jesomil

Hey Superminty, Cash looks like he knows what he is doing. Thats great you have booked into the training day, it should be good. You must say hi as i have no idea who you are.

Hi WorkNBCs, thanks for sharing those videos. Your dog looks great !! Bring on the new ewe lambs though :D Its great seeing how other breeds work. I really like the weaving exercise, it really makes the dog concentrate and be precise with its commands. Any more vids anyone?

I think you have to be very careful starting a pup early. They can get injured and loose their confidence so easily with sheep. They dont know when to stop and they would keep herding till they collapsed if allowed. Sheep can also get quite aggressive. Our current pup is 4 1/2 months and she has been worked on sheep infrequently to show she has the traits we are after but for now we are just working on teaching the sit and come and letting her grow up a little. It is very tempting to have her out working everyday because it is amazing to see young pups work stock, but we know she has the instinct in her, so we are letting her grow up a bit more. She will still be the same in a couple of months but just be that much bigger. We have grand plans for her so we are trying to do everything we can to avoid any negative experiences. My adult dog was started as a baby puppy (7wks) on ducks. He was worked for 1-2 mins a few times a week. He didnt get overdone and he couldnt get injured. He started on sheep as a pup but it was with dogged sheep and i kept an eye on the sheep at all times to protect him if necessary. We always had the 2 minute rule when working him. He has turned out better than i could have imagined but maybe we were lucky that he never got bashed by a sheep and never got too tired or over pressured. I guess like everything it depends on the situation. We worked with a fantastic trainer who has started hundreds of pups and so the training was always in control. I think most people that i have spoken to believe it is best to wait for the pup to grow a little. I think starting around 5 -6 months is good although some people wait much, much longer. Depends on facilities, handlers experience, dog, stock etc etc etc. (my experience is fairly limited, so this is my opinion only from my experience so far)

I was just about to say that the best sheep dog trainer i have ever seen uses round yards very well but and then i find he has been mentioned. I went to a Greg Prince workshop and it was fantastic. He uses the round yard brilliantly. Wally, i have seen a few dogs look for the sheep when trying to work ducks. We have ducks at home so we will definately be entering the duck trial as well. Hi Vickie, its exciting starting a new pup isnt it!! We are now trying to make a few less mistakes than what we did with the first pup. How old is your pup?

We just started our new pup last weekend. Instead of the round yard, we started her in a large yard/small paddock. Interestingly enough, it worked really well with her. We had suitable sheep and as she is a more paddocky type, she went very well. My adult dog was a lot of work keeping him off stock,so i found in a big round yard, i could keep control of what was happening, but this new pup is naturally more wide so the paddock has worked well. Do you think the suitability of a round yard has something to do with what they are bred for? A more paddocky dog might feel too cooped in in a yard and needs the paddock or a yard dog needs the confinement to start with to control the natural in your face tendancies? Just having a guess here. I definately think that starting in both the round yard or paddock can be bad if used innapropriately. Hi Wally, I wasnt at the Warragul trial last year but am entering this year. Are you?

Well said WorkNBCs I agree with everything you say.

Hi, For any interested Victorians, there is a sheepdog training day being run at Warragul on the 10th March 9am - 4pm. It is being run by a brilliant trainer and should be a great day of learning. We will be there. It is for pups through to triallers. For the contact details etc please PM me.

Tmc, I agree with what you say about the videos but could that be due to an inexperienced handler? And could the yard have been utilised better if handled differently? The puppy is simply chasing the sheep around in circles which is not teaching it anything.

Good points raised. My experience is only with yard bred dogs so maybe that is why the round yard works best for them as far as i can tell. Maybe the more paddocky dogs with the right kind of sheep are a little more suited to starting in a paddock. The yard i have started in is fairly big and the pup moves out of it fairly quickly only to return for brush ups. With all the dogs that turn up to training, i cannot imagine working them without a yard, it would be chaos. But then again, different situation, dogs and experience levels.

I cannot imagine training a young dog without a round yard. If you let a young dog go in a paddock with sheep, you have no control. The dog will most likely split the sheep, the sheep will run and you have to catch the dog. In a round yard, you have control of the situation. You are close enough to stop any unwanted behaviour and protect the dog if necessary. I only let the dog out of the round yard once he has mastered the basics and you have control of him. Hey crash test dummy, when were you at Warragul? Thats were i go but havent been for a month as i have been away.

I wouldnt necessarily agree on this and have never thought about it in this way. I dont think we should be adding exercises that involve everyday life. I like the exercises as they are because they involve training a dog for varied behaviours. I agree with the jumps height comments. I think they should be lower as it is not a jumping competition rather than the dog negotiating the obstacle. I think that a dog having to qualify at club level before it trialled would be an excellent idea an may stop some of the problems of people entering before they are ready. And i think it would be a good idea for any dog that moved in the stays to be removed immediately by a steward before it had the chance to disrupt or be aggressive to another dog. I can clearly remember the times having to leave my dog next to a known aggressor desperately hoping the dog wouldnt get up. The dogs should be conditioned to have people moving around them in the stays so it wouldnt be a problem.

:D

Interesting. Rusky, i am not having a go at you directly but it is a common thing about purely positive training that i have heard many times that bothers me. It is the fact that management is more often used then actually fixing the behaviour. Why not fix the behaviour, and if aversives fix the behaviour then so be it. Because barking is extremely annoying to other people and dogs. It is very hard to concentrate on your own dog when there is a barking dog driving you crazy. I would stop the dog barking immediately if it was my dog. My purely positive friends that are the dog trainers have said on occassion that some dogs simply cant be let off lead. So instead of perhaps adding an aversive and correcting the behaviour, they no nothing of these methods so the dog spends the rest of its life on lead. Keep in mind, that i am all for positive training and use it most of the time but i simply believe that there are some situations and some dogs thats require different methods. It is not a one method suits all.

I totally agree with the above post. Oops ETA i was refering to the post above the last post. When i say adversives, with my current dog, i mainly mean a sharp AAHHH !!! I enjoy teaching him behaviours with the clicker and all his puppy training was done with food. All his current obedience training is taught with a tug toy. I dont think this thread has become positive verses negative as it seems most people here use a healthy balance of the two. Negatives are never used in the training phase. I think it has only become a bit of positive only verses pos/neg when people make broad statements about their method of training without being able to back it up.

Back when i was obedience trialling, i had 3 dogs i was competing with and working full time. I would rotate the dogs when training them and I think it made them more keen when their time came around. No jealousy at all. I had a definate favourite but i dont think they knew. I think i had the time to train because that was basically all i did on weeknights and weekends. I was a member of 4 clubs and would also meet with like minded friends at night to train our dogs. It was great back then.

Its great reading all the replies. I think with training, it is best to always have an open mind and that is why i asked the initial question. There is no point someone arguing something that they have limited experience in. You can always learn something. If positive only training works with your dog and your personality and what you want to do with the dog, that is great, but i dont believe it is possible to train any dog for anything with no aversives.

What happens when you need a recall and you dont have that particular item on you? I think it is safe to say that we are all dog lovers here and are very interested in training our dogs and discussing methods. There is no room for beating a dog in any form of training. You will not achieve a thing. I think a few positive people fall into the trap of when hearing aversive they think the dog is being beaten and abused. By aversive, i mean anything that shows your displeasure, be it chasing the dog down, grabbing it by the scruff, a correction on the collar, even a sharp AH AH. Whatever works for the dog and handler. :D I would love to see this. You obviously have a very good understanding of positive recall training and i would love to see it work. I have seen so many people try the concept but have never seen it actually work. Yes, i have read that book. It is brilliant. Dont get me wrong, i love positive training and use it wherever possible. Do you need several years of experience behind you to be able to get accurate results from your dog? I would be interested to hear more about training this. What if you have an adult dog who has had several wins chasing rabbits? What positive motivation can you use to stop it? I mean without taking 5 years of training? You have obviously put alot of time and effort into teaching your dogs very thoroughly what it means. That works just great with a pup. Coming to you will not be the best thing in the world later on. What about with a dog that doesnt give a toss about food or toys? What about if i dont want to have to carry food on me most of the time? Can you make your dog spin on the spot under very heavy distraction to come to you? Positive training works brilliantly with aversives. They mix together beautifully. Aversives are not used in the training phases. I am not talking about obedience trialling here. There are lots of working dogs that are trained using positive training but i have never seen any that never use adversives. ETA sorry, my quotes didnt work?!?!?! it makes for a long any boring read, sorry.

I have been reading the thread about training a reliable recall at the dog park and want some opinions. I have had a few discussions with people about methods used and i have come to my own conclusion that you cant get a reliable recall using a reward method. I have found that the only dogs who recall very well most of the time have been trained with aversives. Maybe i have only come across people using the reward method ineffectively? There are 3 "professional" trainers that i can think of that have dogs that still require a food pouch and treating where ever they go and their dogs recall is good under heavy distraction only if they throw in the recall the split second before they are off. I am talking about recalling off very heavy distraction, not just a basic recall. I would be interested in others opinions on this. I am very happy to be corrected if i am wrong. Basically i have never seen or heard of a dog who recalls most of the time off anything that has been only positively trained. Would be interested to see if it is possible. Thanks. By the way, i am not asking for advice on how to teach the recall myself. My method works very well and i am happy with it. Just more questioning others methods and their effectivness.

no way !!!

My aim for this year was to enter my dog in his first trial. I wasnt sure if i could manage it with also having a baby earlier in the year and it being a sport i have never competed in, but we did it, and got placings !! I am so proud of my dog. He is great. We plan to start regularly trialling next year and who knows what will happen.

This will not work with a pup that has herding instinct. A pup with instinct will try to herd them regardless and not give up. This method would probably work with a pup with only a chase instinct. Depends on how your pup is wired. Totally agree. Not that easy. If you want to do any form of herding in the future i would recommend keeping them totally separate and not letting her chase them at all. When you want to try herding, get the help of an experienced person with sheep or ducks. You could really turn her off and cause bad habits by doing anything else. On the otherhand, if you want to repress a chase instinct, it can be done. I used to have free range chooks with my non working bred dogs with no troubles. They were working dogs as far as breed but not hard wired working bred dogs. You pup may well be able to live happily with them in the future but will require maturity and training.

My first trialling dog (rotty) i had as a pet then got into trialling through the local club. The next dog i got as a showdog then happened to also get into trialling. My current trialling dog i researched for and got the best breeding for the traits i was after. It has really been worthwhile. I will in future only get dogs that fit whatever i am wanting to do with them. I really want to get another rotty down the track and would love a working line Malinios to compete with.

I have seen the forced retrieve produce confident, happy retrievers when used properly. I have not used it as i have found the positive retrieve so far to work well for my situations but i wouldnt be against using it if required. Of course i am talking purely about the retrieve exercises in an obedience trial, not playing fetch at the park. If a dog doesnt want to play fetch in the park, who cares? If you have a brilliant trial dog but are stuck at one exercise, i dont believe you would cast everything else aside and start afresh with a dog that was a natural retriever just for one exercise. Interesting topic of discussions and some very interesting replies.

Thanks for your informative post Redapple. Its good to see there are rules in place about biting dogs. As i said before i have no knowledge or experience with ANKC herding at all, so i am just going of what i have been told. Would people really try to preserve some form of instinct in their lines? Wouldnt they breed firstly for looks/temperament? What is the point of preserving it in the breeding programs? If they wanted working abililty and started breeding for it, it would become like the working lines except the working lines are already a long way ahead. If someone wanted a working dog, they wouldnt go for a show bred dog that happened to have a good instinct, they would go straight for a working line that would guarantee them a worker. Do working bred dogs compete in the herding? I would be very interested to look at the ANKC title requirements. Are they on the net? I only base my comments on what i have heard. I have heard that the dogs dont need to do much at all for the initial title. Is the Advanced level A and B the highest level? Sorry for all my questions but it would be good to have some more facts out there. It is interesting.

You bring up many debates that are very interesting. I would love to learn more about them and the reasoning behind them, but is that classed as too off topic? By saying this, i am not necessarily talking about dogs kept in backyards, i also mean the dogs on properties that have no real work. There are lots of great handlers/dogs that live on the land but dont have any real work. They are not much different to the city people. It would make it a small yard trialling scene if only the real workers were involved. It is just a sport like lots of others. I guess there are pros and cons to many sports involving animals. I am very interested to see what others say about your points. They are very interesting and good food for thought.