Steve

O.K. Nails need iron, zinc, calcium ,protein and anti - oxidents . [Vitamins A, D and E] The raw meaty bones diet should be covering this as far as your minerals are concerned so all you need is to add a childrens multi vitamin to make sure you're covering the rest. Based on what you're feeding all should be covered already but the vitamins are suseptible to damage through heat, storage etc. Vitamin E for example can be destroyed by freezing and too much vitamin C can show similar symptoms in dogs as well. It may also just be as simple as using a blunt blade to clip the nails as this is the greatest cause of split nails. Because of this a grinder is a preferrable way to keep the nails down . One of the very best things for nails and joints is good old gelatine and it also comes in handy to put in with barf patties etc as it makes the dog feel more full and helps in keeping calories down . I wouldnt go with the Eukanuba in a fit but you already knew I would say this If it is in fact dietary then just add a multi vitamin and mineral and it will do a better job than any commercial diet anyway .

I have a beagle stud dog [ Randy] who wont ever poo on the ground . He always poos in a bowl . At first I tried all manner of things to stop him and his water bowls kept getting taller and taller but he would balance on the rim on tip toes to do it and sometimes would go to exremmes to get it in the bowl. :rolleyes: So I gave up and instead gave him a bowl to drink out of and a bowl to poo in . Every day I pick up his potty and empty it and he never drops it on the ground and now he doesnt poo in the water bowl.

Hard call but think it through really well I had a 6 month old which had to have her tail amputated and I can honestly say Ive never seen a dog suffer so much .If its just going to keep getting damaged and causing pain then take it off if not leave it on. make sure you're doing it to save pain in the long run and not for any other reason.

Try these http://www.doglogic.com/vaccineinfo.htm#news http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=522361&tools=bot Smith CA. Current concepts: Are we vaccinating too much? J Am Vet Med Assoc 1995;207:421-425. Larson RL, Bradley JS. Immunologic principles and immunization strategy. Comp Cont Ed Pract Vet 1996;18:963-970. Duval D, et al. Vaccine-associated immune mediated hemolytic anemia in the dog. J Vet Int Med 1996;10:290-295. Tizard I. Risks associated with the use of live vaccines. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1990;196:1851-1858. Greene CE. Vaccine induced complications verses overvaccination. Proceedings of the 65th annual AAHA meeting, Chicago, 1998, pp 368-369. Olson P. et al. Duration of immunity elecited by canine distemper virus vaccinations in dogs. Vet Rec 1997;141:654-655. http://www.homestead.com/vonhapsburg/haywardstudyonvaccines.html http://www.ivis.org/advances/Infect_Dis_Carmichael/schultz/chapter_frm.asp http://www.golden-retriever.com/dodds.html http://www.austinholistic.com/articles/WFalconer001.html http://www.austinholistic.com/articles/WFalconer002.html http://www.catcaresociety.org/shots.htm http://www.critterfixer.com/pages/new_protocols.asp http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/HAMLVACC.HTM http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/MCCLUGG.HTM http://www.critterfixer.com/pages/canine.asp http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/Resources.html http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2002&PID=2614 http://members.aol.com/abywood/www/vac_myth.htm http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/bouvier/health/vaccination-concerns-uk.htm http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/petvacc.htm

Lots of studies re immunity of vaccinations .Cornell uni did one that went for 15 years .I've got the links for the studies here someplace and Ill dig em out for you later when Ive a bit more time. I cant help with the kennel cough as Ive never been that interested .Ive never used it.

Puggles, I was simply attempting to explain why I used the terminology I did as per your request. I dont want an argument . I think there is much more to this than we know and I wont use it for my dogs and I think before the vet offers me the stuff for my dog they should not only be aware of the issues but also inform me of them. Perhaps I am mistaken and the vets wouldnt loose any money out of not giving the vaccinations and they actually give it all for no profit .Perhaps now that the new vaccination protocols are on the agenda it gives em a reason to get people back once a year again - who knows . But its my guess they are making a fair cut out of each one they give as well as the need for an appointment in the first place and therefore if they stand up and refuse to give it they would loose money. By the way if you think there are no consequences for vets who stand up against the big companies and that vets who went public about what they thought about commercial dog food werent given a hard time try reading Raw Meaty Bones Written by Tom Lonsdale . My advice to everyone is - Do the research , evaluate the risks of either not having it or having it and make an educated decision based on facts and not just stuff put out by the drug companies [ and at the risk of slagging off gingers Mum's vet] dont just take the vets word for whether you should or should not have the thing because once its in you can't get it out. Knowing after the event that the dog was suseptible skipy isnt much comfort to the owners who have to watch the results.

Puggles, Firstly even the first link I posted above is written by a vet and Ive had private conversations with 2 vets recently who have chatted with me about our desire to do some testing ,who were very aware of the issues . One discussed at length with me immune system responses which may be a result of these drugs rather than a sensitivity and felt that many problems which show up could be impacted by them. It was clear to me that both were aware of the fact that there were risks involved but were not prepared to say so in a more public way or stop using them on their patients. One has agreed to help in setting up our tests and is convinced we will see evidence of some of the issues but they still give the vaccination until further notice. If a vet came out publicly and went against the drug companies its likely they would not only drop income but that they would land in a fair bit of grief and because of the fact that just in the human study it takes months to show an affect which could easily be attributed to other issues ,they would have their necks pretty well stuck out. So knowing there may be problems and being prepared to say this or do anything about it are two different things. I would also say there were many vets who think there may be a better way of feeding a dog rather than what they sell over the counter but very few have been prepared to say so publicly and the ones who have certainly havent had an easy time of it from the AVA or the food companies. There's no doubt in my mind that many vets would not take any notice of warnings that didnt come through the drug companies or the AVA ,that they would tag it internet hype and say they are not aware of any reason to withdraw the product but its pretty hard for a vet to tell you they think there may be problems as they are sticking the needle in. On this I agree with Morgan . If in fact these vets dont know there are warnings on this medication and that some dogs have had an instant response and died or that there are immune system issues they must be living in a bubble and really should do a bit of research . .

I would say there is a fair number of vets who are prepared to say they believe its not all its been cracked up to be.

Here's some good links on mozzies and heartworm risk the last one is about humans who were given ivermectin Scares the pants off you. http://www.preciouspets.org/newsletters/articles/heartworm-article.htm http://student.vwc.edu/~sldodgers/dogworm.htm http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/herx.html http://www.safe2use.com/scabiesboard/ivermectin/Ivermectin-Deaths-Scabies.htm

yep that's exactly how it happened. Dunno if our family was in dumb and dumber but I did sometimes wonder if they were watching and using my brother in law for episodes of 'Some Mothers do have em' years ago. No one else got the joke when he divorced my sister and married a girl called Betty but it made me giggle for weeks. Sorry I know we shouldnt do this and its way off topic - Ill try harder.

Point is but especially for breeding dogs even the monthly heart worm meds are a potential problem . We all need to assess whether or not our own dogs are truly at risk of getting heartworm and we should be informed of the possible adverse side affects of any of the meds .We should also be able to access information on what our choices are as a normal right . When symptoms show pretty soon after the vaccination its more obvious that we should be looking at the drugs but what of the things which may take a lot longer to show up. Thyroid problems , immune related issues, allergies etc or even lowered sperm counts wont be something thats going to be proven to be impacted on by the drugs unless different and longer studies are undertaken which are not sponsored by the drug companies . Once the MDBA gets their nutrition research program underway we will be testing the impact of heart worm meds on a dog's health , immune system and breeding issues . This should be started around June 2007. Then hopefully around December 2007 there will be one based on how vaccinations passed the first birthday may also affect the immune system. Its going to take us about 10 years to gather all of the data but with all 3 studies Im expecting that along the way we will be able to offer some unique resources to owners and breeders which will help them to make educated decisions. Because we wont have any sponsorship or donations from food or drug companies funding is a consideration but it all looks like being able to go ahead and the nutritional one is guaranteed to start in the next few months. The heartworm and vaccination studies will be much easier to put together [ I hope]

Im so sorry to hear this . I just really wish that dog owners were given all the info on stuff like this before they are sucked into just doing what ever their vet recommends . The vet is fed by the drug food companies and thats not necessarily the whole story. Short story is that I went to my vet about 10 years ago and they recommended I use a drug which costs me about a cent a month which is in some of the heart worm meds rather than buy it as it was marketed for around $20 a month. I'd never used heart worm meds until then so I though she was a hero and had provided me with a way to keep my dogs healthy and save me money. 6 months after all manner of things started happening in my breeding dogs that I had never seen before. One thing about having as many dogs as I do is that when something like this is going on its obvious and because of that you pick it up quickly rather than most dog owners who dont pick it up as easily. I also met another breeder who had put their dogs on this at around the same time and she was complaining about things that were going on in her yard as well. After months of research we realised the only thing different and that we both had in common was the heart worm drug. So we went on a mission to research the drug from a science point rather than a marketing one and by passed what the drug companies had to say. The answers I got made me as mad as hell at my vet because I couldnt work out why if I could find this info that they didnt have the same but then realized they really do have to rely on what the drug companies tell them and they dont go off and do their own research each time a new drug is presented. Anyway , after I got the answers , I could see that if I put a drug like this into my blood stream and let it sit there for a month , 6 months or a year that I would expect to get sick , that I would expect it may cause immune system problems and possibly shorten my life span or affect my baby if I got preganant. Then I looked at the testing process, the known side effects to the drug and adverse reactions. But I also went and looked at how my dogs could get heartworm and what would happen if they did. In the beginning when the meds were first bought out vets were given free test kits and it was later found that the lavea were actually stuck to the slides in the factory so that when the vet looked under the scope they thought they saw heartworm lavae which implied it was much more common in their area and they started pushing for everyone to give the stuff to their dogs. Even if I live in an area where there are lots of mozzies , my dogs have to get bitten by a particular species of mozzie within a short space of time ,and within a short distance since they bit another dog which had heartworm, the temperature had to stay the same [ from memory over 38 degrees] for about 10 days . Anyway it turned out the chances of my dogs getting bitten by a mozzie that carried heartworm were so remote it was stupid to even suggest I should need a drug for this. I also looked at how breeeding dogs were even more likely to be affected by adverse reactions which no one would put down to the heart worm meds as well and how a healthy dog could fight off heartworm as a normal immune response. There are some areas which definitely have a higher risk of a dog getting heartworm than others but there are other methods of preventing this than a yearly or monthly shot of something thats going to brew away in their immune system. Some dogs die pretty quickly from a sensitivity to it but who's to say that many of the things we see later on arent a direct result of these drugs as well. Before you agree to allowing your dog be treated with anything research the drug not the product and a good rule of thumb is - would you expect yourself or kids to get sick if you were exposed to or ingested this drug ?

But OT completely, I cant stop her getting her tongue stuck in the vacuum cleaner! I have to vacuum with her outside, screaming the place down to get to it. Id love to see that ;) . Even better I cleaned out the budgie cage once and the stupid bugger jumped right at the end and got sucked up . I mean really sucked up and was dead before I could save him . ;) I was about as popular as a one armed paper hanger for a while and wasnt allowed to clean out the budgie cage after that so that got me out of that job . Its lucky the dog is too big and at least wont get too stuck.

Im so sorry to hear this .Im sending all my best wishes to you and your family.Where was the tumour?

Wow I can see how much you are worried but hold onto it for a while longer Once you get a diagnosis you can speak with the vet about what and cant be done and have the facts to decide on your options. Could be something simple yet.

One of my kids licked the side of the freezer and got stuck to it. ;) No one heard her crying and begging for help for about 30 mins so she just stuck there. We had to throw water over her to pull her free. she couldnt talk for days. ;)

Bloody hell Its hard to just get an answer without all of the opinions and emotions which just confuse the issue. This question is science based . Does desexing alter the height or the coat of a dog. The answer is either yes or no or sometimes. On a scientific level based on our knowledge of what roll testosterone [ or lack there of ] and eostrogen [ or lack there of ] play in the body - Yes ,the growth plates may be affected and yes the coat may be affected . Experience and eye witness accounts tell us that this is the case in some breeds more than others. Answering the question truthfully based on what you know and what you have seen is neither pro nor anti .

O.K. so you wouldnt buy based on the first 4 ingredients , you would look for other things to give you a clue as to which was worth more money or better quality. Thats great . If you would like to talk about the difference between AAFCO testing and formulated thats a good topic but not relavant to choosing between the first 4 ingredients. Whether or not either or both meet the balance between "taste vs palability vs usable nutrition vs excellent ingredients vs digestibility" is something people are able to judge after they buy the product but its not possible to tell these things based on the first 4 ingredients . Neither A or B guarantees specific coat and skin guarantee but both use almost identical words in stating they promote healthy skin and radiant coat but this isnt relavant in choosing from the first 4 ingredients as none of the first 4 ingredients are noted for their coat or skin enhancing qualities. You buy your dog food based on what you know and your own criteria but the purpose of the exercise was to demonstrate that buying a dog food only based on the first 4 ingredients is probably not a good idea and considering the research says most people do I thought it was interesting and worth questioning. The question was - based on the first 4 ingredients would you feel that that paying 4 times as much for one over the other was justified and if so which one ? The answer is that based on this information alone no one can decide which one is worth 4 times the price because you need more information - Therefore if you are choosing your dog food the way the majority of the people who were surveyed do you have about a 50 percent chance of getting a product which is pretty ordinary and or paying way too much for it. I think considering you sell dog food and have put a hell of a lot into learning about the product and why its better its safe to say you are not the average consumer and so there fore look for different things and more info to be able to compare but based on the average education on commercial dog foods in the market place many people are making their choices differently and this was the point to my question.

Hesapanda Bear. There is no itemisation on the packet of what the cereals are which was part of the point .The first 4 ingredients were listed as they appear on the packs for the specific purpose of trying to see whether it was possible for people to be able to decipher what was a better food by only reading these first 4 when they go to buy their dog food . This was purely because I turned up some marketing research which showed that the majority of dog food buyers only read the first 4 ingredients when they were shopping. Clearly some people want more information and choose their dog food on the rest of the ingredient list or other criteria but that wasnt the question .Because of the research I wanted to know whether people here would be able to choose between a good quality food and any other by only looking at the first 4 ingredients and why I asked which food was better by only listing these first 4 . The ingredients are listed in some foods by a long list of each thing specifically thats in them where others group their ingredients . So in B they are listed as cereals and in A they are listed as what they are specifically, Because the measurements and the ratios of one ingredient to the other are never listed its not possible to know whether there is actually more of anything in one than the other and its likely that if food B were to split their description as food A did that they would have meat listed as their first ingredient or maybe even their first 4 ingredients. The average consumer isnt able to tell which food is better even if they study all of the ingredients and because of this they have little choice but to take the company's word for it or buy the most expensive in the belief they are getting a higher quality. There's many more things we could say about dog foods but none of these were relavant to answering the question.

Feralpup Yep thats right Bigger trouble is they can list it to suit themselves. Some will just simply say rice,you assume its rice as we know rice but not necessarily so - while others will split it and say rice bran, rice flour ,ground rice ,rice hulls . With the A food - if in fact the lamb is the higher ingredient which is implied because its first on the ingredient list then why have they split the rice up into 3 different bits .Obviously if they just listed it as rice then it would need to be first on the list in front of the meat. So you could have 2 foods which are the same ratio of meat to grain but one has been smarter in the way they have written the label. In fact a food which lists rice then meat instead of meat and 3 different bits of the rice plant may have more meat that the one that has split the plant up into bits. Its not possible for you to know this however, because the amount per kilo of ingredients of food is never noted.When they say vitamins and minerals have been added do they mean a cup ful or a pinch per tonne? Why do they list the protein anaysis but never the percentage of meat protein per plant protein and does it really matter anyway as some amino acids and vitamins etc are killed by the heat used in processing .

Many many things we could talk about here. Firstly when we talk about the digestibility of protein we assume among other things that rice is rice .So we know rice is more digestible than wheat so rice must be better - right? But rice can also be that stuff thats left after all the human stuff is taken out - the hulls . You know the stuff they use in cat litter? Is that really as digestible as rice they used to test protein digestibility with? Is all parts of the rice plant as digestible as all the others bits including the bits humans dont eat? How do we know if a dog food which says rice is using one or the other or both unless they qualify it and even if they do how do we know how much . Is it heaps and therefore a problem or is it just a handful and good fibre? Will it make any difference to the health of our dogs over time or are we trying to work it all out for nothing? For each cup full of dog food how much meat is there really there if the first ingredient is meat but we dont know how much of anything else there is. Is the second ingredient minutely smaller than the first or hugely different. :p

O.K. A is actually the first 4 ingredient list for 2 foods [maybe more] One is described as a super premium and the other is a premium. One retails for around $90 and the other around $110 for a 15kg bag. B is the first 4 ingredients for a food which is around $35 for a 20kg bag We currently have one group being fed the premium which cost me $94 for 15 kgs and another group being fed the cheap one as part of a short pilot study . In about 12 weeks our new research project will be launched which will compare how foods impact on things over long periods of time which we dont see straight away.We have many questions which we hope will be answered. Thanks to everyone who answered as it helped a lot in what we're trying to put together. And Ill come back soon and explain it all more clearly . In the mean time I think the ingredient list especially the first 4 ingredients alone is a poor indication of quality . No measurements, food splitting , ambiguous descriptions etc . Julie

Geez you guys are hard. You dont know whats in the mince mix so maybe the breeder has added things to balance it. Its highly unlikely this was caused by salmonella and could be any number of things bacterial or parasites especially considering it was over a week after the pup came home. Dr Ian Billinghurst and several other canine nutrition people recommend puppies only eat chicken necks or wings for the first few days after they go home and its very common for BARF feeding breeders to recommend this. Ive got more concern over the vet treatment and recommendations than what I have over the breeder and I hope that you ring the breeder and tell them whats going on. In the mean time I would give 5 mils twice per day of Aloe juice as Ive seen this work miracles in very fast time with both puppies and kittens who are not eating and some pro biotics. [yakkault]

Giving you extra information defeats the purpose of my question which was to try to decide whether it was possible for someone to be able to make a decision based on which food was a better quality by only going by the first 4 ingredients because of something I turned up re marketing . I gave you this particular set of ingredients so the choice between the two based on these 4 ingredients alone could be demonstrated . There was no need for rude PM's or for anyone to feel I was challenging them on what they feed or how they make their choices.

Neither have any chemical preservatives, added colourants, animal by-products or corn.