperer Cesar Millan' called ' Be the Pack Leader' interesting read. A lot of people bagged him because he uses the 'Alpha Roll'. Forget about that and practise the other things. It is the 'Calm Assertive' energy you want to project and he is right, animals do respect that. Once your dog respects you, you will be able to influence her behaviour towards other dogs and people. As i said before, obedience training controls the body, not the mind. To be able to control the mind, the dog must accept that you are more dominant over her. Once established, you will be able tp stop unwanted behaviour by warning and a hard stare. Good luck with her.

carp, what did you do when your pup bit you? what have the 2 behaviourists advised you to do so far? training commands in a sense gives you control of the dog's body, not his mind. If your personality is that you are better suited to a more obliging character, then I think is better to return her.

Well Pax, No one is asking you to do what I do. You are right, you should not do anything you don't have any knowledge of or don't feel comfortable in doing. The post is to open your eyes to all sorts of different approaches. It does not mean it is the only workable method, though it is a very easy and reliable method for me & my dogs and at the end of learning, they all have very good attitudes & drive towards the retrieve. Noticed that I have not described how it is done and I did say I do NOT teach other people to do what I do. Unless you have an open mind to digest all methods of training and use experience and understanding of the animal you are working with to evaluate what is suitable for you and your dog(s), you will never be a good trainer. Broaden your horizon!!

You probably won't like to hear this, but I have trained 3 dogs to RELIABLY retrieve using the 'FORCED RETRIEVE'. One is a lab, then a cocker & now a poodle X. All have taken about 2 months from the very start to retrieving reliably in new grounds with varying distractions and apart from the lab, they are pretty soft dogs. I prefer to show the dog what I want it to do, rather than let the dog figure it out himself. I always start off with the hold and backwards chain so none of my dogs will ever drop the dumbell before being asked to 'give', nor will they mouth the thing. I physically put the thing in the mouth and hold the mouth shout gently until 'give', then reward. Work towards dog letting me put the thing in its mouth and holding it himself until 'give. Then work on 'the present', meaning put DB in dog's mouth, dog holds it himself, then ask him to come, hold until 'give', always followed by reward after 'give'. The last thing I teach is the 'Take' and I can freely tell you i use the 'EAR PINCH', which is negative reinforecement. Most people will be horrified at that. It is not something I teach people to do, but I do not hesitate to use it. The timing has to be spot-on and there should never be any negative emotion coming from the handler. All 3 dogs have not needed more than 3 pinches each to learn to reach for the DB. After that I can just hold their ear without pinching for them to learn to pick up from the ground, later from further away. The DB is not thrown until the dog can pick it up from a distance when I place it down without holding their ear. Every correct response is rewarded. The holding part is never a problem after the 'take', as it has already been trained. Once they learnt that, all of them retrieve happily and reliably and you would not believe that there has been any negative reinforcements used. They understand that 'Fetch' means pick up this thing and bring it back and it transfers to other objects without any difficulties, whether it is thrown or not. The lab & the cocker, being gundogs, have some retrieving instincts but the poodle X has none at all.

I know I will get flamed for saying this, I will have given Molly much more than a time out. YOU DO NOT BITE PEOPLE NO MATTER WHAT SIZE THEY ARE. FULL STOP. From what you said, it could well be that Molly was saying to your daughter, 'This is my ball and you reck off'. I think Molly is a very clever girl, very sharp, very perceptive and knows who she can push around. It is very disappointing to hear this news since you are doing so well with her. I urge you to seek professional help (may be K9 Force) to honestly evaluate whether she is the right temperament for your family, especially for your daughter. not that Molly has a bad temperament. In very experienced hands she will be a great dog. If adults around are not perceptive or knowledgeable enough to read the dog to prevent potential disasters, it will all end in heartache. I say this with no disrespect to you or hubby as we all have to start & learn from somewhere. I screwed up my first dog, also a female lab very similar nature to Molly, as I did not possess the ability to read and understand that kind of temperament. That's not to say you have to rehome her, but at least seek help and truly ask yourself all the questions. Your daughter's safety IS more important than anything else and you do not want to or is it fair to leave her with lasting fear of dogs.

Wingus, I do not believe the issue of leadership & trust is confined to specific situations. I think it is a general perception from the dog's point of view as how we humans project ourselves. Therefore it is really achieved through all interactions we have with our dogs as we live with them day by day, based on TOT & NILIF and all other leadership things I am sure you know about. As we EARN trust & respect, you will find that your dogs behaviour will change in those situations, or you will be able to influence their behaviour without having to follow specific steps. As Erny rightly pointed out, is not possible to do this over the net as your dog's behaviour is not being observed. Again, totally agreed with Erny that if food is given at the wrong time for the wrong purpose, it will make matters worse. IMO there is a tendency these days to use food to try to cure all problems. I have seen over the years that a lot of nervous dogs are hyper & overexcited, so you need to project the opposite CALM AND IN CONTROL. If you walk past somebody and Pepper barks at them, just keep walking straight ahead and do not give any feedback to Pepper (either positive or negative) until you can see the dog is calm. I do not believe in the school of offering food to a dog that is in a state of excitement or nervousness. The dog has to be in a calm state of mind before positive reinforcements can be given. IMO this is when observation of the dog is paramount. Good timing makes all the difference. I think indiscriminate offering of food irrespective of the dog's emotion state is dangerous.

Wingus, If Pepper is a nervous dog by nature, all the barking she is doing is not a challenge to all other people. A nervous dog will do that if it feels unsafe in that situiation, so makes lots of noise as a way of self-defense. I totally agree with Erny's advise, step-up your leadership skills so Pepper can look to you for protection instead of giving her the responsibility of protecting herself. This means she must trust you that she won't be hurt and she can see that you are confident enough to handle the situation. You also need to decide what type pf people can approach her, some people always want to force themselves onto dogs, despite the dog telling them it does not want to be touched.

Oh, hasn't she grown . She has the typical pre-teenage look about her. I wish I have some photos of my first lab that I can show you, almost identical. I'll see if I can scan some pics of her. She is now long gone, she was from the pre-digital camera era. I have found with all my dogs if I don't make any attempt to try to get them to swim and just ignore what they do or don't do, very quickly they come & join in the fun. Looks like your family & Molly are having so much fun. Good on ya

Anothrt 3 I say, and just turn overnight.

was the chook alone or was there other species present?

I asked because I think that may be a behaviour that is totally against the chook's instinct, to have a human walk around and touch it without moving. Is only an assumption.

littlelab, It's so wonderful to hear that you & Molly are going along great guns and hope the birthday party today is a success. Please let us know how that went. Now that you have success with the food, you can apply the same methods to all the other privileges you are going to give her. Examples like going through doorways, going for a walk, playing a game with her, getting attention from anybody etc etc etc. She has to comply with your wishes first, then you grant her permission to do the activity that follows. Pity Molly could not have any birthday cake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For all the trainers out there, do you think it's possible to train a chook to perform a trial ring standard stand free for exam?

Good. You will probably find the more control & respect you have from each dog towards you, the more you will be able to influence their behaviour towards each other. The dogs keep on teaching us new things everyday, don't they!

Yes, used to read the articles he writes in a publication called TOP DOG years ago. Also met him at a schutzhund training workshop By Gottfired Dildei (American German) about 12 years ago in Brisbane. I think he trains search & rescue and cadaver dogs, Bloodhounds or something. What else he does, I don't know. He seemed to be very knowledgable as well as open-minded about all different training techniques when we were speaking. But God, that was years ago.

OH, forgot, one more thing. When the food bowl is on the ground, just try walking a few steps backwards & forwards and see what happens? May be interesting?

She is gorgeous, littlelab. I like the 'big star' tag, she deserves (and you as well) a star. With the food thing, if she is still going well tomorrow, you may want to vary it a little. Instead of having the empty bowl on the ground, sometimes hold the empty bowl in your hand at her eye level. She still has to sit, see you toss the food into the bowl, wait for your permission and let her eat with you holding bowl. Don't say too much and don't move the bowl. The idea is to teach her humans holding food bowl while she is eating is NOT a threat. You are still continuing making her earn for food by complying with your wishes first and you decide when shw can have it. Have you considered trying the BARF diet? Raw diet, nothing artificial, no preservatives, nothing is processed.

Well Done little lab. If she is not growling, may be keep at it for the time being and may be hubby can do the dinner the same way. Provided all goes well, increase the amount of food you toss into the bowl each day so she spends more time eating from the bowl with you standing next to her. try not to change other variables yet eg. moving bowl around or sticking your hand in there. Sounds like little Molly is a real smart cookie. Is her body language relaxed when you are standing there while she is eating? Or does she sort of eats & at the same time glance at you? You said you patted her during'it'. Do you mean while she is sitting or while she is eating? I hope you are enjoying Molly more. Have you had a chance to contact K9 Force yet?

Would you believe it, is quite common. It sounds like my previous lab have been reincarnated in Molly, except mine did not growl with food, but she did all the other things you have mentioned. No one really knows why they do it, I have known both male & female adults & puppies do it. I tried tobasco over the poo, she just licked off the tobasco and then help herself to it. Mine started off eating just her own , then up the ante to eating other dogs' poo as well. So much fun taking her to dog parks. I have exhausted all options, & at the end, i just followed her around in the dog park and startle her everytime I see her taking a gulp at it. At home, I watch her do poos and pick them up immediately afterwards, otherwise, she turns around and starts eating it. Talk about automatic poo cleaning machine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! She can be choosy though, I have examined the ones she liked & is usually the big bulky ones that may be by-products of canned dog food. Don't know. Do not have the same problems now. Had 7 dogs since then, none of them does it.

I don't think walking away if Molly growls at you is a good idea. If you think it is an association with the food bowl, why don't you try this. Have all the kibble or whatever you are going to feed her with in your hand. Place her empty bowl on the floor right next to your feet. Have her sitting facing you. All food belongs to you. Let her wait for your 'OK' or whatever command you want to use, and then toss a few kibble into the bowl and she can then eat from the bowl. After that, repeat the sit and then repeat the whole process until all the food is gone. Stand there while she is eating but say nothing. This way, she is waiting for your permission to eat, your presence near the bowl means more food could be on its way, and you are also practising the sit. Does this make sense at all?

I guess no more puppies from them ever, yeh?

Just remember to not go overboard with the growling business, Have praise & positives too when she is behaving as you want, just a balancing act. Cats are the best teachers most of the time, consistent and immediate, mean what they say. Won't take Molly long to catch on. If she is persistent, a few more swipes and a few more yelps.. Do not rescue her, let her figure it out and she will learn self control & respect for the cat. Continue with the good work, littlelab. BTW, may I ask what kennel (breeder) you got Molly from? Have you heard from them since you let them know you have a problem?