WoofnHoof

No I was more responding to others who had suggested there were other species involved. I put a link to that article if it is the one you're thinking of earlier in the thread. Thanks I must have missed it (at least at a concious level, obviously my subconcious remembered! )

I must say I agree with this. It has always been difficult for me thinking along the evolution form wolves line when I look at Pugs. They are so far removed from wolves it isn't funny. I am more interested in the modern dog and the theories around them. Ditto to what you said about poodles and Whippets. Yes, prey drive is there but lots of other behaviours have been modified. I think also you need to factor in the impact of socialisation and training on domestic dogs - that also modifies behaviours. My dogs are a pack but they don't have to defend territory or feel the need to run off or kill strange dogs. Depends, the behavioural study I mentioned showed a direct relationship betweent the neotonisation of the domestic animal and the various developmental stages of the juvenile wolf. Putting this in a practical setting it was useful information for me because sometimes I've observed that a 'language barrier' exists between my sibe and my chi, my sibe uses more adult wolf behaviours which are far more subtle and so aren't picked up by the chi who is several developmental stages 'younger'. This can be a useful measure when dealing with individuals who use very different behaviours but which are behaviours which have been identified in the juvenile wolf.

We don't know whether the fences were an issue, it is something that occured to me upon seeing the photo of the fence and the leg injury in later photos, we don't know whether the carer was told about the fences or not. We don't even know if the carer was told about any problems, for all we know the RSPCA didn't authorise her to keep treating it. Perhaps they shouldn't have allowed her to foster it in the first place and maybe they did tell her she doesn't really say what sort of relationship she had with the RSPCA or what the arrangements were regarding foster/treatment/adoption. My heart goes out to her too but my head wonders why she kept getting a vet out to a horse for 7 months without making any move to formally adopt it given there appears to have been no hard and fast agreement that she could have the mare. It's possible they simply got the vet's contractor to dispose of the body, a lot of people don't realise the expense and regulations surrounding burial of a horse.

It's fairly common in stabled horses there are a number of theories on how it starts could be boredom could be gastric ulcers as a result of high grain diets (why it's often seen in racehorses etc) could be both. Once it's become an ingrained habit it can be very hard to dissuade the horse from doing it because it gives them a bit of a 'high', ie releases opiates, it's also believed to be a way of temporarily relieving pain in the gastric ulcer theory. It's hard to say whether the colic was exacerbated by moving, colicky horses are moved to vets for treatment all the time, given the colic was recurring at the carers property it's hard to say whether the horse wouldn't have died at some point in any case, and can depend very much on the underlying cause which hasn't been clearly identified. Colic can go from mild to severe and potentially fatal before your eyes.

So saying that fencing is inappropriate for a TB is comparable to the PB situation? Puh leaze! You've worked with TBs I get it who hasn't? They are different to other breeds saying they are no different to other horse breeds is like saying all dog breeds are the same. Either way I still wouldn't put a full size horse of any breed in that fencing, you might get away with it with a pony but even then it's not horse fencing it's sheep fencing and once the RSPCA formally adopted the horse out they may have been found liable. Who knows maybe the carer was planning to chase the RSPCA for reimbursement for the money she had spent, perhaps they seized the horse to prevent her incurring more vet bills for a horse that was technically their responsibility? What happened to it's leg that required bandaging? Thing is we only have one side of the story the RSPCA has admitted there was miscommunication due to staff turnover at the time, I agree that seizing and putting the horse down without consulting the carer was inappropriate but that is all we can really deduce from the information we have.

Centitout your response may have made sense had my question been: "how many TBs have you seen hurt themselves on good fences?". But it wasn't the question was "would you rehome a TB to a place with those fences?". It's like saying it's perfectly ok to rehome a sibe to a place with 2 foot fences. ETA since the horse's leg was bandaged in later photos it suggests something happened, perhaps the RSPCA didn't authorise the continued treatment of the horse?

I did get other vets, none of them suggested encysted strongyles they simply asked if the horse had been wormed (which he had). What many people don't know is that there are only two wormers available (equest and panacur) which can kill the encysted stage, the rest only target the other life stages once they form cysts they can't touch them. I suggested the fencing may have been an issue - if you were a responsible rescuer would you rehome a TB to a place with fences like that? It's akin to rehoming a husky to a place with 2 foot fences I also suggested that the recurring illness may have been an issue with finalising the adoption, again I ask would you rehome an animal with a potentially fatal recurring condition? Whether the colic was 'mild' is a matter of opinion and since it warranted a monthly vet visit I'd be more inclined to think it was fairly serious.

I thought ligons were sterile? I do agree that the species concept is beginning to show signs of wear and tear in this day and age but essentially humans are only applying selection pressures to certain traits and so really they aren't that far from the wolf, particularly when you consider that some of the traits that we are applying that selection pressure to are also wolf traits. There has obviously been some divergence of the two since domestication first began but there is nothing to convince me that they are not essentially the same species or that there were any other species infuencing them, many species of domesticated animals are vastly different from their ancestral species it doesn't mean there were other species involved in their development. It's akin to saying that other equids are involved in the development of the modern equus caballus - there are enough significant differences between the species to discount the possibility. It's that very artificial selection which I believe has isolated the species from it's peers and other species alike. I *think* there is a DNA study comparing wolf DNA with certain breeds but I *know* I have a behavioural study floating around in my files which does indicate that behaviourally at least among the breeds analysed the siberian husky is the closest in behaviour to the wolf. The cavalier was identified as having the least number of behaviours in common with wolves. Essentially it was proposed that animals whose morphology most closely resembles the wolf also shares the most wolf behaviours. It is thought to correlate closely with neotonisation, which is the tendency for domesticated animals to resemble the juveniles of the original species both in behaviour and in appearance with larger heads and behaviour in accordance with various developmental stages of juvenile wolves. edited to fix shoddy punctuation.

I have a horse here who was inspected by several vets (I lost count of exactly how many) none of whom suspected encysted strongyles, the research I did at the time suggests it is missed a lot. From what I can tell the RSPCA still owned the horse since the adoption hadn't been finalised so it wasn't a typical seizure just a return to the shelter for pre-adoption vet check. She stated she wanted to bury the horse on her property but who was going to get it there? It's easy to say she wanted to bury it afterwards but if she was struggling with the adoption fee I doubt she would have found the money to transport the deceased animal and have it buried on her property - granted it would have been appropriate to have given her the option but since the horse technically wasn't hers at that point it's all dependent on whoever was in charge knowing the situation in full and some aspects of the reports suggests that turnover of staff resulted in miscommunication about the situation with this horse. It's difficult to know for sure but if the RSPCA willingly adopts out an ill animal even with full disclosure it's not beyond the realms of possiblity that it could bite them in the ass big time, what if the woman had suddenly decided she wanted the RSPCA to reimburse her veterinary costs? I'm sure that people involved in rescue here would be iffy about rehoming an animal with ongoing and unresolved health issues, not saying they wouldn't do it but they would have to tread with extreme caution when doing so. I'm glad your horses are good with fences, my experience with red headed TBs suggests they don't know when they are on a good thing they see a fence and look for new and interesting ways to injure themselves on it! At the end of the day it is a very sad situation for the horse and the fosterer, but I'd rather judge on a case by case basis rather than on the basis of other cases in other areas. This happened in Townsville, if there are other issues with the Townsville RSPCA by all means share them and perhaps there is a systemic issue at play but I don't necessarily believe that every RSPCA shelter is staffed by animal rights loonies getting their orders directly from the mother ship.

I agree with you - assuming this is in fact the whole story.

She looked after the horse for 7 months & had monthly Vet checks, there is NO reason for that scum organisation to take her away for Vet evaluation, they just had to ask the treating Vet. I can't believe people still defend them. I'm not defending them I'm looking at possibilities. I haven't seen pics of the horse when it was originally fostered out so I can't comment on whether it's condition is good or not in comparison, I do know that fencing is inappropriate though. Lots of vets miss encysted strongyles too so getting a second opinion about the health of the horse could be a perfectly reasonable expectation.

Jed maybe they were waiting for her to fix her fences? btw regular worming does not mean the horse didn't have a burden of encysted strongyles which are implicated in severe colic cases in horses which do not look remotely wormy.

That's how a lot of horse's bodies are disposed of Robbi unless someone is willing and able to either bury it in a way that complies with council regs (on a property well away from residences and with due consideration for water table levels etc) or pay for cremation that's the only other method of disposal that is legal for a large animal that has been euthed. Say the horse did get colic again (which is likely since it was a recurring issue) and had to be put down or rack up more huge bills which the RSPCA would have been liable for since the adoption had not been finalised, who was going to pay for the transport of the body to the foster carer's property for burial? Who was going to pay for the backhoe to dig the hole? It's entirely likely the carer was told the horse was buried by someone in admin who just assumes that horses are buried like any other animal when in fact they often aren't. I agree that the RSPCA handled it badly and shouldn't have taken the horse (although the leg injury in later photos suggests a further injury had been sustained which may have prompted the seizure - perhaps fencing was an issue???) and they should have contacted the carer when the colic recurred to see if she would be willing to go ahead with treatment, but given the recurring nature of the illness it's presumptuous to suggest the animal would have lived a long and happy life had it remained with the carer.

Depends on whether the horse was colicing at the time and was moved to the shelter to be close to the vets. After 7 months of care the mare's condition still wasn't that crash hot so it seems there may have been an underlying issue causing the colic which may not have been addressed. Quick question: If a foster carer for a doggy rescue rehabbed a dog with their own funds (regardless of whether clearance to spend that money was given by the rescue) would they be allowed to keep it with no adoption fee?

My dogs have front ones they don't cause any problems they lay pretty flat against the leg but I did get my sibes rear one's removed at desexing as they stuck out at right angles so were an accident waiting to happen as he's pretty active.

As a first time breeder (ok it's a horse and not a dog but still...) I couldn't imagine not loving my baby for it's entire life.

I'm glad there's a chi going....representing the smallies. When my tibbies are told to 'Sit' on the polished wood floors, they walk across the room to a mat or a cushion.....& then do their 'Sit' in bottomly comfort. Mine sort of lowers himself carefully down then when his bum touches the floor he quickly jumps up again!

If I'm still around I might be able to come I have a red sibe, a fawn chi and a cream vallhund, only the sibe actually knows sit and drop though the chi sort of knows sit but if the surface is too cold for his delicate bum he wont sit!

MDBA Pacers 349 transmitter Rd Wooroolin Queensland 4680. Thanks, Steve. And I urge my fellow dinosaurs to get their envelopes & stamps out for a good cause. What is this strange language you speak???

Yay I can actually contribute this time as I haven't spent all my pay yet

I think it's often those of us who have learned the hard way who would opt for the full bloods and fluids, I wouldn't have even thought of it prior to my boy getting sick and the last thing my vets thought he would have was a liver shunt so because it wasn't routine it didn't get done. It's easy to say with hindsight I would much rather have paid an extra couple of hundred at desexing than the several thousand in emergency treatment and diagnostics when he crashed.

I rent what I do is go to a secondhand place with measurements in hand and buy a screen door, cut a dog sized hole in it and replace the existing door with that. A door without a key is usually about $100 max and a new lock is about $15, it's cheaper than replacing glass and heaps easier.

My chi does that he will be curled up on your lap one minute then all of a sudden he walks off and the smell hits you Mine are definetly stinkier after they get tinned food, they are rarely fed tinned but whenever they get it I know I'm in for a couple of days of feral stench.

I wish I'd gotten bloods done prior to desexing my husky he wasn't a really sick pup just a bit underweight and had intermittent diahorrea which myself and the vets put down to a sensitive tummy. Had I got the bloods done the liver problem would have been caught earlier and saved a lot of stress and heartache (and expense!). Personally I think blood tests should be standard and not an option (at the time it wasn't even offered as an option!) because it's better to be safe than sorry.

It's sort of lucky that I'm allergic to cats otherwise I would want one but my husky would want to eat it