jesomil

What a gorgeous dog you have. She really is a stunner .

I have a great relationship with my first breeder. She came to my wedding and I still visit her everytime I go back to Sydney even though I dont have one of her dogs anymore (but will soon!!). With my next two dogs, I have a great relationship with the breeders and have gone out with them socially. I email them both and they are both wonderful people and always helpful. I have had quite a few Christmas cards over the years from puppy buyers but no really close relationships.

My dogs tend to do two big sheds per year and the rest of the year its only fairly light shedding. While I have been overseas for a few months my boy has been living the life of luxury with heating and a coat on and sleeping on the persons bed and she has said he has been shedding profusely. He has never shed like that in his life. Probably lost all his nice, thick Winter coat now.

ETA OOps, not going to get involved. Sitting on naughty hands Also, changed avatar so further biases when reading my posts will be avoided

Mjk05, I obviously dont explain myself very well. I think you are taking all my posts directly stating to sheepdogs because I have a Kelpie in my Avatar. I will show an example as to where my thinking is at. Just say a top trialler over here managed to purchase a top working GSD bitch from Europe. It is highly unlikely that bitch would be desexed or even sold to someone who would desex her. They would purchase her and work her over here to prove her and then breed from her if she were showing desired characteristics that would add greatly to lines here. It would be an enormous waste if she was bought out, trialled very well and then desexed. Why even bother getting a dog of her calibre in the first place. It would have to be a breed enthusiast in the first place to be interested at all. Anyway, there are a few different angles being discussed her and I think it is causing confusion. Or maybe I am just really crap at explaining myself .

She is stating her opinions purely on her experience in her chosen sport as are you. I think this is where there is confusion. I have never questioned why someone would trial desexed dogs. It doesnt bother me what other people do. I simply stated I would never desex mine. I am not sure I have given any impressions other than understanding where BB is coming from with her opinions. I dont think someone would avoid a working dog breeder just because they thought they would have to keep their dogs entire. I am sure they would do their own research into the who's and why's and what is best first. There are many working dogs and breeds out there and I have been talking about them in general not sheepdogs alone. ETA maybe as an answer to the thread topic, we could say it all depends on many factors with desexing females. Maybe the answer depends purely on what you want the dog for. The answer is yes in some situations and no in others.

I think this is going in circles a little and I think we are talking about different things. With sheepdogs, all breeders sell to people who need dogs for working stock (otherwise, why breed them?) and I have never seen one with breeders terms. You buy it, its yours. I dont care if people desex their dogs but merely that I understand BB's opinion how you wouldnt desex a Sch dog. Alot of my comments have been referring to Sch dogs, not just sheepdogs It would be interesting to find out how desexing affects working ability and drive but not just from anecdotal evidence. Maybe it doesnt affect them if done after full maturity? If a dog is desexed before maturity, it will affect its growth and development but I assume that desexing before this time would also affect drives especially drives required for Schutzhund. I have never seen a desexed dog at a sheepdog trial or a schutzhund trial so there must be reasons.

What your saying mjk05 is obvious good breeding practises. No one is saying use winners cause they are winners. You need to work the dog and know how all the relatives worked as well. I think you stated the obvious.

I would hope everyone would look to the world wide experts!! Always good to expand ones knowledge base outside ones own experience. The consequences of some breeding practises in greyhounds is a huge and tragic excess of a breed. I think that poor breeding practises in working and show dogs in general would be on par as to what excess they produce. I guess the problem with this sort of a discussion is everyone becomes so passionate about working or showing. I wish there could be more understanding between the two not just insulting remarks and misunderstanding. ETA no, changed my mind.

So your addition to the conversation was just to "slap em one". I dont think it is helpful. Just remember there are some good working enthusiasts here who are very respectful to all avenues of dogs. I dont think anyone has commented on show lines here. I have no prob with them. I am about to buy a pup for showing with no working ability at all (although it is not a breed that is traditionally worked anyway).

Good sensible posts SecretKai Yep, and there are just as many shonky show line breeders who are keeping the pounds just as busy. I dont really follow what you are saying Greytmate. Have you had much to do with the working line "scene"? But have a gander at some of the show lines some people are breeding.....sheesh. What is the difference here? There are as many good and bad breeders on both sides of the fence. Thats great that it has worked in your breed but unfortunately it isnt possible in some breeds. I wont go into this as it is really OT. You dont know when they are baby puppies. If its a top litter then they would only go to breed enthusiasts who would see how they turned out before desexing. I am not just talking sheepdogs here. I certainly know this would be the case with Sch dogs. My breeder would have not sold me my dog if I was going to desex and I got her at 8 weeks. I dont understand this either. You are talking about a scenario of an irresponsible owner letting their dog get knocked up, then talking about irresponsible breeding where pups are being knocked on the head. I am not basing any of this discussion on mediochre dogs or puppies being produced. I am talking about breed enthusiasts breeding the best they can to better the breed. There will always be a high demand for these pups. There are shonky breeders at every level in every breed. I think we are not referring to them.

A dog of that quality would only go to someone who would not desex. Whats the point of breeding top dogs if they arent going to be tested and bred from to improve the breed if suitable.

But we should be breeding to better the breeds abilities, so if the parents produced an even better pup, then the pup should be bred from. Onwards and upwards. Plus parents get old and pass on, you cant always keep going back to the parents. Obviously you wouldnt just breed a great dog because it was great, you would breed a great dog because it was great and was from a line of great dogs. You wouldnt get a dog from the pound, have it win everything then breed. Most working enthusiasts would buy a puppy from the best lines they could afford. I think what BB said was referring to the sport he/she is involved as maybe that opinion is the norm. I dont really understand this. I thought your trialling dogs would be your best dogs.

No, it means you should keep having fun with your dog, not pack up and start knitting. If you were a working line enthusiast and had bought your dog from working lines to compete with and it turned out to be a big winner with amazing talent, it would be a shame not to be able to put that dogs skills into bettering the breed. Just the same with show people when they sell a puppy to a pet home (where it is desexed) and it turns out a magnificent example of the breed, they will wish it hadnt necessarily been desexed. I agree that a title doesnt mean breedworthy but it also depends on the title and what it represents and its purpose.

I think BB is talking about a different type of sport/performance. From what I have seen, most dogs who compete in working dog trials eg schutzhund and sheepdog trials are entire. Only certain breeds are capable of doing these sports and it is a test of their genetics. Yes, of course people do it for fun but it is a test to see whether the dogs are breed worthy. What a shame to have a super bitch who is winning everything and showing amazing skill and not be able to breed that on. Working dog breeding is always striving to breed better workers and competition against other working dogs is a good way to test that. Obedience, agility, herding etc has been designed for everyone and all breeds to be able to participate in. Its for the enjoyment for dog and handler. Other working dog trials are based alot on genetics so breeding and breedability is a bigger issue as the dogs are being tested and bred to improve their abilities. I would not desex a performance dog of mine. From 3 separate breeders in 3 breeds, I have been advised not to. Not ever really thought why but I assumed its because it changed the way they worked.

Definately dont agree. None of us would want entire dogs if that was the case. Dogs look different when they are desexed young compared to when they are left entire. For most people though, they dont notice or dont care. It doesnt cause a huge amount of problems though although it can cause some. I would personally let your pup mature more before desexing. Vets tell everyone to desex at 6 months as it is before most dogs get to sexual maturity therefore they catch them before they have a chance to procreate. If you are a responsible, educated dog owner, you dont have to get your dog desexed at all although for most pet situations I would recommend it at around 12 months. I would have a chat to your vet and if he continues to tell you what you have to do, find a better one. I use two vets and neither have ever questioned me on desexing. ETA he is a gorgeous puppy!

I have the Balabanov and Dildei books and highly recommend them both

I start by having the dog sitting at my side and teaching eye contact. You must have a reward they want and will work for. I will use food as an example. I then show the dog what I want. I hold the food to his nose and take a few steps with the dog following the food in perfect heel position. Gradually you move your hand higher and increase the steps you take as well as the length of time between rewards once the dog understands what you are after. You must have the dogs attention and he must want what you have before you step off. If the dog is stopping looking after only few steps then I would be starting again and upping the rewards so the dog gets excited about it and understands that he will be rewarded by heeling. Only then do you gradually space out rewards. Some people find heeling boring but only because they make it that way. If you dont enjoy heeling, the dog wont either. I find heeling to be the most exciting exercise and it is a huge thrill to handle or watch a dog that heels beautifully with extreme handler focus. I dont teach anything other than straight line heeling until they have that down pat.

Like what Bedazzled said, I hold food in both hands and wait for a split second of eye contact then reward. You build it up so that the dog learns everytime he wants food, he has to look you in the eyes. He learns that food only comes from eye contact, nothing else. Food never comes from looking at the hand or nudging the hand, so the dog will do what works. Then you start asking for longer eye contact, so you only reward after 2 secs then 5 secs then 10 secs etc etc till you get the required eye contact you desire.

I am so sorry this happened to you and your family. What a terrible tragedy.

I believe age doesnt matter. As long as you and your dog are confident in all the required trialling exercises, then go for it. If you arent quite up to scratch just yet, then take the time to work your way up. Just as long as you and your pup are having fun! Definately get along to a trial, you will learn alot and it will give you an idea as to what you are aiming for. I entered my Rottweiler in her first obedience trial at 12 months and she had her CD 3 months later. She was young and immature but had a pretty good handle on the exercises.

Great post Dancinbcs

Whats wrong with the advert? They are registered breeders with Australian Champion dogs. WKC (Working Kelpie Council) is the registry that Working Kelpies are registered with. They compete at various working dog trials throughout the country to obtain these highly prized titles. They are very hard to get. I didnt know they had a website. Lots of great Kelpie photos! Take a look at the last person to win a dog. Great story.

I dont necessarily agree with giving working dogs as prizes but we have to put all this in perspective a little. We arent talking about beloved pets here, we are talking about a commodity on a farm. The fact that a pup is bought from a working dog breeder doesnt guarantee a better home than if it was won. When someone buys a working dog, they arent questioned about amount of time they will spend with pup, or accomodation, training or anything else. The farmer says what he needs, the breeder provides. If the dogs are good they are prized, if they are no good, they are disposed of. I dont see a problem with a breeder being able to provide a puppy a month. It would not be an 8 week old puppy. The breeder probably has lots of young dogs at several ages that he would be able to choose from to get the right one to fit for the winner. I would think you would need to have a number of dogs in your breeding program to be able to achieve what he is trying to achieve. These dogs are very good workers and will be highly prized. They wont be useless and shot. The breeder will choose a dog exactly suited to the work required and even offers backup training. I can only guess that he is giving these dogs as prizes so people can have exposure to them and he can possibly get further sales?

Oh no!! I was shocked to see this here and was hoping it wasnt him. I am so sorry laneka What a magnificent dog he was in every way.