Steve

Bitches which live together usually all come in season together.

Umm, You don't have to sleep with them. There IS NO Separation of breeder practices by group. No group can ever be exempt from poor practice. No group can ever say sh*t doesn't happen in 'My' space. To insist Pedigree breeders have a 'different' space will see pedigree dogs ( and others) eventualy, go the same way as as the greyhound industry. No doubt. In accepting that all DOGS and BREEDERS have equal legitimacy to Man and his communities, the focus shifts from 'Groups' or environments, back to individuals and their own practices, where it belongs. Does this PERSON live up to the expectations of our community? Forget your 'own' space for that. Doesn't matter if a person lives up to K.C expectations if they are not also community expectations. With SHARED environment, conversation can shift to those values and practices, ( not groups ) that bring bring best results for Dogs and the communities they live in. Bringing shared responsibility of communities, A better educated and informed public. Puppy farms would fail on the expectations of a more responsible and informed public. Its the way to ensure puppy farms DON"T succeed hobby/enthusiast breeders. The way its going ATM, Puppy farms and commercial breeders have all the advantage available. Its a matter of Saving pedigree dogs, and domestic dogs in general. I find it very hard to respect a group that would rather 'die' and destroy a welcoming, valued space for dogs for every one, than change a belief that only a 'pedigree' can give a dog, a breeder or an owner validity. That superiority of pedigrees is a given, regardless of practice and environmental purpose. Thats what it amounts to. Any body claiming to be FOR dogs has a responsibility to shape and form those expectations. For dogs. Or they fail dogs at the most basic level. Its very unlikely puppy farms would ever have become an issue if the premier Breeder bodies had accepted in the 1st place that they are not THE environment for dog breeders, just one of many with a responsibility to the communities that support them to demonstrate value. A responsibility to a healthier environment than whats been left in their wake with a belief superiority is in a pedigree, not a dog or its purpose and values to its own space . You think your 'Group space' can single handedley meet community expectations, for all of us, go for it, But you will be judged by the worst, as a group. You fail my expectations. I have lost hope for my breed, along with most anyone who valued them for their purpose. Oh, right, your incomprehensible posts have actually been about you. Gee, sorry about not wanting to be likened to BYBs and puppyfarmers. Guess your expectations were always going to be dashed on the rocks of other people's ethics. I have no trouble understanding what moosesmum said? everyone can be likened to a byb and a puppyfarmer, as it is all the true puppy farms are licensed and literally factory built, hundreds of square metres of concrete and shedding aka any modern piggery all equally legal, those who have them at home with out the factory complex, all it takes is the accusation by someone who thinks they are better than you, few bother to question is it true, where animals are concerned its guilty until trial by media, online and gossip has run out of steam and ceased. I noticed all the headlines about the chihuahua breeder in vic suddenly went silent and how many weeks or months is it now since they and a neighbor were smothered in tar? the rage about the dead bodies was the neighbors property and a different breed but few noticed that minor hiccup in detail? as to charges laid the silence is deafening? charges sure were laid and frogmarched to court for that lady with the debarked tibetan spaniels as I recall she was facing some 60 years jail there were so many charges, furtunately for her although the chargeees said they had to seize the dogs and take her to court as their hands were tied, the legislation clearly stated she cannot show a dog in victoria if it was debarked in another state. no problem if its just a pet, but show it and your toast. lucky for her and her dogs the magistrate threw it out. thanks goodness that mans hands werent tied even though it was law even if a pretty incredibly stupid one. is it still there or been repealed? but no matter even if no charges are ever laid their reputation is mud and the stuff rarely washes off successfully, the majority so targeted dissappear due to the distress and the finger pointer is satisfied, reminds me of the salem witch trials actually The magistrate didn't throw it out and the law is still there. so what eventually happened? I was told she got them back and wasn't sent to jail? think was did my head in was anyone from another state with their debarked dog can go to Victoria and show it and its not a chargeable offense, as its not illegal to show a debarked dog just illegal if its born in vic , debarked in another state and then exhibited in Victoria by a Victorian, ? Guilty and a fine -details were kept quiet. It is crazy and still hard to see how its possible.

Umm, You don't have to sleep with them. There IS NO Separation of breeder practices by group. No group can ever be exempt from poor practice. No group can ever say sh*t doesn't happen in 'My' space. To insist Pedigree breeders have a 'different' space will see pedigree dogs ( and others) eventualy, go the same way as as the greyhound industry. No doubt. In accepting that all DOGS and BREEDERS have equal legitimacy to Man and his communities, the focus shifts from 'Groups' or environments, back to individuals and their own practices, where it belongs. Does this PERSON live up to the expectations of our community? Forget your 'own' space for that. Doesn't matter if a person lives up to K.C expectations if they are not also community expectations. With SHARED environment, conversation can shift to those values and practices, ( not groups ) that bring bring best results for Dogs and the communities they live in. Bringing shared responsibility of communities, A better educated and informed public. Puppy farms would fail on the expectations of a more responsible and informed public. Its the way to ensure puppy farms DON"T succeed hobby/enthusiast breeders. The way its going ATM, Puppy farms and commercial breeders have all the advantage available. Its a matter of Saving pedigree dogs, and domestic dogs in general. I find it very hard to respect a group that would rather 'die' and destroy a welcoming, valued space for dogs for every one, than change a belief that only a 'pedigree' can give a dog, a breeder or an owner validity. That superiority of pedigrees is a given, regardless of practice and environmental purpose. Thats what it amounts to. Any body claiming to be FOR dogs has a responsibility to shape and form those expectations. For dogs. Or they fail dogs at the most basic level. Its very unlikely puppy farms would ever have become an issue if the premier Breeder bodies had accepted in the 1st place that they are not THE environment for dog breeders, just one of many with a responsibility to the communities that support them to demonstrate value. A responsibility to a healthier environment than whats been left in their wake with a belief superiority is in a pedigree, not a dog or its purpose and values to its own space . You think your 'Group space' can single handedley meet community expectations, for all of us, go for it, But you will be judged by the worst, as a group. You fail my expectations. I have lost hope for my breed, along with most anyone who valued them for their purpose. Oh, right, your incomprehensible posts have actually been about you. Gee, sorry about not wanting to be likened to BYBs and puppyfarmers. Guess your expectations were always going to be dashed on the rocks of other people's ethics. I have no trouble understanding what moosesmum said? everyone can be likened to a byb and a puppyfarmer, as it is all the true puppy farms are licensed and literally factory built, hundreds of square metres of concrete and shedding aka any modern piggery all equally legal, those who have them at home with out the factory complex, all it takes is the accusation by someone who thinks they are better than you, few bother to question is it true, where animals are concerned its guilty until trial by media, online and gossip has run out of steam and ceased. I noticed all the headlines about the chihuahua breeder in vic suddenly went silent and how many weeks or months is it now since they and a neighbor were smothered in tar? the rage about the dead bodies was the neighbors property and a different breed but few noticed that minor hiccup in detail? as to charges laid the silence is deafening? charges sure were laid and frogmarched to court for that lady with the debarked tibetan spaniels as I recall she was facing some 60 years jail there were so many charges, furtunately for her although the chargeees said they had to seize the dogs and take her to court as their hands were tied, the legislation clearly stated she cannot show a dog in victoria if it was debarked in another state. no problem if its just a pet, but show it and your toast. lucky for her and her dogs the magistrate threw it out. thanks goodness that mans hands werent tied even though it was law even if a pretty incredibly stupid one. is it still there or been repealed? but no matter even if no charges are ever laid their reputation is mud and the stuff rarely washes off successfully, the majority so targeted dissappear due to the distress and the finger pointer is satisfied, reminds me of the salem witch trials actually The magistrate didn't throw it out and the law is still there.

they have presented some pretty good alternatives [yesterday] which are worth at least looking at in my opinion. Our political system is based on a premise that before any person who has clearly become rather fanatical and unreasonable gets to change laws and get his own way that this needs to be tested by a parliamentary process - not manipulated as it has been to get it done without enough discussion or debate. If this goes through before the court case is heard and they win in court them we will have laws based on facts that are proven not to be facts in a court of law. Maddy for you to say that as long as our practices are reasonable to the average person we wont have any problem simply isn't true .In this day and age everyone remotely involved in an activity where EVERYTHING they do passes as reasonable will still be judged by the actions of the sensationalised few.

Live feed Parliament debate now - being fast tracked Link

State not liable for compensation and betting as well as racing to be outlawed. Cant see where they cant still breed them and sell them unless Ive missed it Live webcast in parliament now Link

Breaking News - Bill has been introduced to parliament and being fast tracked.

I have Dorpers and they are absolute bastards with fencing but because I have Maremma in the paddocks with them I am not able to use electric fencing so we had to spend tens of thousands of dollars to re- fence everything to keep them in. Thats all done now but would have been good to have an alternative that didnt take so much money and work.

Well more important is learning what parasites you are likely to have to deal with in your area.This way you are not filling your dog with poisons which it doesn't need. In SA depending on where you live the chances of your dog being exposed to heartworm may be negligible. It needs a certain type of mozzie,female,which has just bitten another dog within a short distance with heartworm . It needs a certain constant temperature for a certain period of time etc. Even if your dog sleeps inside in air conditioning that will protect it. Fleas and ticks are seasonal too and you should only need a mild wormer every 6 months past the puppy stage. If you go here -click on Heartworm Facts and Heartworm that's a start.

My link Government issues licences to kill wombats, wallabies, kookaburras, swans, emus and parrots - PERMITS to kill thousands of native animals, including black swans, kookaburras and more than 1500 wombats were issued by Victoria's Department of Sustainability and the Environment last year in a move that has outraged animal rights activists. Authorities also gave the nod for more than 32,000 kangaroos and wallabies to be killed. In two cases, permits to kill up to 300 parrots were issued to protect golf courses. Authorities also granted permits for wildlife officers to kill up to 10 Australian fur seals. Other Australian animals marked for death included eastern rosellas, rainbow lorikeets and sulphur-crested cockatoos. The kill list was obtained under the Freedom of Information laws by Victorian Greens leader Greg Barber who has been campaigning to have all animal killing permits made public. In June, Mr Barber attempted to have all permits to cull wildlife tabled in State Parliament, a move that was frustrated after Environment Minister Ryan Smith said it would involve an unreasonable diversion of his department's resources. Other documents obtained under FOI show authorities gave permission to shoot 100 brushtail possums in the Geelong Botanic Gardens, while Avalon Airport was allowed to kill 10 magpies, 20 galahs, 40 ravens and two Cape Barren geese that were interfering with aircraft. The documents also reveal wildlife officers at Parks Victoria's Serendip Sanctuary applied to kill an emu that had become aggressive and was threatening human safety. They were also given the right to destroy 80 emu chick nests to control population numbers. Permits to kill more than 500 emus were issued statewide last year. Felicity Andersen, a spokeswoman for Animal Liberation Victoria, which opposes all animal killing, said she was shocked at the scale of the slaughter. "It's obscene," Ms Anderson said. "There is no justification for this killing whatsoever." Mr Barber said there needed to be more transparency over the issuing of permits to kill native animals. "This all happens under the cloak of secrecy," he said. "'If the full extent of the slaughter was known there would be outrage." DSE spokesman Nick Talbot said all native wildlife was protected in Victoria but where it was significantly affecting agriculture or primary production or posing a threat to public safety and health, people could apply for a permit to control it and in some instances, this permit allowed for its destruction. He said the permits to kill fur seals were issued to wildlife officers in case they needed to euthanise an animal for welfare or public safety reasons. "Destruction of wildlife under an authority to control wildlife permits only occurs after all other options have been considered and each application is assessed by a DSE wildlife officer," he said. "Should this be necessary, ATCW conditions specify the maximum number and permitted method. "This ensures it is carried out in an ethical and humane manner and that the sustainability of the species is not compromised." The DSE killing practices were condemned by John Kelly, head of the Kangaroo Industry Association of Victoria, which has long campaigned for a kangaroo meat industry in Victoria. "In a protein-starved world, it's a criminal waste of meat," he said. "It's highly likely the same number are being killed without permits." Emily Broadbent, a spokeswoman for Environment Minister Ryan Smith said that following disagreements last year between landholders and other residents over applications to cull kangaroos, he had created a committee of experts to advise the secretary of DSE on the most appropriate management options for wildlife. HIT LIST Swamp Wallaby PERMITS ISSUED: 128 No. TO BE KILLED: 2239 Rainbow Lorikeet PERMITS ISSUED: 20 No. TO BE KILLED: 910 Kookaburra PERMITS ISSUED: No. TO BE KILLED: 30 Emu : No. TO BE KILLED: 538 Black Swan No. TO BE KILLED: 10 Common Wombat No. TO BE KILLED: 1612

Where did this quote come from Asal?

Well in my opinion hip scoring in most breeds is nothing more than a money making operation and hasn't shown to be of any benefit to our dogs even though it s been operating for 20 plus years. If a breeder does score its just a nice marketing tool. A dog with zero scores can throw a whole little of pups with crap hip and a dog with rotten scores can have babies that never have a problem. Its impacted by conformation, exercise, injury , diet , stress, metabolic issues,even right down to the diet and care of the grandmother etc . Not all scores are recorded and the list goes on. Its a waste of money and time and energy and it places focus on one issue. So The nature of HD is that it is progressive and impacted by things way more than genetics and you have no clue as to why the dogs in the group were Xrayed so in one group people may only X ray their dogs when there is a problem so the incidence is high in another the breeders may be X Raying prior to breeding because their breed club has dictated they should throw their money down the drain. In this case of this breed you may have a higher incidence of over weight or a high incidence of dogs which originate from one geographical area etc and this is just a fraction of why I think hip scoring is the rort of the century. Why on earth we should be bogged into and pushing so hard for the utilisation of a system which has shown it doesn't work and even if it did that we are looking at a minute improvement even if everyone only bred those with really low score in 40 plus years! The MDBA is recommending that puppies are manipulated and checked at 6 and 12 weeks by a physical examination and at between 3 and 6 months of age are X rayed to see if there is any congenital issue regarding the shape of the hip socket before environmental factors get into the mix. This is also supplemented by record keeping and pedigree profiling and other fitness testing of breeding dogs. But apart from all of that, in this breed HD is way down the list of things they should be working on in order to be able to say that they are showing progress with less dogs in their breed suffering from poor quality of life and when some other issues are beginning to show signs of improvement then thing such as HD will become less of a problem as a natural progression. I am told that BB are healthier now than they were 20 years ago by the breeders. O.K. well someone needs to define what it is we are talking about when we say "health" and ' healthier" - perhaps some of us have different interpretation of "health" because for the ordinary every day person this is very difficult to see and they need to start talking about what these dogs suffered with 20 years ago that they no longer suffer with or they suffer less with. The number one most urgent health issues breeders of this breed need to tackle is definitely not about prioritising HD.

I think its done agreat job and Im happy for them to fundraise to keep it going but there is no way I would want information kept and used to solicit funds from people who are contacting me I get that some here are right behind their's and Shel's pound program but that coupled with this will impact on small rescue .No big deal as long as they know and understand that and are happy to shut down and have an "exit plan" but I think there is a place for small rescue [ run well] and Im not convinced that just getting them out and moving them into new homes without assessment is agood thing I keep waiting for someone to come in and defend what has been said about small rescue and its hard for me to see why everyone was so upset with P Rounds when this is all they do and happy to back what has been said and is being done without a whimper.

Beautiful and sounds to me that you are doing a great job. I've been using a rattle to distract beagles and especially Maremma for decades - works for me.

I was only speaking of the longevity argument being squashed not the rest - the conformation is a whole different story. Not much fun if living longer doesn't equate to quality of life.

as am I. This is deliberate cruelty but "they" are allowed to do it. Yet "they" complain about shooting a dog. Euthanasia by a vet is not always a easy death either. Makes me sick to my stomach not just because of the way they are killing the dogs but the way they are allowing the goats to be treated. Its disgusting so we poison wild dogs/dingos when they predate on our sheep and goats.. we bemoan the killing and maiming and the suffering of our precious animals but such killing and maiming is acceptable when the animals are a nuisance to us, and horrific deaths for the wild dogs and dingos are also seen as perfectly ok... rabbits as well: Stage 1 – Initial reduction Where rabbit density is medium to high, the objective is to reduce the population to a manageable level - usually by a poisoning program, but only during the non-breeding season. If control must be carried out during the breeding season, use warren ripping or fumigation. Breeding may occur during most times of the year, but usually follows milder seasons when conditions are conducive to pasture growth. Initial reduction may also be achieved by the arrival (natural or introduced) of rabbit haemorrhagic disease virus (RHDV) or myxomatosis. this is what happens when you send city people in to find a solution to country issues.

as am I. This is deliberate cruelty but "they" are allowed to do it. Yet "they" complain about shooting a dog. Euthanasia by a vet is not always a easy death either. Makes me sick to my stomach not just because of the way they are killing the dogs but the way they are allowing the goats to be treated. Its disgusting

I don't have an objection to regulation but there's an awful lot of regulation already. Other posters have pointed out that GRNSW is a NSW Government body, which automatically deletes it from the self-regulation category anyway. Where was GRNSW in this? Pedigree dog breeders belong to their state ANKC body. Has a Code of Ethics but it is not a regulatory body. Dog breeders have to comply with whatever state laws there are about dog breeding so where is self-regulation in this? State bodies are, at best, just dog clubs. They have no policing powers whatsoever. I don't think there is a lot of regulation, there are plenty of laws which are rarely enforced (until the shit hits the fan), there are government bodies increasingly looking to outsource these responsibilities, and there are a lot of little groups coming under the umbrella of "industry". While the dog clubs are their own entities they still come under this umbrella as far as public and government perception is concerned. Certainly there are links, some clubs are linked to some sports and showing more so than others, everyone uses the same services such as vets and products, that's what makes it an industry. Ideally we want to have an industry representative group which covers all canine pursuits, everyone contributes and everyone helps to keep the industry clean. Just as farmers contribute to their industry groups even though the way the different sectors operate may be very different and subject to very different pressures, an example of this may be something like meat and livestock Australia. Feels like there is a lot of regulation to me - little of which has to do with the science of the species but more and more as if dogs are humans. We have to make constant choice on best practice over regulation and the younger people coming through are educated by taking for granted that because its a law or a regulation it must be what is best for the dogs. I dont agree with self regulation when some groups are offered exemptions from behaving like the rest of the "industry" Greyhound racing was and is in most states still a prime example of this and even though it was sanctioned by state governments it was policed and regulated by their own board. They had their own codes which counteracted state codes all breeders have to comply with and complaints are kept and dealt with in house. Vicdogs is similar in Victoria as their breeders who own less than 10 fertile dogs have exemptions to having to comply with breeding codes . this is why the MDBA will not apply for these exemptions for our members until some things are changed within the system. The RSPCA and AWL have no third party accountability and if you have complaint about any of them it is also handled in house. Bit the same as the church with complaints of sex crimes.

Amazing isnt it - now they get to send in mad dogs to rip goats apart . Nuts

Gee what was the point of this thread anyway? I thought it was interesting and that others might too.I was looking at their kennel set up and how they managed them - taking them for walks etc and how the longevity is the same now as it was 60 years ago which squashes PDE on that point.

Sounds great except that ethical is not an objective judgement. Who gets to say what that is?

Everyone does have the right to a drivers L but I don't have my right removed because someone else shows they are not capable of the responsibility. You assume that the other 80% had enough information and evidence to do something about it or that if THEY did try to do something about it that the governing body would respond. I can front up right now to the ANKC and tell them someone is breeding dogs with conformation so bad that their dogs are suffering and they will laugh at me.i can say this here on this forum and I will be told that its O.K. because the breed wasn't meant to run around the block. You can place this type of evaluation onto any group which has little or no or little outside accountability. Actually it does happen with licenses, Ls and Ps are placed on restrictions, they can't have I think it's 8 cylinder vehicles in some states, the same rules don't apply, so yes their rights are restricted by the actions of a few which amounted to a critical mass, not every P plater can't handle the power of a V8 but enough of them couldn't that it was decided they all shouldn't drive one until they have sufficient experience. As a group they behave and as a group they are judged, as they say, no one ever said that life was fair. And it's as a group we have the power, the 80% can and do have the power to change things. I see it all the time in dressage, high level riders yanking and kicking and basically showing off the worst of the sport for the world to see, and the rest of us tut tut and say "what can we do?", they are at the top we are at the bottom, but without us paying our fees and supporting our little comps and buying the products with their names on them they are nothing, nobodies. We do have power. No one is suggesting that groups do not or should not have restrictions and obviously there should be restrictions on how they kill them and who does it but as they have not broken the law they should still have their basic property rights in tact to make a decision on what is the fate of their dogs.

In the case of the greys those who have been found to be being cruel have been charged. Those using live lures and those who have been found to killing them cruelly. But there is nothing illegal in breeding more dogs than you need for a given purpose or who fail to make the grade nor is there anything illegal in having your dogs PTS and burying them in the one spot. If it is such a terrible thing to breed animals which may need to be culled because they don't fit the criteria for being kept then make it a law. A sheep farmer kills sheep that don't make the grade and eat them for lunch - so is eating an animal better and less cruel than killing it and burying it? It is clearly a community perception but its still not against the law. They are about to put mad dogs on a small island with the express intent of ripping goats to pieces - playing tug of war with their babies and that's not cruel? But it doesn't matter because that's not against the law either. So if its not against the law how can we call for the rights of dog owners to be removed because part of their group used live lures ? If the industry is banned then at least give them the choice to be responsible for their own animals if they want to be.

Yes because often its the institution that encourages it and covers it either because they dont see it as a bad thing or because they protect their brand.

Everyone does have the right to a drivers L but I don't have my right removed because someone else shows they are not capable of the responsibility. You assume that the other 80% had enough information and evidence to do something about it or that if THEY did try to do something about it that the governing body would respond. I can front up right now to the ANKC and tell them someone is breeding dogs with conformation so bad that their dogs are suffering and they will laugh at me.i can say this here on this forum and I will be told that its O.K. because the breed wasn't meant to run around the block. You can place this type of evaluation onto any group which has little or no or little outside accountability.