Clicking Mad

Tex, figure 8 "through"

no. 3

This is Texas in a walking "through", supposed to be a series, this is number 2, following will be 3.

See how these go.

My diggers are pretty good with this. Jamie, the smallest, I've got a walking weave, whereas I've found Texas and Chester it seems better to do the figure 8 weave, although they do do it, it's just the steps I have to make are too big, or my legs are too small. One thing, with the walking weave, all my dogs tend to overwalk, I mean they get too far ahead and have to turn back a bit to go through again. I could either teach them to walk in really wide loops to keep at my leg width pace, or I would actually prefer a straighter weave line if that makes sense - any tips? Sam. ps: will post action photos next week if I can.

I started this trick with Texas at Pets As Therapy. We used a towel (big and obvious). We used it by placing the towel on a chair and have the dog put their paws on the towel so as to give the not so mobile residents in nursing homes a closer look and within reach for a pat. All that was required for this to work, was by patting the towel/on chair, and up they hop with their front paws (if you choose the right kinda chair with the right kinda dog they should not be encouraged to jump up on it completely. I was using a dining chair and there is no way Texas thinks he can jump on that ) Some of the dogs required a little luring help, maybe with the hand targetting. But if you don't want this kind of behaviour developing, I'd just stick to bigbums method. I just thought I'd add an alternative method that might be useful. I taught my other two via the method as above with an ice cream lid. Initially Jamie girl avoided the lid completely. I really had to position myself and it in a way so she would put just one paw on it by walking past. It was all about positioning. She is also quite receptive to where I'm looking, so a bit of staring at it, a quick look at her, then a big stare at the ice cream lid and she caught on pretty quick. If you have an inquisitive dog like Chester, it should be easy, it's like he's asking "what is that funny thing on the ground over there?" and before you know it he's all over it, click and treat. All 3 of mine now pounce at it from a small distance on the "paws" cue. Sam.

I'm really sorry to hear about your pet sheep Berryl. :rolleyes: She sounds like such a wonderful and smart little sheep. She didn't deserve to go in such a horrid way. My sincerest sympathy.

Bigbum, Yes I've been slack as far as planning goes, too keen for my own (and my dogs) good. I know this !!!! I'm not doing very well at going slowly :rolleyes: I'm just starting to realise that my dogs do learn at different paces, and trying to accomodate my training to their needs. I've been a little blind to how they have been responding individually. They do pretty good considering. I video taped (I only just got a video camera) the first attempt at closing the cupboard door, I'll try and explain what I did and what the dogs did: Texas: I sorta indicated with my hand at the cupboard door which was open a crack. He followed my hand, and once he kinda got what I meant he pawed the door and it closed. There must have been a lot of body language going on 'cause I really don't know how he knew what I meant. He got a click reward as the door closed. I went up in criteria too quickly and opened the door wider, he pushed the door further open after a little investigation inside the cupboard, then I got him around to the back of the door and just kinda encouraged him to keep trying as he was pawing at it (btw: I didn't mind the idea of pawing rather than using his nose to close the door). I closed it a little more and he pawed and it closed and he got a click/reward. I did this a couple more times, just verbally encouraging his attempts until the door closed and he got the click/reward. Then again another raise in criteria, I opened the adjacent cupboard door a crack. This was easier I think because of his positioning being behind the opening, easier for his paw to close it rather than open it further (if you know what I mean), and he closed it first go. Big praise, click/reward. A couple of times he got a little frustrated (due to the low reward ratio) and offered a few other behaviours like bow and wave. I cued a few of these as well so I could give him a reward. Jamie: I stupidly went into it as a continuation of Texas' session. She was initially pretty confused. I tried to get her to touch my hand in front of the cupboard door, but the execution was really really bad on my part, I know I did this wrong when I watched the video. What I was doing was holding my hand in front of the cupboard, cueing a "touch" and then quickly moving the hand away so that her nose would close the door, but she just followed my hand. I should have kept my hand there, and with the touch, pushed the door with my hand, and click/reward as the door closed. At the time I didn't even realise. She jumped up on the bench, and offered other behaviours, and eventually got the right one, of pawing the door closed click/reward. Then I tried to get a couple of repetitions in at the same criteria (that is the door only open a crack). She did better when she was working quickly. I had the food rewards in the dining room so as I'd click and go and get the reward (only a couple of steps - I have a very small kitchen), give her the food and quickly go back to open the kitchen cupboard door a crack she would run up behind and almost slam herself into the door and close it. This happened a couple of times. Chester: Tried to get a nose touch. I was all over the place, trying to get a "touch" away from the door, near the door. He thought the inside of the cupboard was much more interesting and kept opening it wider to get a better look. I suppose I kinda expected him to give the same response as Texas and Jamie, just move my hand around in the general area and he'll get it, but of course, it wasn't that simple. Then I tried targetting a piece of paper and rewarded for any nose touch of the paper that was attached to the door. I'd also rubbed the cupboard with a bit of food, and he licked it off. Then I changed again and did the same thing with the touch my hand and close the door as I'd initially done with Jamie, I did learn there and I kept my hand in front of the door so I finished off with a couple of touchs of my hand and my hand would push the cupboard door closed, click/reward. He walked off a couple of times, during the session. Upon viewing the video, giving a perspective from his point of view, I can see why he was so confused. Another thing I thought of after was the fact that the kitchen isn't a place I normally train the dogs. They aren't really encouraged to even go into the kitchen, let alone do anything in there. My reward ratio for all the dogs was too low. All these things on top of my lack of a plan. Texas is happy to try new things. Jamie if encouraged enough will do things she thinks is a little out of the ordinary, and if she gets rewarded for it once she will happily repeat it. Chester needs to be rewarded all the time, almost, so would probably do better by shaping his looking at the door, click/reward, sniff the door, click/reward, lick the door, click/reward, etc etc. He needs the extra incentive. The next day: I went back to basics and did a targetting session with a plastic card on the end of a ruler. I did this in the kitchen. Texas as usual caught on pretty quick, as did Jamie. Chester kept giving his open mouthed touch, wanting to bite the ruler, so I found it harder to reward him, I really didn't want to encourage a bite of the ruler, just a nose touch. A couple of times I accidently rewarded the bite and then tried to get him to go back to a nose touch. At one point he was just sitting there staring off in the distance - not a good sign. A couple of times he got it and gave a really nice nose touch but these were few and far between. He's a bit of a challenge when I have Texas and Jamie around following my body language. I think I'll stick to the "targetting" for the moment. At least for a couple of weeks, a chance to move the target into different environments, and then onto different objects. I don't do clicker training sessions every day either, so sometimes I have to go back a few steps over what they have already done, which takes time. Think I will leave posting for a while until I have either made some progress or need some help. Actually, any suggestions on how I can keep a high reward ratio going with Chester at the same time as discouraging the bite of the ruler, instead of a nose touch. His first reaction is to bite it, and sometimes I have waited for him to take his teeth off and until his nose is on, this can take a few seconds, and he seems to get frustrated with having to wait (like why didn't I get a click/reward for that?), and sometimes I have rewarded the mouthing (accidently - hence the question why didn't I get a click/reward for that? when I wait for the nose touch). I was also thinking if I am rewarding his bite then wait then nose touch, wouldn't I be rewarding that whole sequence, rather than the straight nose touch? I don't want to discourage him from interacting with it altogether - which happened. What would be your recommendation? Sam.

Bigbum, Thanks for your tips... Jamie has been doing the rollover for over a year. But ... Since acquiring the clicker (Dec 2003) I have been making a few changes, improvements on certain old behaviours that they have been doing ok. When I asked for a "wait" in the middle of the rollover, I expected she would still finish the rollover and wait in the down, instead I was surprised to find a wait before she had finished the rollover, not at all unhappy about it though, I thought it was cool. But then when I went to ask for a full rollover she had decided to remember the last big reward for not going all the way over and she would roll over all over the place almost begging on her back for a reward. As far as the premack principle goes - (it's funny how you hear things then all of a sudden it's everywhere) I have been asking for a lot of different tricks at a bunch of different times, for about a month now. I used to just ask for a single pirouette before dinner time for example, now I go through a whole series of tricks. Since the problem with the roll over I have been getting Jamie to rollover before the bowl goes down, she has returned to her previous skill level now. That worked great. I have also been asking for a wave before they get to come inside with me, another trick before they get a run with the ball. NILIF. tollersowned: as far as the when to click goes. If your dog is giving the behaviour, I would click immediately after the behaviour as bigbum said the click ends the behaviour... However, if your dog is not giving the behaviour in full, clicking before he/she has finished would probably work okay, in that sense you will be rewarding increments in the right direction - shaping. I have been toying with this a little over the past month or so.. I have found that, if I expect my dog to finish a behaviour and I click too early it gets cut off and they don't finish what they would have. (1pt for click ends behaviour). If your dog is quick you may get away with an early click or two. With the rollover, if you click beyond the point of no return, the only way the dog can get the reward is if it finishes the behaviour to get up on his/her feet and to you for the reward. Like when you click the jump. When clicking a jump in the early learning stage, you are doing this. You click when they have two feet on one side and two feet on the other side of the jump, the dog is going to keep going over the jump, he has passed the point of no return, therefore the click is in the middle of the behaviour rather than the end. (1pt for click the "photograph"). Has this cleared it up, or muddied the water? Sam.

I'd love to say something on this trick... I tried it just to see what mine would do without any planning or following any method... Tex and Jame got rewarded for it a couple of times. Chester was just confused. Hopeless effort by me really. Not happy with myself ;) Have gone back to targetting with a stick/ruler. Thanks for the challenge though, I need something a little more difficult to try my hand on. The dogs will do fine as soon as I get my act together. Sam. PS - will give an update in a week or so on how things are progressing.

Okay, Jamie seems a little confused now since I asked for a wait in the middle of the rollover to do a rollback. I cued the "rollover" and expecting her to do it I clicked too early and she stopped half way and rolled back and got up. Wasn't happy, because of course since I clicked she got the reward. It has taken a number of goes to get her to go all the way over now, and she is quite slow and doesn't do multiple rollovers either? How annoying and here I was thinking how good she was doing for stopping half way. You'd think I'd know by now how well dogs remember the last thing they did in the same circumstances that go so highly rewarded. And you'd think I'd learnt by now that clicking too early is almost as bad as clicking too late. Any ideas on how to get her back to where she was? Sam. When your dog does well s/he deserves the accolades, when your dog doesn't do well you only have yourself to blame.

Ok, another update: (just another chance for me to go on about how much fun I am having trick training my dogs really ) Texas does the "spin" with a finger hand signal. His multiple "pirouettes" have worked out really well. I have been walking them separately a few days a week and adding a few tricks along the way so it isn't so boring to walk by my side and not go to the park this trip, sorta thing. His "pirouettes" on lead have been a little more difficult than I expected they would be for him, as he was reliably walking and pirouetting by my side off lead, I think it might get in the way, so I have been doing a lot of leading him with my hand to get him moving, and moving a little around in front of him. He tends to sit, maybe because I used to always ask for it from him being in a sitting position since he first learnt it? (*sorry ... poor sentence structure*) Jamie does the walking on lead and pirouette by my side with no major problems, the first few times tended to be a little confusing but she quickly moved beyond that. I haven't tried out the "spin" the other way with her yet, keep forgetting. Chester too, has no problem doing this on lead by my side. And it is great for getting his walk by my side back in line, when he gets a little too far ahead, he is more willing to pay attention than walk, walk, walk, "ha ha I'm walking ahead of you, we'll go this way yeh?" When I add a cue here and there as we are walking he is much more willing to give me attention, just in case he might miss an opportunity for a reward Haven't done the "spin" the other way with him yet either. That's it for the "pirouette". Keep up the tricks. Sam.

Another advanced move on "shake" is the "wave". The way I taught mine to "wave" was: once "shake" is a reliable behaviour, instead of catching the paw I took my hand away quickly, raised it high and clicked their paws in the air before it would drop down to the ground again. I then took away the "shake" cue, of hand ready to catch, and used a finger-clap wave of my own as well as saying "wave". BTW: Chester is giving his "right" paw on cue now, didn't take long. Sam.

A little off topic again: I think I'll give the shaping a go with the "close the door" trick that sounds like it could work ... as long as I can do it right... I haven't really tried shaping much... except with the 101 box which I have left by the way side for the moment. I'll let you know if I encounter any problems. On shaping: I have successfully shaped my Texas into picking up things in the back yard but I don't use the clicker I just use "yes" and "no" as to the direction and the occassional "pick it up" so he understands that I want him to get something... it should be easier with the clicker. The other day there was a plastic bag in the backyard floating around.. I pointed out toward it and said "Texas pick it up" and watched as he wondered around looking for what I was talking about... it took a while and I had to get a little closer to the plastic bag as it kept moving in the wind on me... but everytime he was near it or heading in the right direction "yes" etc.. then when he'd go into another area of the yard I'd say "no it's not over there" all very conversational really... he got it eventually and got a game with the tennis ball as a reward... great fun but hard work for me. I had to call him into me too as he got frustrated a couple of times. This was how I got him picking up the metal dog bowls.. all 3 of them.. one of them he has to flip up as it has nothing to hold on to otherwise... I have also tried telling him to go get the bowls while I have been sitting in the lounge room doing other things... that took ages... but of course he's pretty motivated.... and he got them all eventually I was in no hurry but I was surprised he got them as usually when doing this trick I am right there on the back step guiding him in the right direction... I think when I was inside I would hear the metal and just let him know that that was what I wanted. One day he decided it was dinner time and brought it to me by himself.. trust me I got the hint LOL. Geez I have gone off on a tangent here haven't I? I like telling these anecdotes though. Hope I didn't bore you too much. Sam.

Yeh I have done this with mine.. Pre-clicker again... and too impatient again teaching them "rollover" and "rollback" at the same time.. My Jamie girl (the smart one) did rollover and rollback but then would anticipate it and roll the wrong way.. and then when I started clicking I just stuck with the rollover and let the rollback wait a while... I've caught up now and she will do both directions.. and recently I got her to rollover and wait... I was so surprised when she stopped midroll (on her back) and then I said rollback and she rolled the other way... she really is smarter than I give her credit for sometimes... shame on me I also had to change the hand signal in the middle of all this as my little finger movement kept getting confused with the little finger movement of the "pirouette" so at the moment I am using a full exaggerated arm movement to avoid confusion. Chester was doing both as well... pre clicker... again with the clicker decided to concentrate on the one direction rollover... and changing the hand signal... He was also anticipating the rollover with a down so have changed it up a lot... down stay... down sit down sit (puppy push-ups)... and down stay and then wait for it wait for it okay roll over roll over roll over.. Now he does multiple rollovers in quick succession and it's so cute he goes in a circle as well... like he'll start in front of me and rollover and rollover and I'll have turned about 45 or 90 degrees by the time he's done... I remember once early on when I wasn't going for the multiple rollovers and I was suddenly getting him to rollover and then sit... the look on his face was priceless... it was obvious he got the fact that he had to wait for the next cue or no reward. And who said dalmatians were dumb....? Just to see how they would go... experiment really.. I decided to see if I could get Jamie and Chester (I don't like doing this with Texas too much... I'm not sure that it is very good for him.. he looks so awkward) to do a rollover next to each other... it took a great deal of patience .. probably more than I have ... but well there is hope lets just say.. There was waaayy too much distraction going on... "no Texas go away... Jamie down... Chester come here... no Texas go away... Jamie down... Chester down.... oh Texas go away"... sorta thing happening ... which really wasn't working in my favour or theirs. I think they did it eventually but I won't try it again in those circumstances at least until I'm sure they know what to expect. Jamie didn't like being rolled over onto by Chester either so I had to make sure she was on the other side... that is she was rolling on him rather than him rolling onto her? Anyway... great fun...!!! Sam.

They have this trick at my agility class (only intro) with Chester, but I must have been doing it earlier as all my dogs "touch" my hand. I have never thought to use the two finger method, it sounds like a better option, as Chester (who looks just like a baby bird with his mouth open waiting for the next feed) tends to give an open mouth touch, which I have effectively rectified by only clicking when his nose is touching and his mouth is closed. My jumping Jamie girl touches my hand when I hold it straight out at my side, she loves that trick. I just started trying with other things, like the "ring the bell" trick, only I have used a toy tamborine. Texas loves making lots of noise. I found this out when I also got a toy keyboard, no clicker, no treats, and placed it on the ground to see what they would do. Texas kept hammering it with his paws, making it go totally off, all I said was good boy, he's a little mad I think. He absolutely goes crazy for all these tricks, and loves using his paws. I use the word "paws" when I want them to use their paws as opposed to their nose. I have done this with a towel initially (for Pets As Therapy training) and have moved to an ice cream lid. I'll sit and wait them, place the ice cream lid on the ground, about 10 meters away, then stand aside to make a triangle and point at the lid and say "paws". Chester and Texas are great with this trick, they touch the lid with their paws, it's more like a pounce, I click, and they coming running to me to retrieve their reward. I plan to expand out to "closing the door". I remember trying that earlier, a few months back, using my hand. Placing a postitnote over my hand, then moving the postitnote to the door. I probably progressed too quickly, but they did it a couple of time as I recall. They tended to want to use their paws rather than their nose, hence the "paws" trick. The "touch" is also good for other tricks, it could work with the spin. Off topic a little: bigbum, helen, you are on dog talk? I joined a couple of weeks ago. I posted 3 dog walk mayhem last week if you saw that? What names do you go by on dogtalk? Sam.

Great shot And quick little learner... how old is Bindi? Sam. After edit: Ok just saw the photos, Bindi is 5 months, the rest still stands.

Update: I got Texas going the other way (clockwise) with no problem, I'm calling it "spin", and leaving "pirouette" for the anticlockwise direction. Tex does a couple now before rewarding, he used to only do one, and if I asked for it again he'd look at me like: "What? I already did that?" He also does the pirouette by my side and behind me. Not from a very big distance though. Jamie does a couple too now, same story as Texas, never asked for two in a row before. Chester loves doing it and the multiple pirouettes haven't caused any confusion for him. He also does it by my side which looks almost like a doggy dancing move, choreographed??? Still working at all this tricks and clicking Sam. BTW: Again, I love these trick training posts. Thanks all for your contributions and inspirations. Gives me something to aim for, as I'm obviously not as clever with these tricks as I used to think I was.

Yes well enthusiasm isn't the only thing needed. :D And it's not just my enthusiasm that seems to be causing so much difficulty with this trick. My dogs just seem way too hyped up??? They are doing it, walking backwards between two crates, but only in short bursts and only between the crates, I will try with the chairs see if that makes a difference. As soon as they are back through the crates they turn left or right and they don't do it with their head too far forward. That is, if I call them through forward and start moving towards them and they come too far forward when I start heading them off again they kinda bolt all the way through and behind me. Ok. I just reread the method. I think I have definately gone way too fast. One step one step one step one step one step one step backwards, just trying to cement that into my adled brain. My dogs are definately way hyped up too. What I'll do: get them standing in front of me between the crates (maybe chairs, though the crates do the job, hallway is no good) nice and calm. Then take one step forward, towards them. I reckon they will go back one step no problems rather than the possibility of sitting. Then reward. Nice and calm. I am being too impatient Super Hyped Up Sam and Co.

I agree this is the best method I have used. My dalmatian Chester would not shake with his right paw, I tried to click and shape any lift off the ground but found this slow and quite unsuccessful. Then this week I've changed and instead lift his paw gently, he does a "right" shake ok, well with more practice I can see he will get it on cue in no time at all. Sam.

Great !!! I haven't done this at all with mine. Can't wait to try it!!! I'll let you know how I go. Sam.

Ok You got me thinking more fun stuff - gonna try the other way with them too now. Thanks Salli for that one. Sam.

Tried the "piroutte" by my side and behind me at the park today. Did it no problems with Texas, I got distracted by a little kid with my other two. Also I gave my mum my old clicker to try some stuff. She's getting her dog to follow a target (ruler) and she was also trying the "piroutte" using her finger to get her around, only got her half way. I suggested she use the target... we'll see how she goes. Sam.

I have no idea how I taught my dogs to do this but it is a standard pre-meal trick. I use the word "piroutte". I will try the advance moves, though. I haven't even thought of getting them to do it by my side/s or anywhere but when they are directly in front of me. Sam.