CliftonPark

I would be very interested to know what she says too and yes I only just discovered that as I have the DVDs I can join 5th Quadrant and shall do so to learn more. Thanks good point. laughing aside I shall try and get the visual I have in my mind of bugs dancing at your feet.....you obviously have a wealth of knowledge and experience. Do you run workshops/courses for dog trainers looking to learn more....I don't think you ever stop learning actually.

The CAT procedures shown always had placid easy going decoy dogs for obvious reasons but as you state above what happens when the dog is pushed a little too far? The process shown did not include upping the anti with the type of decoy dogs used and I wonder if the process could be extended to using decoy dogs that are more bouncy, playful types, dogs that bark (friendly/excited barking) dogs that will teach the target dog to cope with a bit more. The dog is going to encounter this in real life and also needs to be able to cope and realise these are also non threatening behaviours. Do they incorporate this at all as I didn't see it done or get discussed. I know you can't proof against everything the dog will encounter but if the goal is to be friendly with other dogs I do think they need to be trained to cope with more than placid dogs. Guess it depends on how far the owner is prepared to go with the training and what they want to achieve. Perhaps more than one training method could be employed to help cover different situations in dealing with things in the real world, like a distration technique 'look at me' if a particularly risky confrontation is anticipated so that they don't just have to rely on the CAT training and have other training tools at their disposal. agree Think you did a great job explaining things actually and I thank you. Assuming the process is suitable for the dog, do you use the CAT procedure as a preferred method for dog aggression or something else?

Thankyou Aidan great information. I felt the same regarding habituation and that the dog could get used to the decoy dog or person and the environments that the training is occuring in espec due to the amount of time exposed to them with this type of training and that a number of appropriate decoy dogs would be required as well as people handling the decoy dogs to really proof the procedure. Re generalising in new environments that can't be controlled, this is where I have a concern about uncontrolled dogs. I understand you need to complete the procedure in a controlled environment first and because of this the dog in theory should not be reactive/as reactive. But if habituation of the controlled environments/dogs/people has occured I do think there is a real risk that the dog may react in the uncontrolled environment espec if an inappropriate dog is confronted. I'm thinking you almost need a team of people monitoring the uncontrolled environment to minimise risk until you have proofed the dog in many environments with many dogs and people. I thought there may need to be some type of ongoing training (by handler/owner) to maintain the strength of the alternate responses espec if the dog is inadvertantly exposed to inappropriate dogs to help prevent regression. Excuse my ignorance but could you please explain 'non functional reinforcer' You said that this procedure is now popular. Do you know some good trainers in Melbourne that use C.A.T. you would recommend I talk to.

That might be the case for fear aggression but I can't see it working for other forms of aggression. A dominant dog showing signs of aggression is NOT going to de-escalate if the other dogs doesn't leave. Analysis of the dog would be critical here.. and it would be potentially dangerous to get it wrong. I'm thinking if the aggression is a learned behaviour it can be manipulated with this type of procedure. I think as you that a dominant dog would be a problem. Sounds like a very low key version of "flooding". "Trickling" perhaps? trickling I like that. They are shaping behaviour though by selectively reinforcing improved alternate behaviours that are offered. Very minor alt behaviours initially (a look away, sniff of the ground whatever) but if the trainer is really good with timing and selecting what to reinforce from what I've seen (and they show the trials of many dogs) the dogs do learn to offer behaviours other than aggression. I think it really needs a very good trainer. I do think it could easily be done incorrectly in the wrong hands. The other thing that I liked was that the handler of the target dog (usually the owner but sometimes they tether the dog but with the owner still present if they are concerned about redirection or the handler not being able to hold the dog if a big aggressive response does happen) is that the handler does nothing...they do not speak to the dog, do not reniforce the dog just be there and do nothing. It takes all the pressure off the handler who is usually stressed about their dogs aggression.

That might be the case for fear aggression but I can't see it working for other forms of aggression. A dominant dog showing signs of aggression is NOT going to de-escalate if the other dogs doesn't leave. Analysis of the dog would be critical here.. and it would be potentially dangerous to get it wrong. I'm thinking if the aggression is a learned behaviour it can be manipulated with this type of procedure. I think as you that a dominant dog would be a problem.

The procedure is done in very controlled situations intially before moving to the real world. Yes I agree with you and this is part of what I would like to understand from anyone using this method. How did they generalise it to the real world?

I agree totally that you use what is right for the dog. I have seen the seminar dvd's and would now like to find someone that has experience with it to learn more about it from people that have experience with treating aggression and using not only C.A.T. but other methods to determine it's strengths and weaknesses. I just have not been able to locate anyone yet that has a thorough knowledge and experience with C.A.T. I'm hoping with all the dolers out there that there will be someone that does have that knowledge and experience.

can you explain what this is? i haven't heard of it before. It's difficult to explain properly and be brief. Here some info I have copied. C.A.T is an operant approach to treating aggression and uses negative reinforcement. It is a shaping procedure. The Constructional approach, which was presented by Ruiz-Rosales and Snider at the seminar, maintains that aggression is a learned behavior and it is persistent because it has worked in the past. Aggression makes other dogs go away, that aggressive behavior becomes very reinforcing. The dog learns that aggressive behavior pays off. So, what would happen if the aggressive behavior didn’t pay off? Since the function of most aggression is to achieve distance from the icky thing (other dogs, humans, skateboards), if you can manipulate the consequences (the icky thing DOESN’T go away when the dog aggresses) then the dog will start to experiment with which behaviors actually will make the icky thing go away. Initially the behaviors may be very small; a sideways glance, blinking the eyes, or a head turn. The dog learns that THOSE behaviors WILL make the icky thing go away. As the treatment progresses the dog begins to feel more comfortable, he will offer more and more alternative behaviors, building a repertoire that is more social and friendlier. All of this is done under carefully controlled circumstances with the trainer, the client and his or her dog. In the cases of dog to people aggression a series of humans are used as decoys to work with the aggressive dog so that the dog can take these alternative social behaviors and begin to apply them across the board. The same technique is used with dogs who are aggressive to other dogs. Decoy dogs work just beyond the dog’s comfort level and move ever closer as the dog softens and becomes more accepting. The end goal for all types of aggression using these techniques is total interaction not just tolerance.

The C.A.T. procedure I am referring to is the one developed by Jesus Rosales-Ruiz and Kellie Snider. Not requiring trainer that only uses this method, just want to talk with a trainer that is knowledgable about this procedure and has experience applying it. I watched the seminar conducted by Jesus and Kellie and am interested in discussing it further with a trainer that has experience with it.

Does anyone know a trainer in Melbourne (don't care where) that uses C.A.T Constructional Aggression Treatment method for treating aggressive dogs?

We offer our dogs a range of fun activities that involve them using their brain and natural abilities as well as exercise. The variety of activities keeps them stimulated and happy. Flyball (great if your dog is ball obsessed), Agility, Lure, Retreiving and depending if you're an early morning person (as they start very early) Tracking. Obedience training is important and throwing in some of these activities incorporates your dog learning to listen to you and follow instruction as well as having some fun too.

Lucian08 it is great that everyone is feeding your pup and being taught to sit before eating. You sound like you are doing a good job. Your pup is only 9 weeks old and as you are aware constantly learning how to behave. I replied to BlackMagic due to a concern that her comments indicated her dog is learning to 'not trust' people near her food bowl, hence the dog deciding the need to take her food away to a safe place when it's humans take food from the bowl. This can progress to aggression (particularly as the dog gets older) if the dog continues to learn that humans near my food bowl = losing some or all of my food (even if only temporarily). The best and safest method to help prevent food aggression is to create a 'positive association' with people near the food bowl. If everyone in the family goes up to pup while eating and place an extra treat or 2 in the bowl your pup will love you coming near his bowl. If in the future an unsupervised child does go up and take food away from your dog the early training should prevent an aggressive response as the expectation of the dog will that of receiving food not losing it. This is the safest way for you to help ensure your dog stays the way he is. All the best.

I agree with Shell. BARF patties are a complete meal that includes fruit and vegetables and requires minimal handliing and preparation. Particularly now the patties are individually shrink wrapped. May be a bit more expensive, but at least your dog will be getting the good diet that he is used to.

Have you considered a natural diet like BARF? IMO a highly processed diet with so much grain is not what dogs are designed to eat. There are some great threads that can offer lots of information on BARF and RAW feeding.

A puppy playpen is a god send when you can't keep an eye on your puppy. You can also attach it to the crate so puppy has a play area but can also go in to crate for a sleep. Love to see a photo when you get your new baby. It's such fun getting organised for a new puppy.

If you want your pup to be ok with people near food bowl, it is best to 'put food in' rather than 'take it out' so that your pups is glad you are near the food bowl and not distrusting of you and feeling the need to hide her food.

I looked at a number of policies and went with Manchester Unity. I'm insuring in case of some very expensive disaster happening. They offer flexability by choosing a higher excess to reduce premium and IMO had best coverage including cover for genetically inherited problems if you take out the higher cover.

We decided to go with the daily tablets. You are very right that people have no clue what the vet gives the dog. I didn't. I think vets are prob afraid to say one product is better than another and only give info if you're informed enough to ask the right questions. I take nothing the vet says for granted anymore and do my own research.

Wow that's a much better way to buy BARF. Do you know what state they are in, I can imagine postage being very expensive.

Be careful with chicken wings too. I thought my pups were chewing them well as I taught them to chew by holding one end of wing to start with and then this week one of them crunched the wing twice and swallowed it. I spent rest of day stressing out that it would get stuck. It didn't, but found big enough bone pieces in poop to worry me about letting them have wings again. I'm going to try chicken frames. I've also tried lamb shanks and they chew those really well and bone too big to swallow. I don't let them have any bones unsupervised though.

Just started my first box of the new packaged patties and I think the new packaging is much less messy in the thawing process and I used to hate trying to seperate the round patties. The meat seems a lot fresher packaged this way. More the colour of what fresh meat should look like IMO. Just think the coloured cardboard box is extravagant and wasteful and probably why we have to pay more for it. I purchase a lot of patties (I use 1 box per day for my crew) and think they should offer a bulk size box with just the shrink packed patties inside (ie no fancy coloured cardboard box) and sell the bulk amount for less. I have to unbox them anyway to fit in to freezer.

My sentiments exactly! :rolleyes:

Can't remember the last timeI laughed so much!

Thanks for your opinion I have heard this before and that how you grow your pup and it's health, diet and exercise play an important role. (Billinghurst's book 'Grow your pups with bones' goes along the lines of what you are saying regarding health of the dog).

How the !@#$! Luke I agree totaly, it is a very awkward moment. It takes a thick skin and a decision that your pups training is more important than some stranger (or perhaps friend) feelings at being told how to behave while you try and train your pup. I've taken the attidue that if you don't like it p...off (I don't actually say that....yet ) however, I refuse to have an obnoxious pup because some obnoxious person doesn't care that their ignorance at what I am trying to achieve becomes me having a problem pup. I have to say most people when you explain what you are trying to achieve have been very understanding. I have found that if you explain that you do not want your now 6kg? pup to jump and bowl over their 'beautiful' children when they are 30kg and that I appreciate their help in teaching my pup to learn that they cannot jump up etc etc....