jesomil

Can you please answer this one?

I read that whole thread you are talking about. I dont know you any better than i do any of the other posters but I believe it is not as you are saying it is. I think people on a forum have to be very open minded and willing to listen to others as we all have different experience and most of us dont know each other. It is easy to become emotional and defensive over something you feel passionately about.

Wow !!!........ on many accounts. ETA Very sneaky Myszka . There do seem to be alot of similarities and opinions though.

Ok, here are my comments. First of all your Dad is a really good sport for doing all that videoing for you!! My parents didnt really approve of all my dog stuff when i was younger :D , so i always love to see parents that are keen to help. I only watched Leo's vids tonight as there are quite a few of them and i dont have too much time at the moment. Plus Kinta is only a baby so i dont want to be too hard on her :D . He looks great as always but there are 3 things that stood out for me. Just remember i am being super picky as he is good. It is also a bit hard to see on the videos so i may be seeing things wrong. Firstly his turns. They were slightly wide quite a few times. His left turns would look a bit better if he tucked his back end in when you turned. The drop signal is too obvious. Your body shouldnt bend at all. He is not a small dog and he is looking up at you anyway so i dont believe you need to signal in front of his face. Left about turns. I know Poodlesplus said this as well, but i also dont like the look of the turns where the dog walks around you instead of the dog backing up. I am sure it wont loose you points but for the overall picture, it looks better, flashier and more driven if they can back up. Just my opinion though and feel free to ignore all of it :D . You guys are doing great .

Whats a FOO night?? I used FR with my first dog and didnt get fantastic results. Could have been because i was a novice handler?? Next dog i used free shaping (thanks for the right name PAX ) and i had a brilliant trainer and a driven dog. It took about 2 weeks to have a good solid formal retrieve. She never lost any points in a trial from her retrieves. I liked free shaping for that dog because it had her out and back so fast and with such enthusiasm and precision. With the dog i am training now, i have been free shaping the dumbell but he is not as food motivated and is being a little slow with it and i am getting bored. May have to try option B with him.

I am sure there is a fancy name for this but i dont know it so will just describe it. I put the dumbell on the ground and waited for the dog to look at it. When he did, i said yes and rewarded. Then i waited for a nose touch, said yes and rewarded. Over several short training sessions i upped what i wanted so i rewarded a nose touch, then a pick up etc etc and kept asking for more and rewarding till i got the whole retrieve happening. It is such a great way of teaching it because the dog is practically begging you to say fetch in the end. They love it.

I treat mine all the same. I dont think about order of feeding, I just put all the bowls down and they will get whichever bowls lands near them. I do give my boy more affection as he is so good and so nice to be around. The pup gets more attention in the form of training as she is just a baby. The teenagers, well.....................

No, I believe that alot of dogs out there will never challenge their owner for top dog position so it never is a problem. Their owners really dont have to think alot about it as chances are no matter what they do, their dog will never challenge them. So long as the owner is sensible and trains them etc. But there certainly are some dogs who are more prone to challenging their owners and that is where practises have to be implemented to let the dog know its position. My dogs all run through the door before me, will sometimes be higher than me, i will step over them when asleep, they may put their paws on me and eat before me but i dont really see these things as pack elevators. They all know that they are at the bottom plus they dont really have the temperaments to want to be leaders. I think it depends so much more on the owner and the temperament of the dog more than anything. If a challenging dog doesnt have a strong leader then the leader has to concentrate and make sure all they do keeps them at the top. The same dog with a strong leader would probably never challenge as the leader naturally exudes leadership. I dont think you have to be really clear to get ahead in training. If you have a good drive, good bond together with good training techniques, then you will get ahead just fine. Interesting and controversial topic. I believe it does work . But i also believe that 99% of people couldnt do it effectively or have the correct mindset for why it is done. So i think with the right dog, the right reason and the right handler, it doers work. But i would always suggest people to never do it because it is so easy to get it wrong and have really negative results. ETA Vicki just said everything i was trying to say in a few lines. Some people are so much better at saying things and being straight to the point ;) .

Totally agree. I started my new pup on the tug as soon as i got her home at 8 weeks. I also have a one year old child. The puppy knows that she can bite as much as she wants on the tug but not on the child. Maybe the tug gives them a outlet for all the biting they love to do. ETA I think it has a bit to do why why you are teaching your dog to tug and your relationship with the dog. I wouldnt have taught my pup to tug if i didnt require it for training.

Steve is great . His wife Vicki started me in obedience trialling about 10 years ago and taught me so much. He is so nice to everyone regardless of who you are or what experience you have. We used to all go to the pub after training and he gave me such a huge amount of his time to talk training.

Sorry to go a touch OT but i too was surprised when i went to seminar of his on motivational training and tricks. I was surprised on many levels as i had heard so many great things about him. I didnt find him any different than anyone else who trains in the same fashion and came away with zip too.

How very interesting about the jackal. That puts a whole new slant on things!! How do we know that dogs descended from Wolves? Or is it just something that people assumed?

It is really good hearing everyones opinions. So much to think about. I am embarrassed to admit it, but i found myself lying awake in the early hours of this morning thinking through pack structure. How sad is that . I have never noticed a "leader" as such but i do notice that females tend to be a bit bossier perhaps. Very good question, I hadnt thought of that. I would be very interested to hear peoples opinions on this.

I had never experienced such high drives till i got my Kelpie. When he sees his prey item, the rest of the world is blacked out, nothing else exists and he will do anything to get it. You could shoot a gun over his head and i dont think he would loose focus. He is so fast and easy to get high level of motivation in training but I think my medium drive dog was easier to train in obedience as she loved her food and toy but wasnt quite so full on about it. Her drives were easier to mange as she was a little slower and more controlled. By the way, i am not complaining, i wouldnt swap high drives for anything!! I was amused one day to see 3 entire males all glued to a little hole in the sheep fencing that they could see through. They were all standing on top of each other but didnt notice as they were watching their sheep. It was amazing because in any other situation, males would have been getting all blokey and toey with each other, but because they have such high drives, they didnt even know the other dogs were there. Has that story any relevance to the thread......... I dont know

;) I think it is just a given that your posts are always awesome, and well written. Sorry i forgot you earlier ;) . Hi Lilli. From what you are saying, there are some breeds who have more of the wolf style pack structure. Very interesting. Thanks for the link Sardog, i am off to go and check it out!!

Definately count me in for a donation too!! Would really like to see the legislation changed.

As always, great post Kelpie-i. You have basically said what i thought goes on with a domesticated dog pack. I just got a bit confused because some people were adament on the set structure of our dogs and i was finding that hard to understand and believe. This is exactly how i would describe my dogs also. ETA sory i forgot to mention great posts Cosmolo and Erny and everyone else who gave their opinions. There is lots to think about!!

As always Amhailte, excellent posts . I very much agree with this. I found a particular story of Cesar Milans interesting. Series 1 episode 16 and i will quote directly from it. It is a story about 3 dogs living together and the 2 bitches have started fighting sometimes. Cesar says, "Everytime a dog behaves dominant in a household around the other dogs, 99% of the time the owner is not in total control. When the owner has 100% control, they dont play dominant rules". He also says "The whole pack walks together. When you go to work, they must be left alone tired. If you choose to live with a pack, you must take on the responsibility". "With a calm submissive mind, they will relate as family and will help each other, not destroy each other". Cesar treats all his pack as number 2. I dont believe we humans should try and inforce who plays what role within a pack. Alot of pack problems seem to stem from there not being a strong enough leader and the dogs/s being spoilt or leader having favouritism. I think we confuse dogs by not being a strong leader or by only being a strong leader sometimes. Whether you agree with Cesar or not, i think he makes some valid points.

I would be interested in peoples opinions on this topic especially some of the gurus. First up in a pack there is the leader, then there are the others. I think we all agree on that. Do you think the others are are in set rank position right down to the bottom dog or do you think the rank is something that changes regularly or do you think there is no rank at all?? Can you number exactly which dog is in which position? I am interested in peoples opinions because i would not know who was what with my dogs. They seem to all be fairly equal. Sometimes one of them seems a little more dominant but then the next minute another may seem dominate. Never anything major, just little subtle things. My boy is dominant with other dogs out of the house but in our little pack, they all seem to be the same. Thanks for your opinions

Ok, i will clarify for you as i must have come across in a confusing manner :D Whether my own dogs have their own heirarchy, i am not sure. I am a pretty strong leader and never allow any shananigans so therefore i dont ever see any signs of one bossing the other etc. They all seem pretty equal. I have seen plenty of other people having probs with their dogs pack order and certainly see others allowing a dog to stand over another etc. Hope i have cleared things up for you

Heck, there is no argueing going on!! We simply have different experiences, that all. I am here to learn just like everyone and am merely putting across an opinion. I find this whole area of thought very interesting. Whether my own dogs have a set heirarchy, i am not sure, but i have certainly seen it with other peoples dogs and i think it had to do with the owners management of the dogs. I may be right, i may be worng. I would think it had more to do with the owner, you think it has more to do with management of the heirarchy. Thats ok, we have different ideas based purely on our own experiences and i for one am happy to learn more. Where are the gurus when we need them!!

What does the spunky mexican say about all this? I have heard him say that he is number 1 and his pack members are all number 2. I bet there are no rank fights in his huge pack!! Ohh, i have seen it many, many times but it simply is not allowed in my pack, thats all.

I didnt, i said this :D

The way i understand it, it does change and there are many factors that can cause a change. I dont know about others, but i have never really been able to identify "pack order" in my dogs. Not sure about us humans sustaining heirarchy..... but i could be wrong :D I believe the owner is the leader and the others are the followers. Whether they have their own heirarchy, i am not sure. Oh, and i forgot to add before about the lock jaw. Such an old wives tale and one i havent heard in ages.

I have never had a prong come undone either. I cant imagine how they can when they are fitted properly. They are quite hard to get undone even when not on the dog. Maybe it has something to do with the quality of it.