Steve

I would really doubt very much that the Gonio results would have any bearing on eye-staining whatsoever. Both my older sibes (15 & 12) have poor and moderate drainage angles and NEITHER has had any staining at all ever - one is a silver/grey, the other an agouti. In fact BOTH have perfect eyesight! Rae Your dogs may have poor and moderate drainage angles which dont result in staining but a dog which has severe drainage angles may show tearing and Gonioscopy can also find scarring or other damage to the drainage angle which may explain why a dog would be staining.

maybe you misunderstood or i did, what i am saying is failing an eye test before or after eye staining occurs have absolutely nothing to do with each other. maybe as you got this information through someone else the information was muddled somewhere along the line. i am not sure that the person that has this dog if you tell her maybe would not appreciate everyone talking about their dog. Have to agree with you Sue isn't that against forum rules?? No this isnt against forum rules because in this case the owner has given permission for the thing to be spoken about but even if they hadnt nothing has been said here to identify the owner or the dog.

Im not sure whats going on here but it feels like its a bit nasty and sarcastic. I think part of the problem is that one is seeing 'eye exam' as those conditions listed above ; Congenital eye diseases examined in Aust and NZ are CEA (Collie Eye Anomaly), MRD (Multifocal Retinal Dysplasia), TRD (Total Retinal Dysplasia), CHC (Congenital Hereditary Cataract), GHPV (Persistent Hyperplastic Primary Vitreous), PPM (Persistent Pupillary Membrane) and G (Goniodysgenesis). Non Congenital eye diseases checked on examination are GPRA (Generalised Progressive Retinal Atrophy), RPED (Retinal Pigment Epithelial Dystrophy), HC (Hereditary Cataract), PPL (Primary Lens Luxation). as being tested but you may be forgetting that these are not the only eye conditions which are of a heritable nature which will most definitely cause tearing and should cause a failed eye test.I bred a litter of beagles once which failed their eye tests because 3 in the litter had districhiasis. Epiphora or blocked tear ducts are not the only eye condition which causes tear staining and any vet can pick up several eye issues which are not on the above list which will cause this which are not associated with the actual tear duct. Entropian,trichiasis,districhiasis ,corneal ulcers are a few .These are seen by the naked eye so they dont come under the things normally looked at by a specialist eye vet because the assumption is that they will be picked up in any vet surgery.That doesnt mean the causes are not genetic or that anyone is saying something which isnt true. If you add apple cider vinegar to the drinking water it will stop the staining but not the cause of the watery eyes.

There are several different theories about swimmers and there's fair evidence that its a genetic condition but I believe if you look at it really closely that its mineral issue. So it may be caused by a genetic predisposiion to not being able to readily absorb some of the nutrients, it may be something with the bitch for whatever reason not getting enough of the right minerals through the placenta. It was these kind of thngs - thOse that appear to be genetic- which pottinger looked at several decades ago when he showed that many things we see as genetic are in fact nutritional. Based on this I would expect that pups which are under stress are more likely to suffer this condition than those which arent. Here's why. The mineral that hardens things is calcium - it's what causes hardening of the arteries and among other things hardening of the bones . With swimmers the rib bones are soft so the assumption is that either the diet of the bitch is deficient in calcium or some other vitamin or mineral which helps calcium to absorb normally into the bloodstream or that the pup isnt producing the hormone required to make it all work properly . The inability to make the hormone quickly enough to prevent the calcium from being taken from the bones is in fact linked to too much calcium because it slows down the ability to produce the hormone . This is how eclampsia sets in . The bitch is getting too much clacium in comparison to other minerals so her bloodseam looses its efficiency in being able to make the hormone quickly enough when she needs itt and she's under stress. So the symptom of a mal absorption of calcium can be a swimmer but no one is really sure about why its not all working the way it should. BUT- Dog milk has the right ratio and the right type of calcium to make it all right -to teach the pup how to produce this hormone and deposit clcium to the ribs and other bones- even if the bitch has been deficient in one or more they are taken from her bones and bloodstream to do this - so the best hope of treating it and not having any other symptoms pick up later is to try to avoid supplimentary feeding of the pup and feeding the bitch raw chicken wings. Many times you can pull a swimmer through and you feel all warm and fuzzy and believe the problem is gone [and the swimmer syndrome] is no longer evident but problem is that the thing that causes swimmers also causes other things you cant see . I would under no condition use a swimmer for breeding and I would be very aware of their diet . Things like skin problems and kidney, lung , heart and liver problems may show up as the pup grows into adult hood unless the diet is addressed properly. Because the events are so far apart they arent associtated with the swimmer syndrome but its worth considering in my opinion.

Tell her to swap the dog for a rabbit. Yep My thoughts too. :rolleyes:

Aloe Vera Has vitamin B 12 . Last time I looked it was the only one that did.

You can feed a vegetarian diet but the most important thing you will need to remember, is to feed high quality protein. The amino acids which are in meat are essential nutrients, and if you're not feeding meats, you have to supplement them. You can get some of these from Aloe Juice, grains, tofu and beans eggs, dairy. But each and every protein source has a different amino acid chain and concentration. Oils are also an essential ingredient in a vegetarian diet. This is in my opinion a really bad choice and Id do all I could to talk her out of it but at least send her on a mission to research and try to cover at least most of it. You have to remember that some amino acids are not usually found in anything other than meat . Aloe Juice has all of the known amino acids essential and non essential and is a good suppliment for a vegetarian dog but you just cant get enough in to be able to get enough of them from this source. So even adding suppliments such as Taurine and other amino acids they have been extracted from meat anyway. You can argue till the cows come home about omnivore or carniovore but its a huge error to compare a human digestive system with a dogs . We produce enzymes differently and its not about what the jaws or he gut is equiped for its the bio availability of nutrients and how they are absrbed into the bloodstream that will decide whether the dog can utilise them so they are in optimum health. There's lots of different types and sources of calcium but feeding some isnt a guarantee it will be able to be absorbed and used and calcium from animals is easier and most absorbable for a dog. If you change the type of calcium it needs different ratios of other minerals to do its job than it would if it was getting it by choice.[via chewing on a bone]

Autopsy has been done and nothing out of the ordinary is picked up. Mine werent dehydrated . Marble statue is a good description.

No excessive licking in mine either .Part of the frustration for me was that I dont think the vet had ever seen it and when I describe it I get the impression that Im not really conveying that this was like it was. Ive seen pups with Hypo everything before and that kind of seizure is no where near what I saw in these pups. Someone said the other day that they felt I was just trying to find an answer for fading puppy syndrome and I have had a think about that but if thats what this is its very different to any other fading puppy Ive ever seen.

You know every now and then my husband and I talk about those pups and thank god I havent seen it since but the way they went stiff still makes me wonder.I still cant believe it and Im sure to this day when I try to describe it people think Im exaggerating I wouldnt call it stiff puppy - Id call it wooden puppy. When you see it you just cant believe it.Especially when they go from that to back to life! Lilli I wish I had something to give you to help you to give this a fair go but it has me stumped and I think perhaps we should do blood tests on the bitch and the pups so we can compare them and hopefully find a common link. Its the only thing I can think of which may provide some answers. Im so sorry you're living through this .

Ill stick my neck out and say I dont agree with your vet - and - think about it - how can one vet tell a dog owner to feed metamucil to solve the problem and another if its not diet related? The best way for a dog to have nice healthy clean anal glands which dont need humans to clean them is to be fed a diet which makes them strain a bit when they go to the toot. In my opinion metamucil will make it worse not better and if two days a week you feed nothing else but raw chicken wings you will find there is no problem.

As many of you know the MDBA is sponsoring Dr Jean Dodds on her trip to Brisbane in June .[Very famous canine immunologist and specialist in vaccination protocols] She is doing two sessions - one for dog owners and breeders and another for vets .Please feel free to download our flyer from our website to give to your vets in the hope that they can atend and we can have everyone educated on whats best for our dogs.

The reward for the dog is when you keep walking or you move this is the reaction desired when a herding dog does this so the first thing you have to do is stop. Our Corgi babies like to have a go at this and when they nipped the kids squealed and ran - made it worse so we trained the kids rather than the dog first. They stop and then shake an empty coke can with some stones it and masking tape over the hole so it makes a nasty sound when shaken .When you walk the dog on lead you need to make it more interested in watching your hands rather than your heels so often a treat as it starts to walk and do the right thing works well too.

Quick reminder that if anyone has a nomination to go in for the Dog Owners Choice Awards we only have about 20 more days before this years nominations close . There are 40 categories so surely you guys can find someone who owns or breeds, or rewcues or works with dogs to nominate www.mdba.net.au. You can email your nominations to [email protected] We need contact details of the person you are nominating and what category . Your reason for nominating them . Your details and your relationship to them. Remember they have a better chance if what you put in your nomination tells us more about them . Many of the categories have a cash award as well as a trophy and certificate and all nominees get certificates . Categories 1. Master Breeder of the Year To be eligible for nomination for this category, the nominee must be a financial member of the MDBA and be nominated by a puppy buyer. This award is not about the success of the breeder’s dogs in dog-related events or the amount of litters they breed. This is about standards of service, support and ethics provided to their puppy buyers. 2. Breeder of the Year To be eligible for nomination in this category, the nominee must be a registered breeder (not necessarily ANKC) and be nominated by a puppy buyer This award is not about the success of the breeder’s dogs in dog-related events or the amount of litters they breed. This is about standards of service, support and ethics provided to their puppy buyers. 3. Master Responsible Pet Owner of the Year To be eligible to be nominated in this category, the nominee must be a financial member of the MDBA. 4. Responsible Pet Owner of the Year To be eligible for nomination in this category, the nominee must own a dog and be an Australian resident. 5. Best Master Junior Responsible Pet Owner of the Year This category is open to all dog owners under the age of 16years as at 31st December 2007. Must be a financial member of the MDBA. 6. Junior Responsible Pet Owner of the Year This category is open to all dog owners under the age of 16 years as at 31st December 2007. Must be an Australian resident. 7. Master Puppy Buyer of the Year Must be nominated by the person who bred their dog and that person must be an MDBA breeder member. 8. Puppy Buyer of the Year Must be nominated by the person who bred their dog and that person must be eligible for nomination in category 2. 9. Rescuer of the Year Must be nominated by someone who has adopted one of their dogs, or by someone who is a foster carer attached to them. This award is not about how many dogs they have rescued but about their standards of service, support and ethics to their clients and foster carers. Open to Australian residents. 10. Foster Carer of the Year To be eligible for nomination for this category the nominee must be nominated by a rescue group/service. This award is not about how many dogs a foster carer has fostered but about their standards of service and dedication. Open to Australian residents. 11. Pet-Sitter of the Year To be eligible to be nominated for this category, the nominee must be nominated by a client for excellence in standards of service. Open to Australian residents. 12. Most Supportive Breeder Vet of the Year To be eligible for nomination in this category the nominee must be nominated by a breeder who is eligible for nomination in category 1 or 2. Open to Australian residents. 13. Most Supportive Pet Owner Vet of the Year To be eligible for nomination in this category the nominee must be nominated by a client. Open to Australian residents. 14. Best Breeder Product of the Year This must be nominated by a breeder who is eligible for nomination in category 1 and 2. 15. Best Pet Owner Product of the Year 16. Best Groomer of the Year Must be nominated by a client. This award is about standards in service. Open to Australian residents. 17. Best Dog Trainer of the Year Must be nominated by a client. This award is not about awards dogs trained have achieved but about the trainer’s dedication and standards in service. Open to Australian residents. 18. Best MDBA Student of the Year Must be a current student of the Master Dog Breeders Academy and nominated by a faculty member of the MDBA. 19. Best Breeder Magazine/Newspaper of the Year Must be nominated by a breeder who is eligible for nomination in categories 1 and 2. This is not about the amount of distribution but rather about its usefulness to breeders. 20. Best Dog Magazine/Newspaper of the Year 21. Best Dog-Related Article of the Year 22. Most Dog-Friendly Council of the Year 23. Most Dog-Friendly State Government 24. Best Dog-Related Website of the Year 25. Excellence in Contribution towards Canine Science Research 26. Excellence in Contribution towards Promotion of Purebred Dog Ownership 27. Excellence in Contribution and/or Leadership in Canine Affairs 28. Boarding Kennel of the Year Must be nominated by a client. Must be located in Australia. 29. Pet Transport Service of the Year Must be nominated by a client and branches or based in Australia. 30. Best Vet Nurse/Receptionist of the Year Must be located in Australia. 31. Best Breeder Book of the Year Must be nominated by a those who are eligible for nomination in category 1 and 2. 32. Best Dog Owner Book of the Year 33. Best Breeder Website of the Year Must be nominated by those who are eligible for nomination in category 1 and 2. 34. Best Dog Apparel Manufacturer of the Year Must be nominated by a client or customer. Must be located in Australia. 35. Best Dog Supply Retail Outlet Must be nominated by a client or customer. Must be based or located in Australia. 36. Best Dog Photographer of the Year Must be nominated by a client or customer. 37. Best Canine Video or DVD of the Year 38. Best Dog Insurance Provider of the Year Must be nominated by a client or customer Must be based in Australia. 39. Best Dog Artist of the Year Must be nominated by a customer or client. 40. Best Dog-Friendly Tourist Destination Must be nominated by a dog owner who is a client /visitor. Must be located in Australia. MDBA Prides Its Self on a Fair and Ethical Judging System Judging for the MDBA Dog Owners Choice Awards A selection of judges are first nominated by the MDBA Board of directors, and then short listed to a panel of 6, who represent the range of experiences, practices and ideologies of the dog community, irrespective of geography. Identification of Nominees will be masked to maintain anonymity of all entries. There is no opportunity for persuasive members of the panel to influence others, or for debate or collusion. One judge will not know who any other judge is. No nominee will know who any judge is. In fact the judges will walk away not knowing who the winners are. The identity of the judges will only be released after the judging has been completed so too the identity of the nominees they have been judging. Judging will be supervised by an independent Auditor. This method of judging results in the most fair and ethical judging system

Im curious to know why it was thought this breeder was an MDBA Member .

Its pretty well agreed that the mode of inheritance for this is dominant inheritance which means an abnormal gene from one parent is capable of causing disease even though the matching gene from the other parent is normal. The abnormal gene "dominates" the pair of genes. If just one parent has a dominant gene defect, EACH pup has a 50% chance of inheriting the disorder. Please take note that this is also a noted genetic disorder in the shizt- zu and that it may be unnoticed in the parent it usually become worse in progressive generatons. Ths is a prime example of what can happen when dogs are crossbred. Even though you may see a lessened incidence of recessive disorders [ commonly known as hybrid vigour] there's a a hell of a lot of things which will still be there because recessive genes aren't the only ones breeders have to take into consideration. Im really sorry to hear that your dog has been diagnosed with this problem and if it were my dog I would give it Board certified Aloe Juice twice daily - Cant do any harm but may do some good.

Monsterpup is doing great guns and has turned in some fantastic work which really shows she's understanding what she's researching and learning. Its equivalent to about 3rd year uni and anyone who does it will really know they know more than most by the time they are finished . Its based on uni type model . You get study notes and a text book with sets of assignments and you need to research and understand to be able to answer. It doesnt push any particular way of feeding but it will very much help people to get a better understanding of what answers for their dog's health can be found and answered by knowing more about nutrition. It will help people to look after their dogs better and be able to advise others to help their dogs too. Its definitely a good leg up too if you were interested in employment or consultancy in the field. I think its fair to say that it gives you much more knowledge about what your dog needs to eat to stay healthy [and why] than most if not all vets .

This recipe is intended to be fed raw. 2 kg pet chicken mince 1 cup of wheat germ HALF kg of oatmeal (uncooked) 1/4 Cup vegetable oil 10 eggs 3 tablespoon of gelatin 1 tablespoon molasses a teaspoon of iodised salt SPLASH OF APPLE CIDAR VINEGAR 2 tablespoons vegemite Mix all ingredients together well, much like a meatloaf...give small amounts often Add one blackmores pregnancy multi vitamin per day for 1 week then drop it back to half a tab per day.

Depends what rescources you have and what size and what age dogs you take .But as long as you have an area which keeps the new dog away from the other dogs, which is easily cleaned its preferrable to nothing. So even if you section off a smallish run area ,use a cormer in your laundry ,a shed etc that wont cut down all the risks but realistically unless you have a facility which a million bucks has gone into you wont cut down all the risks anyway. Some stuff like vynal or heavy plastic might can be used as a non porous surface if you cant afford sealed concrete too . Have a good look at what your biggest issues are - Parvo and anything that may infect your family are the two biggies and you can cut down on some just by having a strict protocol and a few tools as they come in. A hands on exam will pick up any skin problems , a black light will tell you about fungi , take its temp ,worm it with a good all wormer not a cheap one and bath it with apple cidar vinegar .If you spot anything take steps to treat it straight away and if you dont know if its vaccinated hit it with some parvac . O.K. Its going to cost about 10 dollars per dog as it comes through [including the parvac] but you've already dealt with and or identified some of the biggies. 5 days will tell you whether you have parvo or enteritis, e Coli etc .But if its been exposed to parvo it may be able to shed virus even without symptoms so to be safe you need at least 14 days where its poo cant get in contact with anything else and where it can be easily cleaned up after.If parvo does turn up you have kept the infection risks to an acceptable level as long as your own dogs are always up to date on their vaccinations . You also have to consider where you are going to clean your food and water bowls ,how and where you will do the laundry its exposed to ,where you will get rid of poos and materials such as newspapers etc it might use as litter ,where you will wash your hands and what with and whether you need to change shoes or clothing after certain activities. So you dont have to think sealed concrete and brick because even this if not managed properly isnt an instant solution . I know it sounds a bit corny and some may think its a bit overboard but even if you only take one now and then its a good idea to do up a list of what needs to be done when a new dog comes in and consider the risks based on where its coming from etc . Rescue people should be working with their foster carers to help them to be prepared for new arrivals and what they need to keep it and their family safest and talking to them about hygiene and cleanliness etc. Dont assume people just know because they dont and even people who should know forget until there's a big deal.Helping your foster carers to be more educated and knowledgable means less potential problems for everyone.

Hang on Erin. Are you feeding them anything else - table scraps , chicken wings etc?

We have only just completed our new quarantine area - 2 of them. if you didnt know better you would say they looked like bathrooms . Sealed wall tiles right up the walls [ 2 metres] and sealed floor tiles with two drains in each . We change boots and clothes on the way in and out and nothing such as food bowls or water bowls comes out . They are all cleaned inside the room and there is an exhaust fan to suck up anything thats floating around in the air too. Everything is set up for the ability to clean and nothing can get caught in nooks or crannys and incubate - they each have hot running water and a washing machine - everything is washed in bleach and hung in the sun to dry. No other dog or cat can get within 6 metres. No human other than me or my husband get to go in these areas. Any thing that comes in stays in these areas for 7 days in pens 6 feet x 4 feet and after 7 days they can access an outside penned area which is sealed concrete floors, drains and a double fence so no dogs can get within 3 feet of the dogs, drains etc I recently had two rescue kittens in one of them which came in with chlamydia , ear mite , fleas and worms .This allowed me to isolate them, treat them ,vaccinate them etc before they came out and said hello to my animals. In the last few weeks we've used the bob - cat which removed the top layer of soil in my exercise areas and we've used fire to make sure nothing is incubating here before we start. So hopefully any bugs that were already in are dead and if I make sure everything getting passed a certain point is clear - my dogs are safe. The reality is though that not everyone can go to the extremes Ive gone to but we recently had a parvo scare which threatened my own dogs and for me this is an unacceptable risk and I never want to have to face that again . I am responsible for my own dogs health and safety and any minute now part of the MDBA feeding trials will be conducted here so if I couldnt have an area which took the risks down I would be in a constant state of stress and fear for them. I guess much depends on the size and age of the dogs you are taking in but If I was taking any of the pups that came from Griffith, money and space was short I would set up a cage as big as space would allow in a laundry or shed and keep them in there as comfortable as possible for at least 7 days - preferrably 10 days while I treated them for worms ,mites ring worm staph or strep etc and made sure they werent incubating parvo or kennel cough. You have to understand ,what you want to do ,what you are prepared to risk and compromise on to do it and how you can eliminate some of the risks based on what you have to work with .There's literally hundreds of ways you can do this by understanding the deseases and being aware of your resources .You may only be able to quarantine small dogs for example . But one thing is for certain ignoring the fact there is a definite risk to your own dogs, and your family isn't the most acceptable of management plans. You may feel that your dogs arent at much risk because they have been vaccinated but there's lots more things stray dogs can bring in that arent covered by vaccinations,arent obvious when they come in and once your environment is contaminated any you bring in after that are at risk too.

All commercial food is dead food . No matter what it says on the bag heat and processing and storage alter the food before you get it to your dogs' dish . Think back to the basics you learn in high school regarding how vitamins are destroyed when foods are cooked so even before you look any where else the vitamins such as bcde are long gone before you feed it out .The ones which have probiotics listed mean nothing because you already know they have to be kept in the fridge to remain viable .Also dogs need enzymes to assimilate their food - usually these enzymes are in the foods if they are not cooked or processed and if they are not there the dog has to take enzymes from other organs for the foods to be moved from one end to the other. Over time this causes health issues and impacts on joints immune systems and longevity. Thrive D is a product which replaces enzymes usually lost in commercial foods.[there's others around but I dont remember their names] So adding this type of thing and a childrens' muliti vitamin each day makes up for what is not in your dog food. You cant judge the quality of the food by what comes out the other end either. Think about what makes more poo for you - peanuts or fairy floss- which one is better for you ?

If you have to feed a commercial food .Supercoat is a good as any of them from a health point of view and if you want to make less poos add some Thrive D or similar which you should add to any commercial dog food anyway.

Wizard1 Do you mind me asking what your dog is fed? Do you have any info re his Mum?

Not all dogs are lactose intolerant .Its all about an enzyme - lactase which mammals need to digest lactose. Animals are born with an ability to make lactase but after they are weaned and dont have milk anymore their body forgets how to make it and they show side effects from eating it. If your dog drinks it without a problem - thats great . If a dog is given milk regularly from birth it will continue to be able to make the enzyme and can tolerate it without a problem.