anthony mazzeri

I know. It seems you've misread my post. EDIT: Or perhaps there's confusion where I say 'list', which I'm referring to the list of foods/brands compared. Apologies for the confusion.

'Customer Champion' is her official title? Should be 'Sales Manager'. Sneaky sod infers the problem with Orijen was due to the ingredients, by pointing out that Eagle Pack uses 'human grade' and no 'un-natural chemicals - thereby that inferring Orijen does. The main issue, the irradiation, is relegated to just an 'also..' in the next paragraph. She should be a politician.

This is a good example of showing how the main ingredients are up to the first named fat or oil. If you look past the chicken fat listed third, the fifth ingredient is flavour. What would that be, about 0.05%? And the rest after that drop even lower percentage the further along the list you go. The 'chicken' listed fourth after the fat I'm guessing would probably be about 10% (has to be less than the fat/oil percentage) and makes up the bulk of the minor ingredients. This is a pretty good food as it's near pure just processed chicken and potato and little else. Actually, most of the foods on the list are pretty good. It's only when you get lower down into the list and things like corn and gluten start appearing as main ingredients (ie the bulk percentage of the food) is where the questions start getting raised.

I watched that Jamie Oliver TV special about chickens a month or two back. Almost put me off chicken for life. But the meal is not as bad as that. Because they process millions of chickens in a chicken processing plant, what they put through the machine is all chicken. And it comes out the other end as a gloopy paste. Manufacturers then take this paste and reconstruct it into things like McNuggets or chicken rolls/slices etc. That was just for human food-chicken processing. There was a large bin with rejected chicken carcassess (ammonia burns, illness, injured etc) plus all the non-flesh bits like feet, heads, beaks etc that get removed for packaging. I assume this is not wasted and goes into another paste-machine. If it does, I don't know whether this reject paste is eventually mixed with some of the human-grade paste to make 'petfood grade' meal or whether the petfood industry actually uses the same grade that goes into McNuggets etc that we eat ourselves. Maybe even that's the difference between cheaper brands more expensive brands, the different type of meal they use. I'll have to watch it again if it's shown again to pay more attention to what actually goes into the paste machine. He had one on stage with him to show how it worked and the gloop that came out.

I've gone back to Royal Canin Medium Junior. I had a new sealed bag sitting there for 6 months (use by date April next year) from when I changed over to Orijen and kept forgetting to take it back for a refund. So I opened it up on Friday and they've been wolfing it down better than they did the Orijen. Especially the younger one. She literally hoovers the bowl clean which she didn't do before - today for the first time ever, she finished hers first! I'll be getting a bag of Royal Canin Medium tomorrow for the grown-up. Keep the youngster on the Junior for a while longer yet.

Interesting. I've noticed that happening over the last month or so too, compared to all 100% firm for the first 6-8 months on it. I've been trying to work out why, and now it seems I'm not alone. There may be something to this. Here's a theory - what's on the shop shelves were all brought in in the original shipment 6 months ago and the irradiation is causing it to lose its shelf-life. Or worse, a slow chemical reaction or decomposition. So it was fine a few months ago, but not now. It's supposed to have a shelf life (unopened) of a year or so, but who can expect any organic material to reman unaffected after being soaked in lethal doses of gamma radiation. Gamma rays is what turned Bruce Banner into the Hulk, wasn't it? Or am I thinking of Spiderman?

And that's with the irradiation depleting all the vitamins and goodness out of it. Imagine how good it would be without irradiation! I'd suggest giving Royal Canin a try if you want something similar to Orijen. It has a small amount to grain used to hold the kibble's shape or something like that (whereas Orijen has none), but otherwise you should expect the same in regards to all the things you mention you got from Orijen. If anything, I'd say RC poos are even smaller and firmer (and darker) than Orijen's.

Excellent stuff, Lene. Let me know as soon as they reply and I'll adjust the list accordingly. Poocow, being Australia, I'd hazard a guess it'd most likely be wheat or sorghum. It *was* Orijen by a country mile at 40% protein or something like that, followed by Royal Canin if I recall from memory. Ziwipeak is up there as well I think. Great Barko with all it's meat content is 22% protein which is similar to most of the rest which range from around 18% to 24%. It's also the type of protein you should look at, ie, is it the vegetable protein in the corn?

Very true bcgsd. Which is why I'd like to try out a sample pack to see for myself.

PS. Only two of the foods out of all those listed use dehydrated meat, which are Royal Canin and Ziwipeak. For sake of definition, dehydrated meat is a different thing to animal meal.

About.com AAFCO Definition: Chicken Meal Yes, quantity-wise meal is better as the meat's water volume gives it a misleading place in the ingredients list by pre-cooked weight as the water is lost during cooking so it's not as major an ingredient as it's label placement would have it. But quality-wise it's not superior to meat. The same as the petfood itself, the quality of the meal is dependent on the percentage of meat in it. By human standards at any rate. There's an argument that by-products like lungs, spleens, liver, kidneys, brain, and other unsightly innards I wouldn't want to see on my own plate actually make for a superior diet for dogs and cats than an actual meat (muscle tissue) diet, especially in the amino acid content.

What comes out the other end seems to be just as important as what goes in when it comes to dog food. Your experience is not making Artemis sound like an ideal option.

Can I take advantage of that too? How do I contact her to arrange a sample pack? Edit: This is Artemis you're talking about?

I just gave both of mine Royal Canin Junior (need to get an adult pack tomorrow) and they both hoovered it up better than they did the Orijen. The younger girl especially, head down and ate the whole bowl non-stop where before she would pause and/or wander off before coming back to the bowl, often several times. And the kibble's about the same size and texture as Orijen, but the crunching sounds while they were eating was a lot louder. So I'm assuming that means it's better for their teeth cleaning anyway.

I simply wasn't aware of that, thanks. I'll leave it in the list like Orijen for those who were using it before to still see the comparison. NB. I've also moved Dick Van Patten's above Artemis Maximal as 'meat' beats 'meal' as one of the first ingredients.

I've added ARTEMIS Fresh Mix and ARTEMIS Maximal Dog to the above list. Also decided to add Orijen to show how it compares. Compared.

Alas, it's not a matter of 'if' any more. Orijen is pulling out of Australia, so it's not a choice any more. I'm going back to Royal Canin. It was at the top of the ingredient list I posted in the other thread, until Orijen came along. And now it's back at the top again. I mentioned in another thread that I tried DVP's Natural Balance and it smelled so good I was tempted to try it myself. The kibble is much larger than Orijen though which requires several crunches to swallow. Maybe good for teeth as well then.

I posted this last year when I was researching food for my new pup. Now that Orijen's out of the game, time to go through it again. Thought it may be helpful to others in the same situation. This list is based purely on the order of the main ingredients only being those listed only up to the first named fat or oil, in descending order of 'card hands' as best I could. It does not address at all any of the minor ingredients which may also affect any decision, ie grains, preservatives, flavours etc. Animal beats vegetable (animal protein beats vegetable protein). 'Dehydrated animal meat' beats 'animal meal' which beats 'animal by-product meal'. 'Animal meat' loses a lot of it's volume when processed, so should be placed further along any ingredient list. Barley and/or rice beats corn and/or wheat. NOTE 1: These are puppy kibble, or suitable for puppies. Adult formulas may differ. NOTE 2: A kibble may have grain as a minor ingredient not listed here as a main ingredient. THE LIST: ROYAL CANIN Medium Junior Dehydrated poultry meat, animal fats, other NATURE'S GIFT Tasty Beef and Rice *100% AUSTRALIAN* Fresh Beef, Beef Liver, Australian Meat Meals, Whole Grain Wheat, Sucrose, Rice, Food Acid (338), Glycerine, Sea Salt, Canola Oil, other I'm placing this one second despite the wheat because it doesn't properly follow the 'first fat/oil' rule, eg food acid and salt are listed before the canola oil. Thanks to a call to the company by JulesP, we're informed the first three meats and meal make up 70% of the total which makes all other ingredients minor. Like Royal Canin and Great Barko, the wheat is just used as a binding agent. So re-writing the main ingredients to match the fat/oil rule so as to better compare to the rest of the kibbles in this list, it beats Great Barko into second place with the main ingredients written this way: Fresh Beef, Beef Liver, Australian Meat Meals, Canola Oil, other GREAT BARKO Tasty Beef and Lamb *100% AUSTRALIAN* Cooked meat or meat by-products derived from beef, lamb, chicken, pork, cooked fish or fish by-products, fat, other Must be less strict rules for ingredients in Australia - eg, the use of the word 'or' in Great Barko's ingredient list, ie meat 'or' meat by-products. UPDATE: After a phone call by JulesP, they say their ingredients are actually meal, which keeps Great Barko in third place with the main ingredients written this way: Meat Meal, Fish Meal, Fat(unknown, assume animal fat), other ORIJEN Puppy NO GRAIN **DEFUNCT** Deboned chicken, chicken meal, turkey meal, russet potato, lake whitefish, chicken fat, other INNOVA EVO Small Bites NO GRAIN Turkey, Chicken, Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Potatoes, Herring Meal, Chicken Fat, other ARTEMIS Fresh Mix Medium / Large Breed Puppy Chicken, Turkey, Chicken Meal, Salmon Meal, Pearled Barley, Whole Brown Rice, Oatmeal, Millet, Potatoes, Dried Egg, Tomato Pomace, Chicken Fat, other INNOVA Puppy Turkey, Chicken, Chicken Meal, Ground Barley, Ground Brown Rice, Cottage Cheese, Tomatoes, Sunflower Oil, Chicken Fat, other DICK VAN PATTEN'S NATURAL BALANCE Ultra Premium Chicken, Brown Rice, Lamb Meal, Oatmeal, Barley, Duck Meal, Potatoes, Carrots, Chicken Fat, other ARTEMIS Maximal Dog NO GRAIN Chicken Meal, Potatoes, Chicken Fat, other CANIDAE All Life Stages - Chicken & Rice - NOT YET AVAILABLE IN AUSTRALIA Chicken Meal, Brown Rice, White Rice, Chicken Fat, other EAGLE PACK Holistic Select - Chicken Meal & Rice Chicken Meal, Ground Brown Rice, Ground White Rice, Oatmeal, Chicken Fat, other NUTRO CHOICE Puppy Lamb & Rice **DEFUNCT** Lamb Meal, Rice Flour, Rice Bran, Rice Gluten, Ground Rice, Dried Beet Pulp, Soybean Oil, other NUTRIENCE Chicken meal, brewers rice, ground corn, chicken fat, other OMNIPRO Puppy Formula Chicken Meal, Rice, Ground Yellow Corn, Corn Flour, Chicken Fat, other EAGLE PACK Premium Small/Medium Puppy Chicken Meal, Ground Yellow Corn, Chicken Fat, other PURINA PROPLAN Puppy Chicken and Rice Chicken, brewers rice, poultry by-product meal, corn gluten meal, whole grain wheat, animal fat, other ADVANCE Puppy Growth Chicken and chicken by-products, corn, sorghum, rice, chicken tallow, other SUPERCOAT Puppy Meat and meat by-products (from chicken and beef), wholegrain cereals (wheat and/or sorghum, rice), wheat bran, beet pulp, whole linseeds, other EUKANUBA Puppy Medium Growth Formula Chicken, Corn Meal, Chicken By-Product Meal, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Fish Meal, Chicken Fat, other NATURAL BALANCE (NOT Dick Van Patten's) *100% AUSTRALIAN* Rice, Australian lamb, corn gluten meal, tallow, other PEDIGREE Puppy Corn, rice, vegetable protein, meat and meat by-products derived from beef, mutton and chicken, tallow, other HILL'S SCIENCE DIET Puppy Original Ground Whole Grain Corn, Chicken By-Product Meal, Soybean Meal, Pork Fat, other _________ Non-kibble dry foods: ZIWIPEAK Cuisine: Venison and Fish Venison-Meat, Liver, Tripe, Heart and Kidney, Fish, Chicory Syrup, Green-lipped and Blue Mussel, Hoki Fish Oil, other

To answer your question directly, the melamine is in the chicken's feed supply. And so then into the chicken itself. And passed on in their eggs. And their meat.

You mean our very own AQIS who gamma irradiated otherwise perfectly good high quality pet food and rendered it toxic and lethal to cats before allowing it for sale the Australian market? Sure, they know what they're doing. I trust 'em. Those HACCP certificates on the site you link are from 2005. The melamine in the Chinese chicken's feed supply is this year. As recently as four weeks ago actually (Oct 28) when eggs in Hong Kong were found to be contaminated with melamine. The chickens absorb it and pass it on. If Chinese chicken eggs for human consumption four weeks ago have it, I'm assuming Chinese chicken meat for pet consumption will even more likely to be contaminated right now. All of it. Until it's all tested and cleared. It was well-known name brand pet foods like Hill's amongst others in the USA who supposedly use only the 'best' ingredients who were caught out using tainted gluten from China in their foods. If a pharmaceutal chemical company as huge as Colgate-Palmolive (makers of Hill's) doesn't have a system in place to pick up a chemical contamination before it goes into the production line and sold, then why would any other company? The first they knew about it was when dogs started dying.

Their website qualifies that claim - need to apply it every two weeks, not 100% guaranteed, etc.

Revolution's not working for me either. Makes me question its heartworm and worm coverage as well. I'm going to try the flea-only options now. Advantage first, then Frontline. If neither of those work, it's Program oral. Wouldn't standard all-wormers do the same thing as well? Maybe just for a day or two I suppose.

I bought a container of chicken jerky and have been giving them to my dog. Some brand I never heard of. Just looked at it now because of this thread. 'Wanpy' Oven Roasted Chicken Jerky. Made in China. Don't know if it's the one with the problems. Don't care. In the bin it goes. I've had enough. I'm checking every label from now on. Made in China = in the bin. Any and all food from China either stays on the shop shelf or goes in the bin without opening if someone else buys it. It never occurred to me that chicken jerky wasn't Australian. It never even entered my mind that chicken would be from China. Seriously, why the f*** is Australia importing chicken from China?? We don't have poultry farms here?? Political rant: They say it doesn't matter which politician people vote for, but all these issues can be traced to George Bush and his administration's 100% disdain for regulation and govt oversight in nearly every category in the name of fast and quick profit for big business (look at the finance industry over there right now). A lot of the world, including us, relies on the US Food and Drug Administration with their much bigger budget to do most of the monitoring of food health and safety. This reliance has all gone out the window in the last eight years of Bush's people undermining it in every way - the US FDA simply can no longer be relied on. Maybe it'll all be fixed under Obama, but that'll take time. Until they do, all food from China should remain uneaten.

Oh, and change "Barkly" to "Alfred" (who's 17 months old now) and I could have written this:

Thanks for your observation. I'll be sure to take Alfred in for his next one a couple of weeks shy of the due date. Like Luke, having a double-coated dog I've gone the implant route to try and maintain coat quality, so am planning to do it annually (with the 12 month implant) just like a vacc booster shot, so I also would be very interested in any known long term effects on the thyroid.