jesomil

When i was grooming, i noticed a pronounced difference in some breeds coats when they were desexed. Cockers are one of them. You can tell a desexed cocker from a mile away. BUT, as a pet it doesnt matter. You can just clip off the hair and its fine. There is a big difference though. It is not every breed obviously but just certain types. Maybe just the ones that are traditionally stripped. I had an afghan in a full coat that i had desexed at 2 1/2. Her coat became unmanageable after that and i started clipping her off. It became so thick. The pros of having a desexed pet far outweigh the cons of some coats for PET owners. You can also generally pick out a male that has been desexed young from a distance too. Their build is different. Desexed males tend to be a bit taller, with a narrower chest, less blocky head etc. Everyday at the park i call my dog to walk with me when i see an entire male at a distance. Desexed ones doesnt matter. I havent failed yet in being able to pick the entire ones. I cant tell the difference by looks with a desexed bitch but i have seen behaviour changed when desexed as an adult. I am very glad we have the choice of how we keep our dogs though. I keep my boy entire as i need him that way. My girl is desexed as she is a pet. I just wish there was a way to enforce desexing upon all the idiots out there that are doing the wrong thing.

Very interesting. You got me thinking. With my dog, his biggest reward inside is food. Outside he will totally ignore food and will do anything for his toy. He is completely toy mad. But around stock, you can do all you want with the toy or food and he will not even blink from his concentration on the stock. I guess working sheep must be self rewarding because there is no way i could reward him with anything else other than releasing him to work sheep. He would work them till he dropped dead. I wish i could bottle it and use it for other training

I think the questions you are asking are great. It really made me think about foods and about the ingredient list and how i interpret them. Also very interesting to read other peoples thought. Sorry that there always seems to be peole who think it is all about them and get rude. Ignore them.

I would want to look into the brands more. Its a bit confusing how they are listed. Product A's main ingredient is probably rice followed by lamb meal. The rice has been broken down into 3 things just to be trickey i think. I think lamb meal is a cheap product. I think both products would have similar digestability as they are both cereal based food which i think would equal volumous stools. Product B's main ingredient is cereals and bran which means both products probably have the same amount of meat in them. I think the protein would mainly be plant based protein instead of animal based. I think product B would be cheaper as they are saying "real chick etc", whereas in fact there probably isnt much meat in it at all looking at the ingredients list and they are trying to make it sound good. I think that both products would be of a similar quality. I generally go for the more expensive products but they have to be good to support their price. I certainly would not buy either of these foods. I think they would both be of a supermarket grade. I would be interested in seeing the rest of the ingredients before making a decision on them if i were to buy. A little bit off topic, I think there is a big company out there that has the same food in different packaging. 1 is marketed as the best with fancy packaging and the other one is their step lower will dull packaging. I wouldnt be surprised if they were the same food. These marketing people are very clever. I generally tend to look on the label for high meat content and meat based protein. I dont believe the analysis means a great deal in the bigger picture. Eg. I would look at protein quality over ptotein quantity.

Sorry to say, i voted fat. Not obese, just a bit too solid perhaps. I love the lean healthy look. Too many pets these days are carrying a bit too much weight and therefore people are used to seeing the "solid" look and recognise that as normal. People need to recognise the lean look as healthy not the other way around. Greyhounds seem to be one breed that people think look thin if they are at the correct weight. They are boney dogs, that is how they are built. They dont have the roundness of some other breeds. Its very easy to keep pets at a good weight. We control everything that goes into their mouths. The problems fat dogs get as they get older is just not worth it. Not that your dogs look hugely fat, just a bit perhaps .

Thats a great article tmc I particularly like what you do with the pup to start with. Its great how you say when you put that little pup on the sheep for the first time, you can learn so much about its raw instinct. There are no commands or experiences to change that raw instinct. I think sometimes we can get caught up in giving too many commands, especially to start with. I have video of the very first time my 7wk old saw stock and i can learn alot about him from that, just like what you were saying.

The boy i have has the longest coat i have ever seen on a greyhound. Everyone comments on his longer hair. Its not that long though and certainly no where near 6 cms. I have taken a pic of his coat and brushed some of the hair the opposite direction so you can see the length.

Hi t(ad)pole, I live in box hill too!! I have been having trouble finding clubs near by. I had a look at one that was close and they used harsh methods so it may be the same place you went to. Altona is great but it is a long drive. I joined croydon for a while but i had to start in the basic classes even though i had titles on my dogs. Drove me mad. And there is a waiting list for agility. If only Altona was nearby, we would be set. Good luck in your search, i am still looking too! Kate.

Hi Mooper, No, i wasnt there. Too far away, but i was chatting to someone who went and they said there was a bit of an incident there.....

Mooper, were you at the Bungendore herding on the weekend by any chance??

Hi monsterpup, I would love to find out who i could get the dogs titer tested through in Melbourne. My vet doesnt do it. Could you PM me the details? Also, was it expensive? Thanks

Way too high in cereal content for my liking. I can imagine you would need to feed alot and it would go straight through them. I have never tried it.

Any Kelpie hijacking is fine with me :rolleyes: Wow, so they are all grown up since those avatar pics. They all look beautiful!! So are there any more brothers or sisters on DOL??

Your avatar Kelpie-i. Its a really cute shot. They both look like gorgeous boys though. And brothers!!!! ETA Hey HG, can we come out for a play again soon??

What a cute pic of your baby in your avatar !!!!

So, do you all think that the working capabilities come about through instinct or drive satisfaction? I would have said instinct but from what i gathered earlier on, it has alot to do with drive satisfaction? Or am i now confused? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Denis_carthy - interesting article. Food for thought. Dasha - you are a brave person. Intersting thoughts though. I think i agree I think herding can be a wonderful fun sport for some of the working group dogs but as long as there is understanding of the difference between dogs that have been bred for decades for their talent regardless of looks and dogs that have been bred for their looks while still being able to retain a small amount of their talent then i am sure we will retain the abilities of the true working sheepdog. Does that make sense But i guess that is why there are the 3 sheep, yard, utility trials that are for working sheepdogs and then there is the herding ones which are completely different. Gives everyone a go.

I agree that instinct is something that is there (or not) without any training. An example is the first time my boy saw stock. I had 5 ducks and a 7 week old kelpie. I put him on the ground and this tiny fat brown pup ran straight around to the head of the ducks and started pushing them towards me. Where ever i moved he naturally balanced to me. All i had was a rake to push him out when he got a bit too exuberant. It was an amazing example of pure instinct. Since then, i have just worked with this instinct, added commands to what he does and then obviously broadened what he does by teaching other commands that work with the natural instinct. Here is a pic of the floppy eared, goofy looking lad (not that it helps the discussion in any way ;) )

Perhaps instinct is the ability to think and work independantly to a handler, as well as in partnership. I too have a dog that has been taught to "herd", whereas a dog with instinct doesn't need to be taught necessarily, more so managed. We put words to the actions, but the actions are already there - the behaviour is merely captured, not taught. A dog with instinct should have his own ideas of how to work the stock and not have to rely on the handler's interpretation of the situation.

Thanks for all your replies and opinions!! But to add a little more to what i am trying to get at - I have a great amount of instinct in my dog and we are just starting competing in yard dog trials. His lines have been selectively bred for stock work for a very long time and i chose his lines and him solely for these qualities. I have my own opinion as to what is instinct in a dog but was wondering what others were. I have seen on some websites sheep running flat chat with a dog on their tails and the owner proudly displays this as a wonderful herding picture. I wouldnt necessarily agree. I understand with the dogs who show obvious ability but i have trouble believing the dog has instinct when it just tries to chase the stock. Most dogs will chase stock. Can other breeds show working instinct? excluding the dogs bred these days solely for their working ability. I have never seen any other breeds working except for the kelpies and borders so i am interested to know. An example is of my rotty who could move stock quite well. But that is because i taught her stop, left, right and walk in etc. No instinct just an obedient dog.

One of mine does the upright slapping front legs swim. We have tried to help her to swim properly but it hasnt worked. She is now 3 and that is still how she swims so maybe some dogs just arent born naturals.

What behaviours does your dog do that shows you he has instinct? I have been pondering this thought lately as herding has become more popular and i have seen a few photos of different dogs herding. It has led me to be interested as to how is instinct defined in a dog. Do different breeds show instinct in different way? I have no experience in ANKC herding and no experience with other breeds other than working line sheepdogs. I would be interested in peoples thoughts.

I did a bit of herding with my old girl Rotty a few years back. We work the kelpies so i thought i might give her a few go's. She showed lots of chase ability but no real herding like the kelpies. In the end she could move stock but only because i taught her left and right and stop. She did everything on command, no natural instinct.

I agree with everything wheres my rock has said. There are lots of great trainers with and without titles. I personally chose to go for titles because at least that was a way of prooving what levels i have trained dogs to in the past and what i am capable of. When I was young and wanted to get into dog training a very good trainer said to me to work hard for a couple of years and get an OC on your dog. That way there is always the proof. I always judge a trainer by their dogs, with or without titles. If they cant do it with their own dogs then they shouldnt be trying to teach others. I see alot of this going on.

Four dogs eat 7 cups of Eukanuba/Bonnie mix per day, which makes it 49 cups a week.....................oh dear, its scary when you think about it. And about 10 chicken carcasses a week. 2 of the dogs are fosters though so it is normally less than that.