Steve

Lets wait and see what everyone chooses before we let the cat out of the bag.

Well , considering that when they did tests on human suppliments which have Glucosamine and Chondoritin in them they found that all but one or two didnt have anywhere near the right amounts to be able to make a dent of difference and most were inactive Id say the vet which said there's not enough in the dog foods was closer to the money .Chicken cartlidge has huge amounts in it anyway.

Some recent studies suggest that most people only take special notice at point of sale of the first 4 ingredients . Just lets look at 2 products . One is about one quarter of the price of the other . Both produce the same amount of stools so the digestibility is equal.Both have added vitamins and minerals which make them complete dog foods and conform to AAFCO profiles. Neither have any chemical preservatives, added colourants, animal by-products or corn. 1.Would you feel that paying 4 times as much for one over the other is justified and if so which one. ? 2.Would you choose to try the most expensive or the cheapest first ? 3. Do you choose your dog food based on something else? Product A Ingredient 1 Lamb meal , Ingredient 2 ground rice, Ingredient 3 rice flour, Ingredient 4 rice bran Analysis Total protein 21 percent Toatal Fat 12 percent Total fibre 5 percent carbo hydrates approx 50 percent Product B Ingredient 1 Cereals and Bran , Ingredient 2 real kangaroo meat, real chicken meat ,real beef and or lamb meat Ingredient 3 real chicken meat Ingredient 4 vegetable protein. Analysis Total protein - 26 percent fat 13 percent Fibre 3 percent. carbo hydrates approx 50 percent

Hesapandabear."I dont think that Nutro is any more expensive than other "super" premium foods. You pay for what you get and in this case it is quality ingredients " Not all "super " premium and premium food it seems are worth what you pay for. We [MDBA] are currently collecting digestibility figures and doing digestibility testing which shows clearly that price isnt a very good indicator of what going in stays in and is used by the body .Ingredients arent always a good indicator either. Wonder why digestibility figures dont show on any of the dog food labels? Its possible to make a food more digestible by using rice as a primary grain source ,it seems ,even though the parts of the rice plant used is normally used in cat litter. Some super premium foods split ingredients to make it look like there is more of one food than another when in fact there is as much grain to ratio of meat in cheaper brands . Just because meat is written up as the first ingredient thats definitely no indication that you get more meat in one than you do in any other. There's is no measurement of how much of each ingredient is in each batch so some may only have a pinch and still be listed .There is no guarantee that what ingredients go in are any better than cardboard when they come out of the bag which is demonstrated by the vast difference between ingredients listed as what goes in and the guaranteed analysis shown on the bags . For example vitamin B's may go in but there is no hint that this is still in it when it is fed to a dog.That may have something to do with vitamin B's being destroyed by heat and its pretty hard to imagine that any commercial dog food is produced without heat. Regardless of Ingredients, this doesnt necessarily mean quality or that every bit of them isnt destroyed in the processing or storage . So you may get what you pay for with Nutro but price and ingredients lists dont necessarily tell someone they are getting any better or that they will be getting what they pay for. Some premium and super premium foods are way overpriced for what you get.

Hell what a job! very impressive

Hang on though Some of those foods listed as super premium have grains as 3 of the top 4 ingredients . One has lamb as the first but three different types of rice listed so its not obvious that rice is the main ingredient but it is the main ingredient . The guaranteed analysis in one is so close to another which is dirt cheap its not funny though the ingredient list is detailed there's no measure ments for what amounts of each are in them. Though vitamin B for example is listed as an ingredient there is no way of telling how much they put in [ especially in comparison to other vitamins and minerals] and they only guarantee a handful of things in the final product. The term super premium is news to me and Im eager to find out why its being used and what qualifies a food to be considered this over any other compariably priced product.

If you're feeding commercial food I would still continue to feed 3 feeds per day until they are at least 6 months but if you are feeding raw you only need 2 per day. Julie

O.K. So lets really check it out for say 2 to 4 weeks. Feed raw chicken pet mince .Add an omega 3 and 6 fatty acid pill, the juice of an orange and some [ but not lots ] of table scraps.No commercial dog food at all and no carbo hydrates . If its diet related this will show you . How does the dogs body know the amount of calcium to phosphorous is off in the food they get.? O.K. If you have water its made up of hydrogen and oxegen and its great for putting out fires but if you separate them and have hydrogen and nitrogen separately each has the potential of igniting huge fires. When you have the right mix of nutrients they all work together ,With some if you put too much in over time the body can store it but others need to use each other to get from one end to the other and circulate through the blood steam. If you have consistently more calcium than you need for the phosphorous to do its job there's too much clacium left in the joints and bones if you dont have enough the phosphorous needs to go looking for calcium to be able to assimilate and it will leech it from the bones until over time you begin to see the results. Some things such as carbo hydrates can also impact on how these types of nutrients are processed so if you add something that blocks the ability for one to absorb you will need more of it to do the job. Every one knows you cant put every thing you need in exactly the right combination when you feed a person. We know we have to try to balance the diet over the period of about a week and that we need to eat lots of variety to be able to do that. Fact is its the same for our dogs .The danger lies in feeding the same foods too often .

These nutrients are in organges so you can clearly see how much better it will be to add a little of these than a one off suppliment [ I hope] You can make your self and your family healthier at the same time as well. We juice the orange , then we drink the juice and add the pulp into the dog's dinner. Calcium Fluorine Magnesium Silicon Vitamin E Biotin Chlorine Iron Phosphorous Zinc Vitamin K Folic acid Copper Manganese Potassium Vitamins B 1,2 and 6 Bioflavoids inostol

The vitamin C helps many minerals to assimilate properly including collegen which is really important for joints. BUT Now you have the results you have to consider why the dog needed the vitamin C in the first place. Ideally the dog will make enough vitamin C in a form that wont hurt him if he has the other nutrients going in to be able to do it. So its a good idea to look at how you may be able to change the diet without the need for suppliments to prevent any long term problems arising in other areas. Remember you saw one side effect of the deficiency but much more is going on you dont see until its too late. Even better you can have the best of both worlds and give him vitamin C in the form of a fresh orange every few days which also gives him a miriad of the things needed to digest and assimilate them all.

Yep Im going with the gang as well better to leave the collar off while you not with them.

Well done all round . Not much to equal a new corgi baby .

Yep I agree. Cordy is on the ball.

I think you will find that he is seeing you as part of his pack and so therefore he is behaving with you over his food the way he would if you were another dog taking his food . one of the things I advise people who take my pups home is to feed small portions and if they eat it all add some more but anything they havent eaten in say 15 mins is removed. This helps them to understand that if they dont eat it quick its gone and prevents much of the issues you're seeing now. At 18 months he only needs one feed per day and if he is on the Billinghurst diet he can easily go without food now for a day at a time . There are also various things you can do to take charge at feed time which I dont have time to talk about just now but feeding hime small amounts and not allowing him to store it away for later and also feeding him in one place is a good start.

There is a higher incidence of bloat in dogs fed commercial dog food than in those fed raw and one of the reasons may be that raw food isnt fed in bowls .Feeding a dog from an elevated bowl increase the chances by about 40 % according to Cornell uni . Some studies have shown you can reduce the incidence by feeding off a flat bowl rather than a scooped on as well. Not enough evidence to blame potatoes over something like grains or carbo hydrates so as long as you feed lots of different foods with variety there's little chance of a problem. Too much of anything can cause problems .Its all about small amounts of lots of different foods rather than large amounts of just a few.

There's a lot of sub topics popping up here . All of us know there are good breeders and bad breeders and we also know that not all rescue people desex their dogs before they go to new homes and who wont take them back or give a hoot about what comes next .Just as some people breed for nothing but money other rescue for the same reason. And just as some breeders are ignorant of the consequences of what they do and dont do its the same with some who work in rescue . I met a woman this week who is the local rescue lady who never desexes or cares where the dog goes as long as she feels she has saved it from its old owners who didnt want it any more. I met her because she came here to my house to ask me if I wanted what looked like a malt cross female which had obviously already had at least one litter ."Just thought I might be able to use her for breeding" Everyone, breeders, dog owners and rescue people should know there are potential risks involved with early desexing and make the call based on knowledge and assessment of the risks in relation to the positives .In order to do this our own experience , ethics and philosophies will come into play but part of that should be knowing all of the potentials . I balance my decision on knowing Ive done a lot to cut down the chances of someone not breeding with a dog they shouldnt ,of 30 years experience in sending home entire dogs and how many have done the wrong thing and what I know could be health issues either way both for and against . Everyone will make their own decisions accordingly but part of that cant be pretending their isnt risks . I dont desex my pups before they go home and a large part of that is that there isnt one vet in my area who believes they should .

Too hard to answer with such a small amount of info . Could be any number of things ,Most easy to address by no solid food for 24 hours and probiotics and some staminade or similar added to the water but it may also be serious especially if she hasnt been vaccinated .Could also be worms. Ring the vet.

yep Maremma

fencing can be a pain on a property and if they are already wandering a conventional farm fence isnt good enough. Just fence a smallish area or erect or buy a pen which they can be in when you arent there to supervise. There is no other solution Im afraid .Any breed of dog will do this ,though some more than others .Its your responsibility to make sure you have them enclosed so they cant leave the property . Julie

http://forums.dogzonline.com.au/index.php?showtopic=71261 This will help

Cooked meats are O.K. in small portions such as table scraps but there's no way you can justify cooking human grade chicken to feed your dog. Raw meat gives loads of great enzymes for the dog to digest its food and cooking kills these off. Also giving meat without the bone causes all kinds of skeletal problems as well as many others which take a while to show up. Raw chicken wings are great . There is a chemical in raw egg white which stops one nutrients from absorbing but there is so much of the nutrient in egg yolk that its all balanced and everything is great .Raw egg is the most digestible form of protien and all of the nutrient tables use these as a base measurement to compare protein assimilation and absorption qualities. Feed the shells as well and you have everything needed in just the right balance.

All baby mammals are born with the ability to be able to assimilate lactose because of their ability to manufacture an enzyme called lactase. All species milk has lactose . However, in many animals when the need to digest lactose is no longer present their systems kind of forget how to make the enzyme required to process the lactose at all or in the right ratio. As a result many become lactose intolerant .If you continue to feed milk such as Ellz is then the dog should still make enough enzyme to digest it all properly without a problem all of its life .But if you dont feed a diet which has milk in it for a period of time and then introduce milk chances are that the dog no longer makes lactase and it has an adverse reaction. Much also depends on the amounts you want to add to the diet and naturally a little is easier dealt with than larger amounts. Some dogs and some breeds cant tolerate milk for reasons other than just the lactose as its a protein all on its own. Some are badly affected by the mucin levels etc. Also homogenisation which is the process which chemically changes molecules in milk so instead of the cream floating on top that its evenly distributed has also been proven to affect the chemicals in the brain and there are lots of studies done with this and juvenile deliquency , ADD etc and theoretically may impact on aggression or similar in dogs. Point is some dogs can have it and other s cant so neither red mal or ellz is more correct than the other.

Yep that sounds great Just remember to make it about 80 percent raw meaty bones and that some things [ such as vitamin E ] are killed off if you freeze it . This shouldnt be an issue though based on what else you are feeding. Personally for the first month or so Id add a childs multi vitamin and a splash of apple cider vinegar daily and re assess it in 4 weeks time .

Do you see in the second shot how he looks like he's walking on his wrists rather than his toes? If the nutritional intake is correct a dog will look like its walking on tip toes . I know everyone would love a diet plan and its relatively simple to do but my main beef about this is that once you say feed this or that specifically you are again in the position where you could easily be over or under supplimenting /feeding any number of things. When you feed your self or your kids you know you cant possibly feed everything in the right ratio your body needs to stay healthy by feeding only one meal plan at every meal. You know that you need to balance the diet over a period of about a week and that the best way to do that is to feed lots of unprocessed foods in as much variety as possible.Raw chicken wings have all of the minerals you need including glucosamine.In fact you get more in this than you do in most joint supps .You can feed raw eggs and put the shells in the microwave for a minute or two .When the shells are brittle you can roll over them after you place them between paper towel or paperbags etc and crush them up into tiny pieces and either mix it in with the rest of the egg or put it with some other food. This is a great source of several minerals .You can do no harm by adding a childrens multi vitamin and mineral but dont supp only one or two . Couple of things . First if you give chicken wings make sure the dog is eating all of the wing and not just the meat off them or you may have to get them minced .Next people often choose a food which seems to suit their dog and so they stick with it . Every commercial food says they are complete and yet they are all different so if you always feed only one brand there is a hugher risk that something is either too high or too low which will impact over time .So if you have to feed commercial its a good idea to change brands and not just stick to one for the whole of the dogs life. Some vets and breeders advise adding calcium to try to correct this and unless you look at way more than just the calcium and whats going on to interact this isnt the long term answer. If this is the result of a dietary in balance its only the first symptom and as the dog ages other problems begin to show so its good to work it out now. If you are still having problems with this give a yell .

yep.