jesomil

Too funny. I dont know what to say that could be at all useful to OP. Experience is a wonderful thing.

I see now. Thanks for all the info. This could be why your dog has the working traits that it does. Very interesting. I like the look of Koolies too. The colours have always fascinated me.

How is the way your dog works different to a Kelpie? Does it have less eye or do you mean because it is more of a full on type dog? Mooper, I think dogs like yours need to stay only in the round yard until you have a good level of control on them otherwise the sheep can get a bit distressed. Sounds like he has a lot of fun though. K&P - i havent seen a Koolie like possum before. I have only seen the merles. How is your dog different from a border as they look very similar? Was she from a breeder? Maybe i should go look up some koolie websites to learn more.

OMG this topic has already got 13 replies and i havent even seen it!!!! Will go and read now................

Hey, have we gone really OT now Oops. Gee, my dog opens the back door and comes in when he wants and runs at a huge off lead dog park every day with lots of dogs. That is not going to affect their working ability for yard trials. The main thing is that they always know their place. If i tell him out, he lets himself back out the back door, if a dog is being strange at the park, he drops when told etc. As long as they know their place and know that you are the boss always and will always do as they are told. I read a great line on here the other day but i dont know who said it. It is "If you treat your dog like a human, they will treat you like a dog". I love it. So true. Its much easier to settle a full on dog than it is to bring up a quieter dog. I would prefer the full on dog any day for yard trials. To keep a dog off sheep, i start in the round yard and use the rake to keep it off. It learns that it will get hassled if coming in too close. I eventually add a "get out" command to this. In the paddock I will throw in lots of stops if getting in too close so the dog knows that if it comes in too close, i will keep stopping it. That tends to settle the dog down. I think maturity and lots of work helps. If a dog only sees sheep every now and then, then it is going to be excited and will take a while to settle. There are a few methods of doing this, but i have found this method has worked for me. I too have noticed that alot of Kelpies tend to be more forceful and pushy so they tend to do well in the yards. I have never seen a Koolie work or heard any sheepdog people talk about them. There are a few down at the dog park though. What are their strengths? What were they bred to do? Can you post piccys or is this going too far off topic?

I can guarantee that these things will not stop you from competing at top levels in yard trials. Why do you think these things would be a problem? Yes, there are the old dog men that treat them harsh and dont pat etc but alot of the youngies have their dogs inside with them and they win repeatedly. And these are working dogs too. The thing that will stop someone competing at top levels will more likely be the trainer and their methods. Oh and the dogs ability/breeding. Definately try and work at speed. Their tendancy is to go in hard and fast and be very pushy. It takes training and maturity to settle them down and to keep them off the sheep. I think working style is definately transmitted genetically. I think you can generalise about working breeds to some extent although there are always particular lines that will differ. For example, when you go to a 3 sheep trial it will be mainly borders, a yard trial will be mainly kelpies, therefore those breeds have traits that are more suited one way or the other. But a soft kelpie will not be suited to yard trials just as a pushy border will not be suited to 3 sheep. I would be interested to lure some more sheepdog people in here for more opinions though as my knowledge is limited on other breeds.

Not entirely sure what you mean but i will have a go. I dont do anything special to help the relationship. He is my special boy and i adore him but if you give him an inch he will take a mile so i always have to keep on top of his training and dont let him get away with anything. We do live in suburbia but are lucky in that he gets to work stock most days so that really helps.

Kavik, it depends alot on what strengths your dog has as what it will be most suited to be trained for. Some dogs are not suited to yard trials and others are not suited to 3 sheep. It depends on the dogs breeding. You are going to have alot of fun along the way though.

I see what you mean although you are referring to 3 sheep trials and 3 sheep dogs. I only have experience in yard trials which are based so closely on real work so i dont think there is a problem. But i can see what you mean if people are specifically breeding 3 sheep dogs.

;) Excellent !! I was feeling nervous about asking any more questions. I just think it is interesting to learn how others perceive sheep dog training and what they do. You can always learn something from everyone. These questions are asked in a completely friendly non judgemental way - Interesting thought. How do you think it would make them unsuitable for real work? I would have thought that the majority of pups sold go to working properties whereas only a very few would actually trial. I have never heard of anyone breeding for trialling. Trialling is an avenue to show off your breedings skills. There would never be a big enough market to breed only trialling dogs. Wow, i didnt know there was a third. I know of the show line and working line. Which is the other??

I guess a point too is that we all have different breeds. Kelpies are generally yard dogs. Very pushy, forceful and full of themselves. Not a timid or nervous bone in their body. (although their are some lines which are more paddocky) Therefore my commands and methods are suited to a hard, full on dog, whereas others methods may be more suited to a more sensitive dog. So i think you have so use whatever method suits your and your dogs personality that works for you.

Sorry if you are feeling picked on. Its not meant to be that way, except i guess you have done more posts on this thread about methods so we are just asking you more questions. No hard feelings. ;) I love herding discussions and want to see more. I guess we all have to remember that we have different dogs and different methods. Some of us are are aiming to play around with sheep for fun, which is great and some of us are aiming to win trials. So some methods will not work for winning trials but that is not what everyone is after. Just as long as the OP knows that there are lots of different people with different experience levels on here. Everyone has different ideas.

I would say most working bred dogs do this naturally. They go back and forth in arcs bringing the sheep to you. This wont work in a trial situation where you need side commands when you need the dog to work off balance. How would you stand in the middle and direct the dog to move the sheep around you in a circle? How about when in a paddock and you need to move the sheep in another direction that is not straight towards you, how do you do this without side commands? This is always what i have seen it to mean and i think it is a good idea. I think as a handler, you have the right to call the dog to you any time and for any reason and it should be the one command. It should do it because it is told to, not because it may or may not get rewarded.

I dont understand how you would achieve this. How do you teach left and right with this method? Maybe i have just misread this as i dont understand. How about just using the one command. The dog comes to you regardless of whether or not it is going to work the sheep again. I would think you had recall problems if the dog didnt come regardless. I am just a touch confused about the commands being used here. Sorry, i dont mean to be a pain here.

Hmm, I see i will have to do some more research into it as i can see we would need to be careful in some areas. I agree with the restricted use idea. I can imagine it would be one hell of a fight to get the law reversed and maybe even impossible, but maybe getting the law changed to restricted use only might work. I will have to do a bit more thinking about. Its a topic that people can get very emotional and heated about.

Hi all, I was shocked when i moved down to Melbourne to find that prongs are illegal down here. Someone also stated that Victoria is the only state in the world to have them made illegal. That is just crazy. Is this another not so clever, uneducated move by Hugh Wirth?? My problem is, i dont know where to start to try and get this law changed. How come everyone is just accepting the law? Is it possible to try and get it changed? I know of heaps of people who would become involved in trying to change it. Any ideas on how one could go about this?? By the way, this is NOT a discussion on the use of equiptment or training methods. If you dont like the prong, please dont take part in this discussion. Thanks.

You can use whatever commands you like but the ones i use are: Round - go clockwise around sheep Over - go anticlockwise Stop - stop in a stand position Sit - sit and dont move Get in - to push or bite Speak - to bark Get up - to jump on the sheeps back Here - come to me Get out - back off from the sheep I use these for a yard dog and these are all the commands we need. I like stop to mean stand as they are only stopping for a sec and they are better able to jump into action quickly. Sit means sit and dont move until asked. I find this very handy in some situations. I have taught sit and here without sheep and the others are best taught in a round yard with a rake. Teaching stop is easiest with a rake when the pup is distracted by the sheep. When you say stop, you block them from being able to get to the sheep. You keep blocking with the rake until they stop. When they stop, you lavish praise. With round and over, you say the command and then guide them around the sheep in the desired direction. Sheepdogs are really quick learners and catch on to commands very quickly. I dont use food rewards with any sheep work. The sheep are such a high motivation, most dogs will ignore food in this situation. They have to learn to come to you because you called them. I use the same recall command wherever we are. If you were doing obedience and wanted a nice straight sit infront of you, i would use a different command. My dog learnt all his commands as a pup with ducks in a round yard in our backyard. We love the ducks as we dont have the space for sheep. Everything he has learnt from the ducks has transferred straight over to the sheep as he only sees sheep on the weekend and now he is a competing yard dog!!

I think raw is best and i think BARF is the ideal dog diet. I have seen huge differences in dogs changing to a BARF diet. There is a huge difference in dog food quality out there. Some foods are down right nasty. I dont give my dogs any of the processed dog treats like pig ears. They get to chew on raw bones instead. There are heaps of differing opinions about dog diets and heaps of differing levels of experienced people out there. You are best to do as much research as you can and then make a decision. I personally feed my dogs about 2 nights a week dry, 3 nights a week bones (chicken frames etc), 2 nights a week barf patties. I like to stick to the BARF as much as possible but it doesnt always happen. It also depends on how much work they have done as to what or how much i will feed them.

Thanks for all your replies guys.

I have seen some brilliant CKCS competing at agility. I would highly recommend the breed for sports.

I once saw a full on fight during the stays. It was awful. I was dead scared leaving my dog in stays with this feral dog at the same level. Thankfully they finally realised their dog had major issues and stopped trialling. I have found that most of the time, the judge wont re run the stays except for extreme circumstances. A stay is a stay. I used to practise stays everywhere. I used to get off lead dogs running around and up to my dog and would get another dog to speak on command next to her. In the end, she wouldnt break a stay for anything.....well just about anything. I do hate stays though. They make me sick with worry during them. Once, we were on 198 in open. My highest score ever, i was so excited. After passsing the sit, we were walking back from the downs and there was my girl still perfectly down. I was bursting with pride and happiness. Just as i was returning to her at the last minute, she sat up. I can still feel the disapointment now, 8 years on.................

I would love to be involved in any way to change the prong legislation here in Victoria. I have been speaking about it to people for a while now but dont really know how to get started. I really think we should try and do something. I think it would be a big fight but really worth it

My beautiful Rotty went over the rainbow bridge one year ago. I didnt post last year as i couldnt bear the pain but it seems it isnt any easier this year. Life is still not the same without her, even though alot has happened since then. She was diagnosed with bone cancer 2 days before i found out i was pregnant. It was like she was saying that she had been my baby for 10 years and now it was time for her to move over as i would have a new baby. I didnt want her to go. If it wasnt for her, i wouldnt have met my husband. She was a once in a lifetime friend. I handraised her from the day she was born as her mum couldnt look after her. She came everywhere with me. She made me look like a great trainer when infact it was her wonderful nature and extreme trainability. We did so much together. I really wanted to care for her as she grew old. I wanted to be there for her when she got old and rickety. I owed it to her. Instead, she was taken when she was fit and shiny. She was still bouncy and youthful till the end. I will never forget having to say goodbye to her. It was surreal. I couldnt believe it was happening. The pain was unbearable. I will never love another dog so much. Jess 1/10/95 - 6/11/05

No it doesnt matter at all to pet owners. But the OP was asking our opinion on the changes.

;) This thread is interesting. Some people with limited experience with such firm beliefs. The whole coat and height debate has become confused. I think we are talking about desexing young here. In some breeds they will get a thicker, fluffier coat when desexed eg. cocker. Some breeds left entire will get a bigger coat eg. border collie. It all comes down to the individual breed with the coat. I dont think short haired dogs class as "coat". If a dog is desexed at 3 years, of course it is not suddenly going to grow taller. There will probably be a coat change though, if it is one of the breeds affected. The great thing about this forum is that you can always learn something. No matter how much experience and how many years you have or havent been involved in dogs, you never know everything. I find it interesting to read everyones views and think them through before keeping or discarding them.