WoofnHoof

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Wow those are shocking stats

Interesting! Lots of back and forth according to the write up. Would also be interesting to see how common those issues are in the breed, displaysia can’t be detected that early although the parents can be tested, can they test for the airway issue in pups?

Sad but true

I agree but I don’t even think it needs to involve cross breeding, many of the desired traits already exist within currently available breeds, they just haven’t been strongly selected for. The fact that conformation has changed so drastically within existing breeds in such a short period of time suggests that better outcomes could easily be achieved in a similarly short space of time without having to outcross at all. Of course you can’t put a non/low-shedding coat into a breed that doesn’t have it without crossing but you can certainly select calmer, more trainable temperaments within the existing non-shedding breeds. You can select for sIze quite easily, that has already been done in existing poodle breeds. Ditto for health issues especially with genetic testing easy and affordable. Behaviour is not so simple but not impossible, low drive dogs pop up in working lines all the time, there just needs to be the will to select strongly and consistently for those traits with a view to move the breed towards suitability as a pet rather than work or show.

Yes I think the show influence is a whole other can of worms, but it only accounts for the last 30-40 years of breeding. In post war times there is no way people would breed dogs that need C-sections every time or must be kept in air conditioning. I think removing the “working” aspect of breeds enables fashion to shape breeds, most of the stud books have been closed for over 100 years so it’s not cross breeding that is responsible for the enhancement of extreme traits, even in breeds that diverged into pets a long time ago. Once you take away the functional aspect and purely have looks as the focus the rest goes out the window. There are “halter bred” quarter horses that are unrideable because they’ve been bred to stand and shuffle around a show ring, it’s extremely sad. Having said that looks are also a big part of the oodle branding, the fluffy teddy bear look is part of their appeal and that is also part of the reason that they too can have health issues. When their function is heavily based around looks then there is potential for other traits to be left behind, just as with other breeds and lines.

I think the issue isn’t money, new breeds have been developed in the past to do a job and help the owner make a living whether that’s herding, hunting, guarding etc. Breeding for purpose doesn’t mean it wasn’t profitable at one point in the breed’s development. I think the issue is that there is a lack of clear direction and ethical behaviour when it comes to oodles. Putting two different breeds together does not a new breed make, there needs to be a clear development of desired traits to ensure consistency. The “job description” for these dogs is as a generic pet dog, there is no clear standard or goal. When research was done into “the perfect pet dog for Australia” people identified things like non-shedding, friendly, low drive etc. These are all traits that exist to a degree in existing pure-breeds but aren’t marketed as such to the public. Marketing is everything in this day and age, old fashioned perceptions about poodles mean they are not first choice despite having *most* of the traits people want. Here comes the controversial bit: Existing pure breeds could easily be modified to meet a pet market. Before anyone says that would ruin the breed there are already many breeds which have distinct show and working lines. Show lines and working lines can look and behave very differently and it’s not the end of the world, and it’s not blasphemy to think that this could also be done for “pet” lines. If breeds never changed we wouldn’t have any differences between working and show because breeds were originally developed to work and do a specific job not trot round a show ring. I think there is also a perception in the pure breed world that pet dogs are inferior, not “up to scratch” and therefore they are cheaper than show dogs. Like it or not people associate price with quality, that’s why they happily fork over thousands for oodles. Price historically has at least implied quality, add some clever marketing that plays on existing perceptions and you can see how the market and therefore the public has responded. People still believe a cross gives you “the best of both worlds” despite logic suggesting that it might also give the worst of both. Look at the success of organisations such as Peta, we know their goal is to sever all human ties with animals yet the general public has no idea and just thinks they are a welfare group. It’s all because of very clever marketing. It’s completely unethical but it works because they target and enhance existing perceptions for their own gain, much like many oodle breeders. The problem with pure breeds is that it’s much more difficult to fight deeply ingrained prejudices. edited for typos

Well I finally joined the WSS club! Took a while lol My girl Ellie is from a ANKC breeder in Qld and she is just over 5 months old. Observations so far: Velcro dog to the max! Do not get a Swiss if you value your alone time in the dunny, if she can’t come in with you she will lay down outside the door waiting for you to come out. Loud! She has discovered her big girl voice and it’s set off the decibel warning on my smartwatch so look out for accelerated hearing loss lol! So strange after having the husky who was talkative but hardly ever actually barked. Active! My husky was quite sick as a pup (liver shunt) so I didn’t get to really experience the full-on adolescent stages and most of my little dogs have been adult rescues so this girl is full of beans in comparison. No sleeping in. Ever. Luckily I have paddocks full of rabbits here to burn off some puppy energy. Great to take for walks although can’t seem to go in a straight line (that’s a win for the husky at least he would go straight lol!). Grubby! OMG after having clean freak husky who didn’t even like to go outside if the grass was a bit wet and cleaned himself obsessively like a cat, this girl absolutely loves to be filthy! Mud, dead things, pretty much anything she can get into that will make her dirty is her goal, bonus points if she can find it straight after a wash :D Overall thoughts: Stunning dog, loads of fun, loads of work (at the youngster stage anyway) but I wouldn’t have it any other way

It’s such a great concept and certainly has loads of scope for expansion and refinement. There have been a number of studies now looking at the various cues that dogs use to communicate with us, such as pointing behaviour and so on. There have been a couple of studies where they trained horses to use boards with symbols on them to indicate whether they wanted to wear a rug or not, so now that people are learning how to train animals more effectively using these tools the potential is massive in gaining insight into how they think. Of course humans tend to extrapolate to match our own inner monologue which may not be accurate but certainly simple concepts should be well within reach, it’s just refining the methodology IMO. I would think there are cheaper options as the boards were originally modelled off the commonly used assistive technology used to help disabled people communicate, so there may be options that are less expensive and still usable out there?

I agree many of us have crosses and dogs of unknown breeding and love them just as much. I don't think it necessarily implies a bias when we state that a cross will likely not be ideal in this situation, just the simple fact of predictability of traits. Given that many breeders of crosses like to promote those crosses as "best of both worlds" it would be remiss to fail to point out the genetic gambling aspect. If the OP were an experienced owner with heaps of latitude in their situation and willingness to accommodate a variety of behavioural and physiological traits then I think people would direct them to purebreds *and* rescues (which are often crosses). It's not promoting crosses because directing people to a cross in rescue is not encouraging or promoting the breeding of them. Interested to hear thoughts on this though as it's an interesting point!

It's a very expensive exercise for sure! I assume your little one will have an extra hepatic shunt which has a much higher success rate than intra. Best of luck for the surgery!

That's really sad isn't it? I know some horse breeders prefer to restrict what is being bred from their lines if they have spent a lot of money importing sires etc but it's only in very niche markets IME. In this day and age it's easy enough to import whatever breeding you want so it's only restricting a small subset of small scale breeders. Most are ecstatic to see progeny doing well, representing the breed and the lines. We aren't playing for sheep stations out there.

I find it ridiculous personally. If someone wants to have a crack at showing why shouldn't they? If the dog isn't fabulous it won't blow anyone away but they might have a nice day out. If the animals are such poor quality that breeders are embarrassed by them then I would question the quality of their breeding in general. Omitting the few with glaring faults there really shouldn't be anything stopping most people going to the odd dog show, they aren't taking it to crufts for crying out loud. What people consider show quality can vary greatly anyway, realistically if the dog meets the standard it should be of sufficient quality to represent its breed and whether it wins is up to the judge. I remember years ago a similar discussion here with a breeder stating "I don't want to see my shit in the ring". I've only known a few breeders in the horse world who won't register certain progeny and they are the *least* ethical for several reasons. Everyone else is quite happy to see their animals out and about. They are ambassadors for their breed and for the stud even if they aren't perfect according to a show judge. Anyone who shows knows you take take the same animal to one judge and have it win everything and another judge won't even give it a look so it's not the end of the world if it doesn't win. Despite this showing can be great for teaching animals manners and patience, educating owners and spectators about breeds and conformation, socialising dog and human (as long as your fellow showies aren't wankers!) and just generally getting out and about. The gatekeepers need to chill out IMO. Where is the harm in taking pride in the animals you have produced whether they are some arbitrary definition of "show quality" or not? As the OP says, anyone who is going to breed outside of the regs will ignore LR and so it's really just ANKC vs ANKC breeders shooting themselves in the foot.

First thing to think about is the working origin of the breed. Those breeds have been developed over centuries for herding, chasing sheep and cattle all day every day. Work that is both mentally and physically stimulating. That is why they are popular for dog sports which are very high energy and require loads of training. Think about a worst case scenario that could happen. Kids get bored or move out. Work gets busy. It rains for weeks and no one wants to take the dog out for a long walk. Do you still want the dog if the things you hope for don't eventuate? If so what do you see the dog doing while you are working and the kids are absent? If it's purely companionship there are several more suitable breeds who will be happy with short walks and plenty of attention at home. Re shedding most dogs will shed you just have to deal with that but you can minimise it with short coated breeds like danes and greyhounds. Alternatively you can go with a low shedding breed but it will need regular clipping. Barking can be influenced by breed, again think about the history and whether a dog barks as part of its job, most herders do. The rest is largely behavioural and individual, dogs bark for various reasons, sometimes to alert (if you are in a busy area with lots of people going past this might be important) sometimes because they are bored, sometimes they just like the sound of their own voice. A good breeder will help guide you as far as their breed goes as they know them best. Crosses are the least predictable option, as said above it is generally not recommended for people who have a specific set of requirements, you want predictable traits. If you are keen on rescue a greyhound could be an option to explore via a reputable group who performs temperament testing and suitable vetting.