Tapferhund

Exactly and Very well said Tangwyn !!!!!!

*"If my dog was to either not drop, do so slowly etc,etc.... they simply would not get their reward. Because the reward is so high - they percieve that as a 'correction' per se.... Not only that - they know that they get the 'best' rewards by fast, precise work. Usually I will also instill a no reward marker such as 'nup' or 'uh-uh' in a neutral voice to tell them otherwise. If they were to still misbehave - then i'd pack up everything and go inside - if they aren't willing to work with me, I am not willing to work with them. I'll either go inside or bring another dog out to train that one smile.gif. Since they fully understand what their consequences are, they are quite willing to work for me etc. I do use voice corrections, but more-so in terms of bad manners."* Ohhh OK......sorry my misunderstanding , I thought I read that you use positive reinforcement "only" which really is an impossibility . I didn't realize that you DO balance that with negative punishment in your training.

K9 Force - Steve Courtney

Leopuppy, Reading your posts you have clearly got the wrong impression of what I was trying to get across in my posts and also of how I train my dogs. Mine are trained just as 'positively' as yours , I teach and train using food, balls and tug toys and then this continues (intermittently) throughout the proofing phase of my training....BUT...and ONLY if I need to, I will introduce a light correction, whether that be voice or hands on(correction on the chain).....if my dog offers me any sort of slow or sloppy work. How can you expect your dog to have a clear cut work ethic if when he gets something wrong nothing happens to him? If you told your dog to drop and he did so in his own good time, going down v-e-r-y slowly......or not at all..........what is your reaction towards him for this? How do you get across to him that his not complying is not acceptable to you?

"dogs who have never experienced a correction for trial work in there life yet would score 190+ on a regular basis in the ring." Ness, each breed is different each dog is different ......yes , many never need to be corrected but there are a hellava lot that do ,including the odd BC such as you obviously have. I have never owned a BC, but I do have Aussies as well as my GSD's and BOTH BC's and Aussies temperaments/characters are very different to German Shepherds. "My dogs have never had a 'proper' correction in their life- they also clearly understand the difference between rewards and NRM..... no lack of understanding there " Leopuppy, when you have owned,trained and trialed many dogs of other breeds with different and varying temperaments and characters, then I wonder if you will still say the same?...I would say not ! Aussies are a totally different kettle of fish to GSD's.....Aussies are a soft so easy to train always ready to comply breed......whereas, depending on the dog, GSD's can be a multitude of things , mostly they too can be as easy as an Aussie to train -always ready to comply,calm and self assured as they are supposed to be ,but there are also many dogs who are stubborn ,hard, strong, nervy, noisy , some can even suffer with ADHT , they can be dependant , independant ,easy to train,hard to train, high drive, low drive, no drive................totally different to your dogs your breed.

Hi ARYA, *you want the dog to *want* to work for you, not do it because they have to or they cop it!* Actually, it should be both ! Yes we definately want the dog to "want" to work, but at the same time the dog should have in the back of it's mind, "I have to work or else ........!!" If you compare what OUR Trialing dogs are expected to do in obedience trial exercises ...to say ...the type of work/exercises of a real working dog, Herder,Assistance dog,Security,Police or Armed Forces etc, what our dogs have to do is basically NOTHING .....it's easy........and yet NOT many PASS do they? Could you imagine what would happen if a Police Dog or an Assistance dog...or a Herding dog stuffed up and didn't do what it has been trained to do? There has to be a reason for this and IMO it is because most obedience trialers do not teach their dog/s that there are consequences for not working. Many tend to teach and train their dog/s the exercises required ,but then stuff up in the proofing of them in these exercises. They might proof by training their dog/s in different areas and situations,but don't tend to add to the dogs mind ,as part of the proofing , that there ARE now consequences for NOT "doing as you were told or asked." Another part of the problem (IMO) are the Judges and the Trials (rules) as THEY won't allow for correction of a dog for misbehaviour in the ring......and dogs being as smart as they are, SOON learn what they can get away with , what they don't have to do , when in a ring situation. You should be allowed to give a light correction to the dog when it is needed so as the dog realizes it MUST work in that (trial) situation too!

ROM... FANTASTIC post and I thoroughly agree with it !!! *Titles in the comparatively distraction sterile environment of the obedience ring do not qualify you to challenge the knowledge and experience of the above mentioned professionals* Titles ARE important ROM and for most of us , as cityor city fringe dwellers , trialing in obedience is ALL that is available as we are NOT in the Police,Armed forces ,Security nor do we have tens of thousands of sheep for our dogs to herd, so we do what we can....OK ! But I will say this , AS an obedience trialer.....once upon a time trialers had an open mind and you could discuss ,learn about and accept all methods of training and training tools with everyone.........but these days far too many are sanctimonious in their outlook on anything "they perceive" as NOT 100% positive reinforcement .....as THEY say.

"Who the heck still believes the major pet food companies: The last 12+ weeks of pet food recalls in the US, South Africa, Germany, NZ et al proved that the pet food labels mean nothing and the cheapest possible ingredients are used. Poisoned imported grain fractions from China are just the start. The bottom line & shareholders are far more important than your pet." Ashka , I agree ! Actually, some years ago a friend of mine lent me a copy of a report to read that exposed what was in the "by-products" used by pet food companies, especially the ones in the USA. The 'by products' and meat meal used was from the rendering plants where thousands of dead dogs,cats, wild animals and animals from zoos were taken to be rendered down in to dry meal and then sold to pet food companies . Funnily enough, last week I watched a program on SBS which was on pet cemeteries and in part of the program they spoke to an owner of a rendering plant and he was saying they get all sorts of animals, not only dogs ,cats ,horses etc but also an elephant and the odd giraffe from the local zoo in that area. He also said that where these animals and pets "really" go is kept from the general public. Seeing this program brought the report I had seen back to me, so there must be truth in it as to what went on and in to commercially made dog foods some years ago. . It also makes me wonder how much of it is still going on today. ???? Probably more than we realize OR are being told.

laffi, Not much of a OH if you have to "justify" to OH spending money on yourself.

I'm another who can't stand the group stays , never could and never will and I have been trialing for nearly 25 years now. Fights might be rare but they do happen and IMO are happening more often these days than they did in the past. Part of the problem is too many dogs are NOT reliable enough to trial and yet their owners keep entering them !

Found it... www.k9force.net/

4 paws, you need to see a behaviourist/trainer and one of the best is K9Force,who is also a member of this forum. Someone here will have his number or web address. If anyone can help you Steve can !

To put it in a nut shell .........Schutzund Judges judge for virtues , ANKC Judges judge for faults (IMO)

For the recall are you ready? on saying yes, I was told to leave my dog........... about turn and halt.......... call your dog and with that she promptly turned away to talk to another person that was standing by the ringside..... turning back to me "Oh, I didn't see that so I am goin to have to give you an NQ!!!!! Needless to say she won't get another entry from me again!!!! confused.gif Another one was so busy fiddling about with her paperwork when trying to give me a ring run out..... I was NQ'd and so where the next 3 competitors, as she just wasn't prepared." ........Geeez, not good Cala

Mysticviewbcs, The things that have happened to you are exactly what I have been talking about.........and what has happend to you is nothing short of disgraceful. As for UD and UDX dogs trialing in Open........I think the best solution to that is to have a seperate class for Open titled dogs. Manyclubs down here do this when they have a Trial and it works quite well, leaving everyone happy.

Like ANKC Judges, Schutzhund Judges expect precision and excellent work from competitors BUT the difference is ....if a particular exercise is not completed satisfactorily ,it means higher point loss for the ecercise along with an unsatisfactory rating for THAT exercise ONLY.......so the competitor can still pass for his Sch title,providing all other exercises have been satisfactorily completed. In other words, they just lose precious points and receive a lower rating for their work and title. The aim is to get the highest points and the high rating of Excellent. IMO Schutzhund obedience ,like that of their Tracking and Protection, uses and builds on the dogs natural abilities........it does not place dogs in stressful situations such as in ANKC sit/drop stays or out of sight stays handler out of sight while our dogs of different temp/char are being forced to be close to each other. In Schutzhund stays, while one handler/dog team is doing it's workout for the judge ,there is another dog out on the field doing it's drop stay.....with the owner standing about 50 good paces away with his/her back turned to the dog. While the dog is down, it is prefered that it stays ,as it has been told by the owner, but if it does fidget or move half a body length or lift its bum to turn over....etc, it doesn't fail.......it might lose a points BUT it does NOT fail. Back in my Schutzhund days, one of my dogs use to roll on to her back with all legs in the air(little bugger lol) or she would fidget and sniff the ground etc...........the Judges would comment on this and some even had a bit of a laugh about her antics....BUT she never failed.......because she DID the exercise....she stayed in the area where I had put her until I returned. She was not expected (for the duration of the stay) to turn into stone as some of our Judges seem to expect . For me there is good and bad in both ,but I have to admit I do prefer Schutzhund obedience.

MrsD It says 'many'.....and not "ALL"

"Hard to believe that all judges are out to get people!" MrsD, Where do you get this from? Where exactly in all the posts on this topic has this been said or suggested?..........NOWHERE!!! (Although......Judges ARE only human too with human frailties and if you ever p*ss one off , they will getcha..................and that's from personal experience..."TWICE.. ) MOST Judges are great, they are very helpful and always pleasant and a pleasure to compete under........BUT, there are those few who seem to enjoy using their "power" over competitors.

"I think that the stays need to be looked at. At the risk of being flamed, Schutzhund stays make far more sense to me, even if they are expected to do them for much longer." I don't think you will be flamed here Arya as there are quite a few Dogsport folk,enthusiasts here on this site. I do agree with you though, ANKC stays ,from the dogs point of view ,are really bad , they work 'against' the dogs natural abilities,behaviours,feelings and instincts and not 'towards' or for them in these areas IMO.......if that makes sense.

Flames Daddy, Thank you for your kind words , that's very nice of you !! To everyone else,thanks for your replies too. I know it can be a bit of a touchy subject,but I really feel some judges need to step back a little and review some of the ridiculous reasons they are non qualifying competitors on. Our hobby or chosen sport is meant to be an enjoyable one but for many it is fast becoming an annoying and frustrating one that they don't want to be bothered with anymore.

MrsD, You just don't get it.........or maybe you're a Judge??? "I read the rules & make sure my dog is at a much higher standard than is expected. I consider myself to be a very good handler & I would never dream of putting my hands on my stomach when I was doing a SFE or thinking that if my dog lifted it's bum in the DoR that it was entitled to a qualifier, but hey, that's just me" Whoopdie doo for you ! Like I said....you just don't get it......what we are talking about

OK everyone, thanks for your replies, I will answer each.....so here goes "Can I ask you, did you witness all of the above incidents?, or were they second hand news?" YES Dogdude, witnessed everyone of them and the examples are only a few of the unfairness I have seen . "MO the standard is there for a reason, and far too many handlers enter with a wing and a prayer attitude. Where do you draw a line in the sand?" I understand what you are saying and I am not suggesting lowering the bar(so to speak) to allow shoddy work to be able to pass. What I am complaining about is the punishment dished out , total NQ's ,by many Judges today ,far out weighs the crime. YES fail a dog/handler if the heel work is not up to standard with missing sits and drops etc or if any of the other exercises are not completed, but many of these dogs have done brilliantly in the exercise,completing it fully , only to be failed for some nit picking idiotic reason. I will give you another example,and this was a senior Judge who did this. Competitor and dog (GSD) enter the Open ring.......lovely heeling, stand for exam,drop on recall.........and then came the dumbell on the flat. Handler sends dog out, dog canters out picks dumbell straight up and returns at a fast gait to the handler.....completes the exercise with no problems. Does the last two exercises without a hitch and the guy thinks he is sitting on a good pass............so he has a look at his scores only to find he got an 8 for the Dumbell on the flat. He asks the Judge why(?) and the Judge tells him he didn't like the change of pace of the dog on the return, from cantering out to gaiting back, and that he expects all dogs to be more like GSP's who gallop out and gallop back.....and I was there when this happened to that poor guy. Needless to say he was so incensed by what had happened he threw trialing in then and there. "Well if these owners all failed from the same judge, perhaps they can all write letters to their club who held the trial to say not to have that person come judge again. It is quite pedantic from what you've described, but you can't change the past unfortunately." Witheverythingiam, All different competitors and all different Judges I'm afraid and NO you can't change the past...BUT this unfortunately is going to be the future as well and there is not much anyone can do about it other than give it away all together........like many have done and like many are considering. "thats obedience trialling for you," No it isn't Feralpup.........and that is part of the problem.....too many are too accepting of this type of unfairness for good work given. "Takes a bit of bravery to do this I know." JulesP, Bravery has got nothing to do with it... ;) ....to do so is to take your life in to your own hands WheresmyRock, I agree with you and that's pretty bad about the whippet.....but is exactly the type of thing I am talking about and it is totally unfair IMO and this sort of thing loses good trialing dog people to the sport/hobby.

Hi Tarmons, You can't revolt.......you can't even question a Judge or you get hauled over the coals for it. It doesn't matter how much a 'general member' is in the right over an issue, the controling bodies don't see it that way......in other words, Judges can do no wrong............but it will all come back on them one day......when they have few people left to trial.

This is not about Judge bashing nor is it about the genuine mistakes handler/dog teams can make resulting ,deservedly so ,in them non qualifying at trials,but I do think many Judges these days have become or are becoming TOO pedantic in their Judging ,much of which is bordering on nit picking the ridiculous. Once upon a time Judges wanted you to pass but in the last few years the opposite seems true IMO and their pedantic nit picking is pushing many trialers away from further trialing as they can no longer be bothered with ANKC obedience ,it's trials or the way their Judges judge. Here are a few examples of the type of thing I am talking about.......a Novice entrant and her dog were doing very well in every exercise, the dog working really nicely,lovely heel routine, lovely stand for examination, the same for recall and change of position ,but at the end of the 'workout' exercises the Judge told her she NQ'd on the Stand for examination. When she queried this he told her that in his opinion her hands were not in the right position when she was facing the dog during the examination , her hands were still but flat on her stomach but in the Judges opinion,her hands should have been clasped together in front of her body. ;) Another case.....dog and handler team were on a pass after the workout but failed(?) on the sit stay. The dog was sitting nice and square and about two minutes in to the exercise,the dog rolled on to it's hip.........so the Judge failed the dog saying he "saw daylight" when the dog rolled(?) Now the dog didn't lift ,it DIDN'T break the exercise ,it just rolled from the flat of it's bum on to its hip.......and no body else saw daylight only the Judge. And another case........dog worked really well and on the last exercise the change of position, the dog went down on cue when the handler gave both voice and a very nice hand signal that was in NO way extended........but the judge failed the team because in their opinion the signal was a split second longer than they would like.............and last but not least , another team who worked really well in all exercises but failed in the recall. The dog did every part of the exercise,lovely fast recall, nice straight sit in front and very nice straight finish........but the Judge thought the time frame between the handler calling the dogs name and then the 'come' was not long enough(?) Now there was a gap but in the judges opinion it should have been longer. .....now how nit pickin is that !!!! B****y ridiculous IMO and IMO these things should NOT be a fail but if anything should just be loss of points, even if it is a substantial.......but no way should it be a total fail. I myself am also having trouble in this area of pedantic judging. My dog has a tendancy to adjust himself ,lifting his bum 1cm sometimes 2cms, on the drop on recall and everytime I get "exercise finished". IMO he has NOT broken the stay because he doesn't actually get up, he just shifts his bum ,partly due to anticipation and partly due to anxiety, ........BUT because the Judges are far enough away from him for the recall, they see daylight under him. Now if the Judges were standing closer to the dog, they wouldn't see anything and would probably take a few points off for fidgeting , which is OK by me (the point loss that is) but IMO it is totally unfair, as it is with the others, to fail a dog totally for being a dog...............and that's the crux of the problem IMO with ANKC Judges........they don't allow for dogs being dogs........they are too pedantic in relation to the handlers and in many cases too inconsistant in their judging.

Be a member of as many clubs as you want to ! I am a member of a few and it is great!