WoofnHoof

As the owner of a pedigree rescue dog that I can't prove is a pedigree (tho rescue 'know' that he is as they recognise by looking at him which breeder he came from) I would love to be able to do this. It would be a hands-on way to learn more about the breed that I have come to love as any future dogs I get will be this breed. It would also give me a good reason to actually join the breed club - but as it stands there is no incentive for me to pay up and join as they club doesn't offer much for 'pet owners' and offers nothing for those of us that don't have a bit of paper. They frequently offer quite a bit for dogs of their breed with no papers. Breed rescues are often called upon to take on unpedigreed dogs that have fallen on hard times. Who do you think pays to take on dogs not bred or sold by their own memberships? Not the people who breed or buy them, that's for sure. Seems to me that you need to ask not what the clubs should be doing for people who bought dogs from sources outside their memberships but what as a breed fancier you might be doing to assist your breed of choice. You join a breed club because you love the breed, not because you gain personally from it. Backyard breeders are the scourge of the purebred dog world - what do you really want breed club members to do for those who buy from people who do nothing but line their pockets at the expense of the breed club members love A bit of support for those people who love the breed because of their purchase, regardless of where it came from, and would like to learn more about it and learn where to get their next dog perhaps? It's not like most people who have 'purebred' bybs have deliberately chosen them over registered breeders it's often a result of the visibility of registered breeders, or lack thereof. As well as the perception that registered breeders only breed 'show dogs'. I would have purchased my dog whether he had papers or not because at the time I wasn't aware that there was that much difference, it was only later I was looking into pedigree websites and even then I didn't start serious research until my sibes shunt diagnosis as I wanted to find out whether it was common in sibes*. Heaps of people own bybs and love their breed without knowing the ins and outs of ethical breeding practices. I don't see how a breed club hopes to grow and gain new members if they offer no support for owners of unregistered dogs, passing up an opportunity to educate about breeds and good breeders seems a little wasteful to me. ETA *it's not BTW

As the owner of a pedigree rescue dog that I can't prove is a pedigree (tho rescue 'know' that he is as they recognise by looking at him which breeder he came from) I would love to be able to do this. It would be a hands-on way to learn more about the breed that I have come to love as any future dogs I get will be this breed. It would also give me a good reason to actually join the breed club - but as it stands there is no incentive for me to pay up and join as they club doesn't offer much for 'pet owners' and offers nothing for those of us that don't have a bit of paper. Same here QLD has a husky and mal social club which runs an informal show like this once a year I would love them to meet more often as I couldn't get to it last year, but if I get there this year I will let you know how it goes. I think it's a great incentive

You couldn't be more wrong. The kennel that produces some of Australia's top working Labrador retrievers is the very same kennel that has provided the foundation stock for both Guide Dog and Customs dog breeding programs. National Retrieving Champions and guide dogs are coming out of the very same bloodline. Maybe you need to meet some of those retrieving trial dogs before you write them off as not being able to work with high leve of distractions. They are expected to ignore rabbits they spring on their way to retrieve their birds - and they do. It is that desire to "work" that can be channelled by talented trainers in new directions. Guide dogs, assistance dogs, drug detecting, bomb detecting... these are NOT low drive dogs. Stable temperaments in the field become stable temperaments in busy urban environments as both dogs need to concentrate on the task they have been given. A dog with no drive to do anything is a dog that cannot be trained to do much either. You build focus and effort by rewarding the dog's drive. I'm fine with being wrong It's great that labs and some other breeds can transfer their skills, but again these are in working situations. Many pet dogs don't have a 'job' to do, what happens then? High drive dogs need jobs to do how many jobs are there for them in a pet home? I would like to see what percentage of each litter of each breed go to working homes and what percentage go to pet homes. Either way it's not the working dogs contributing to the pound stats is it? (With the exception of greyhounds of course but that is for different reasons) If the aim of all this is to reduce deaths in pounds then we need to acknowledge that they are being dumped from pet homes therefore there is a problem. I know it's not the fault of the dog or even the breeder, but we may need to accept that the role of the pet dog may not be consistent with the traits of a working dog. Case in point is the tibbie breeder who debarked some dogs, the original role of the tibbie as I understand it was to warn of intruders to the palaces they lived in, therefore this drive to bark which was useful in the past has become a liability in the current situation. I am neither for or againt debarking it's just an example of where a trait that was useful in the past is now working against the breed and the dogs, as many barkers are threatened with baiting from less than understanding neighbours. Even dog people on here have said that some neighbours dogs barking drives them bananas, how do you change that without having to debark while still remaining true to the original purpose of the breed? The tibbie breeder was not accused of neglecting to train her dogs so they would bark less, because its a trait within the breed that can't reliably be trained out, nor is it fair to try to train it out of the dog since it has been deliberately bred into them. I hope I'm making sense here my point is that a dog and a breed is not just one trait, but a dog can be dumped because of one trait.

Sorry I know that this wasn't directed to me I just wanted to point out that there was a thread a while back discussing neuter classes, as well as unregistered pet and amateur classes from memory it was roundly shot down, I seem to recall someone saying they didn't want to see their 'pet' dogs in the ring (actually I think it was a bit harsher than that but you know what I mean). Engaging pet owners is a great idea and IMO the only way to gain strength in numbers but there is a culture here that is very hard to crack. I recall in that thread someone from the UK mentioned that they reguarly hold unregistered pet and amateur shows over there they are a great way for people to get out with their dogs and learn a bit about showing and handling. I'll see if I can track down the thread.

That is often the case with breed classes but most horses are still working animals, their role has changed though, and as a result the breeds are changing. The thoroughbreds in Australia are now being infused with imported warmblood blood due to the change in the eventing format in recent years which has placed more emphasis on technical aspects than on speed and endurance. Showjumpers are importing warmbloods and breeding them with local TBs and heavy horse crosses to create a hardier animal with lots of scope. Dressage horses in Europe are infused with TB (and have been for many years) to add the extra pizazz that the sport has demanded in recent years (Eg the new imported dressage stallion Lauries As is 25%TB). When the sport changes the breeding strategies have to change with them or be left behind. Take out the working aspect and you end up with the kind of animal you see in a lot of QH halter classes, that resembe cattle more than horses because someone decided giant muscles and tiny feet were great, my friend bought an expensive halter bred QH (very famous lines apparently) and it has the worst feet and legs the farrier has ever seen. There is no point breeding a horse according to the sport as it was 20 years ago, for a sport like eventing where the endurance phase has been signficantly reduced, you need to breed for the sport as it is now, which is one where the dressage and showjump phases are now major aspects, in the past if you had a horse that blitzed the cross country you could afford 15 rails in the showjump, that has changed dramatically in the past 10 years. It would be great if dogs could still play a role in the jobs they were bred to do but the truth is many of those jobs no longer exist and I think it's important to breed for the role dogs have now, not the role they had 100 years ago, some breeds can transfer those skills well as you see with labradors excelling as guide dogs, but if someone were breeding a labrador with very high retrieving instincts, it may not be able to suppress those instincts well enough to do it's new job as a guide dog. I suspect that the guide dog breeding programs would be breeding away from the strong retrieving traits because that is a distraction from the new role they have as guides.

Lol steve now you sound like me when I start on about the latest equitation science

OMG I am soooo tempted to send a letter to the PP head honchos and suggest that since they are suddenly so keen on saving the lives of the animals they have sold with congenital defects (which their health guarentee specifically does not cover) they might offer to reimburse the cost of my sibe's shunt op?

Steve thanks for your summaries of the talks, you must make great notes! I think the beagle test you were describing a few pages back is what I was trying to get at earlier re selecting out extreme traits and I obviously wasn't making the point all that well Would have been good to go I think they need to hold the next one in sunny QLD ETA special thanks to everyone who attended and has put their thoughts and reports here!

I'm not really sure how selecting for a slightly more laid back temperament within a breed has suddenly been interpreted as 'dumbing down' or producing 'slothful, unintelligent' dogs? Either way people seem to be attributing this debate as 'what I want', it's not it's ideas being thrown around because in some cases I think a bit of modification wouldn't be the end of the world and might help dogs. Everyone acts like breeds are some sacred unchangable and unchanging gift from god when in fact they are a human construct, they have changed and are changing and will change in the future. Breeds were developed by humans, for humans, it's logical that the purpose and the nature of breeds will change as their role in society changes.

When those homes have no understanding of the dog's origin and needs, it is the HOME that is unsuitable for the dog, not vice versa. If you don't want a dog that wants to run, then don't buy a Sibe.. it's not that hard to grasp is it? You want to change a breed that you admit you did no research into before acquiring because the dog is not a perfect fit for you. The solution is perfectly simple - find a more suitable breed. The perfect dog already exists for those who choose not to educate themselves before acquiring an animal that may be a part of their lives for up to 20 years. It looks like this: What's next? A smooth coated poodle for those who didn't bother to find out that the breed needs to be groomed? Re the bolded point I did not say that my dog is not perfect for me, my example of his behaviour if I don't keep up with his requirements is to point out that there are some aspects (like escapology) which do not necessarily need to remain in the breed until the end of time. I don't see why this is any different to any other artificial selection that has happened in the past, dogs within breeds have been selected for this and that trait for the show ring and for work what's the difference between selecting towards a more laid back temperament for pet homes? Since everyone seems to cope with the fact that working lines and show lines can be like chalk and cheese what difference does it make if someone wants to breed towards a 'pet' line?

Not necessarily more trainable there is no doubt that sibes are trainable it's more the drive to run which makes them great sled dogs but less suitable for the homes they find themselves in. I wouldn't pay much attention to what people say when they surrender their dogs either, my sister surrendered her malt crosses to the RSPCA and told them they were moving and couldn't take them - translation - they bark too much and grooming is too hard.

It's way past my bedtime but before I sign off I just want to point out that I love my dog, I love my breed and I love the way they are but I also can see where there can be changes made for the good of the huge amount of dogs in the pounds. When I say majority I'm just guessing based on the huge numbers that are in pounds, my local pound had 7 in at once when I inquired a while back. At the end of the day it's too many dogs in pounds and I would rather we looked at all avenues available to us in working to solve the problem, if a breeder can advertise a laid back line of sibes and take some of the market share from the bybs then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

There are already less challenging Spitz breeds around. If you don't want to deal with Sibe personality, buy an Elkhound or a Lapphund. Or go to a breeder that knows their dogs backwards and ask them to select you a less full on pup. Or get a more layback adult. That's the thing, I like sibes, I don't want any other spitz. I don't know how many pups in a litter of traditionally bred sibes would be 'less full on' I guess that is what I am saying, it might be more useful to encourage breeding to favour the less full on type which may be less likely to end up in pounds?

Are you seriously saying that we should breed any working drive out of our dogs in case you break your leg? Right, of course, stuff having dogs that fit the breed standard or can do what they were bred to do as long as it makes it easier for Joe Blow to live with What were they bred to do huski? They were bred to pull sleds in the arctic, they were bred to go for hundreds of kilometers, they were bred to be self-sufficient. None of these traits are relevant today, lowering drive does not equal eliminating drive completely. You don't need to reinvent the wheel you just select for dogs with slightly more easy going temperaments. Not sure if you are referring to my posts but I'm talking about selecting for milder working drives within breeds, not outside of them.

My sibe came from a byb but he's every inch a sibe, when I did start reading up on sibes it was like they were talking about my dog personally I never said the problem is the dogs, I'm saying it's a combination of less work for working dogs and a different environment they have to live in than the one they were bred for. It would take a longer time to filter through but don't you think that if someone less prepared for the extreme aspects of sibe characteristcs were to buy a sibe it would be better to offer them one which was not so challenging? Like I said before, I love my sibe and I have never regretted getting him, I may get another down the track but just because I love my boy doesn't mean I think their traits are 100% suitable for modern life and the majority of the homes they find themselves in. It's not like the dogs themselves really care how well they represent the breed standard, only humans care about that.

I didn't research my breed, should I not have a dog? Perhaps if you had, you'd not be saying things like this: Good on you for rising to the challenge but you know better than most the reason why Huskies end up in pounds. If you don't want a dog that climbs the walls if it misses a day of exercise, don't buy a Husky next time. If you'd bought from a good breeder, you'd have been informed about what owning one entails. But then I wouldn't have my dog who I love more than anything, my life would be so much poorer without my sibe. His life wouldn't be any less fulfilling if he were less inclined to trash stuff after a day off, if I break my leg and can't walk him don't you think it would be better if he weren't so highly driven? My next dog probably wont be a sibe because I want to see what it's like to have recall lol, but I would never rule out getting another one later on. There is a lot more to a sibe than just high energy levels, there are people here who have lower energy sibes, how is it bad to breed towards that? I didn't research my breed, should I not have a dog? Surely you don't recommend people just get any dog they like the look of, regardless of whether their choice means the dog may be discarded in the pound because it is unsuitable for their circumstances. No I don't recommend that, but that doesn't mean that I don't think tweaking the working drive of some breeds would be beneficial to the future of the breed and the individual dogs in the long term.

I didn't research my breed, should I not have a dog?

There are lines of beags out there that have more scent drive than others, just as you get with many breeds. If the average owner can't cope with a scent hound they shouldn't buy one. Surely that is an easier message to work on getting across than trying to change a breed which has been around for hundreds of years? Breeding out scent drive in a scent hound is buggering up the breed - I'm not interested in owning a generic dog thanks. The answer is making breeders accountable for the dogs they breed, we shouldn't ruin a breed purely because we want to make it easier for a larger group of people to own them. What a message to send out to potential dog owners - stuff responsible ownership, we'll just breed one you can leave in the backyard and forget about I am seriously blown away that anyone would think drastically changing our breeds is a good alternative to encouraging people to do their research and be responsible dog owners :D ETA: I must be the only Sibe owner who finds my dog a pleasure and quite easy to live with There are a lot of sibes that are escape artists regardless of how much interaction they get, how would toning that down ruin the whole breed? Of course those of us who still have sibes haven't found them that much of a problem but there are lots of sibes in pounds and anything that reduces that situation is a good thing IMO. Very easy to say that heaps of people shouldn't own them but who should and what do you do with all the excess sibes bred with no homes to go to? Should breeders breed just enough to keep the breed going and fill a few select orders and euth the rest? Personally, living alone and having a few things on the go it can be difficult to keep up with the sheer amount of exercise and stimulation my boy needs to have to keep him occupied, it wouldn't hurt to have a dog who could cope with a few days off without trashing the house out of boredom. It's not like he doesn't get a lot of interaction, it's just that some days it's not enough for him. Just because I can deal with the consequences of a few days of boredom doesn't mean it's the ideal situation for a breed which is largely unchanged since it's sledding days. Honestly there have been a lot of drastic and fundamental changes to breeds over the years, I understand that it's difficult to contemplate changes that may impact on the essence of the breed but it's been done in the past and if it's in the best interests of dogs then it deserves serious consideration not just dismissing out of fear of the 'generic dog'.

It's also what makes them the breed of choice for AQIS. What makes the Beagle an attractive breed for many people is the affability deliberately bred into a dog kept and hunted in a pack. It's the fact that he IS a scent hound that give him his character. If you don't want a scenthound then don't buy one. You don't need to stuff up a breed just so any idiot can own one. Beagles are trainable. The simple fact of the matter is the many owners with "problem" beagles don't bother to. The issues with many dogs are owner created. Start by changing the owner's behaviour, not buggering up the breed. AQIS is a tiny market if they want high scent drive maybe they can have their own lines? Lowering scent drive wouldn't exactly 'bugger up the breed', since there are many many traits which make a beagle a beagle the scent drive is only one part but it's a part which can make it more difficult for the average owner. Huskies are trainable too but that doesn't mean they magically morph into 'easier' dogs when you put a bit of training into them. Since they land in the pounds quite frequently, then for their sake I'd rather the breed was 'tweaked' since that is a far more realistic solution than the one in which humans suddenly start to be accountable and research their purchases

Isn't that what dobe breeder's did a little while go when they had a lot of bad press? I guess it didn't hurt them but the stigma is still there --Lhok I don't know but I've met a few lovely dobes I would love to know if their presence in pounds decreased after the changes were made but I suppose we don't have the data?

It may end up being about breed survival in the end, after all if you breed every beagle to have a high scent drive according to the original purpose of the breed (which is pretty much 99% redundant) and that is what makes them so challenging and ultimately what lands them in pounds. You can say to prospective owners if you can't handle it don't get that breed but where does it leave the breed in the end? How many 'ideal' beagle owners exist? How relevant is the scenting instinct to most pets? Some working breeds can adapt to being easy going pets but many breeds with strong working instincts are going to prove challenging for a lot of owners and the pound stats suggest that most owners aren't that committed. I love the husky breed, I love their independence and I love the fact that they are challenging but I know that many many people are not suited to owning huskies, I doubt I'd be able to cope with more than one. Even Dr Harry says 'you have to be a special person to own a siberian husky' so how many people are 'special' (or should that be thpeshal? lol) enough to own a husky and is that enough to keep the breed alive? I think what breed fanciers will have to decide is whether it is worth compromising on the historical signficance of certain traits, in order to keep the breed going in the future. There is no need to 'create' a generic dog as they all have different qualities but IMO some of the working breeds who are mostly going to be pets couldn't hurt to be bred towards a slightly less 'challenging' temperament.

When I was googling for the cost of the op yesterday most of what I read suggested that it was thought to be inherited. I imagine that it would be similar to liver shunt in that it can occur spontanously in some dogs but can be genetic in others?

I know someone with an ANKC papered dog (on limit reg) which was bought from a pet store, he's a nice healthy dog though. I was curious that they thought the op would cost $10k since my dogs' complicated shunt op was $5k I went looking for cost comparisons and found this page on rescued with love which suggests that the $10k figure may be a bit of an exaggeration since they were quoted $3k.

Interesting isn't it? While animal conservation organisations the world over are encouraging local people to learn to understand and view live wild animals as valuable resources (eco tourism assists here) PETA's solution to the human/animal issue is total disengagement. Intensive animal farming disengages the farmer from the stock in a way no other system of animal raising ever has. What we don't know we can't value. What we don't value we don't care for. What we don't care for, we don't preserve. The animal welfare issue as I see it will only be resolved by people learning about and understanding animals, not ignoring and isolating them. That goes as much for dogs as it does for orangutans. There is a small proportion of damaged people who cannot care but for many others it is ignorance of the value that animals can have that stops them from caring. Anyway I look at PETA I think they are deluded. I honestly wonder how many of their leadership even LIKE animals. Working on the "familiarity breeds contempt" adage, maybe its not a bad thing PETA are coming here. People can see their lunacy up close and personal. Yeah it was really interesting trying to dig up information on the issues that PETA campaigns on and they aren't big on education as long as you can rant and rave and post gory pictures that's enough for them. The funny thing is while traditional mulesing is quite traumatic for lambs, research has shown that clips are very effective in reducing the trauma and pain suffered and yet PETA are uncompromising and are against the use of clips as well. The negative aspects of their campaigns are so evident when you try to gather information as a student and no one wants to talk to you or help your research because of the fear these idiots have generated in the industries I heard Prof Clive Phillips speaking about his research around Australia talking to cattle and sheep producers and he commented about the difficulty in getting the farmers to trust him enough to talk about animal welfare, it really highlights the damage that has been done.

BT50!