Steve

There is something very very wrong with this and it makes you start to notice other things you didn't before. Did you know that unless you have written paperwork from your vet that you HAVE APPROVAL FROM THE VET TO NOT vaccinate your dogs and cats for distemper,hepatitis,parvovirus and canine cough [for dogs] feline enteritis and feline respiratory disease [for cats] as per MANUFACTURERS recommendations that you are breaking the law? NSW LAW BREEDING DOGS AND CATS section 8.2.1.6.

i disagree. i pay professionals for their skills, experience and knowledge. if i followed what you have said then before i bought a house i should have studied real estate law to make sure not only i but the real estate agent and my conveyencer were all doing the right and legal thing. that just doesnt work. we have an expectation that the professionals we pay give us the correct advice. you cant use the drunk driving situation because we have been educated and there are campaigns in the media to let us know its not ok to do this Yes that where I'm coming from too. And if it is illegal to ask if a vet will do the op how are you meant to know until you do ask?

Yep I know ignorance is no defence but is the onus on the owner ? Is it against the law to ASK for the op if you dont have the paper work?

Steve that is fantastic. You never know where help will come from. :D Yes I was pretty impressed.

Ive been trying to keep it emptied since the Jed disaster but its fighting a loosing battle.

I know that at least one vet believes that there are two different ops and only one is technically termed debarking .The other allows the dog to bark but more softly and is done via a completely different surgical procedure. Therefore this vet's belief is that voice lowering isn't illegal because its not debarking.That there is no legislation to cover voice lowering so therefore no paper work is required as it is something decided on by the owner and the vet which they consider to be in the best interests of the dog. the vet in question in this circumstance gave a lecture on this to the owner and made the owner believe it was two different procedures and no paper work was required. This begs the question is debarking the same as voice lowering when they have a different technical name. If your vet tells you that you don't need the paperwork because its not the same then wouldn't most of us take that as fact ? There is also another law pertaining to vets which cancels out all others that allows the vet to make decisions and operate etc when the vet believes its in the best interests of the dog. Its all well and good to say we are responsible for finding out what teh law is but just this exercise here right now demonstrates how difficult that is .how are ordinary every day dog owners to know if we dont?

This lady still cant find accommodation for her and her kids to be able to get out of a cabin at the caravan park but on Tuesday I dropped off some food and some other stuff for her and for her dogs. - Thank You Eukanuba! This morning I had a call for help from someone via a nurse in Wagga base hospital who's dog hasn't been fed for 3 days and she needs someone to go and feed and water the dog [which is deaf] while she is in hospital for the next couple of weeks. Our fire victim has put her hand up to do this job for us even though she doesn't even have a car.

When ever we start talking about debarking I get frustrated because none of it is logical. I like logical. It is not logical to hold an owner as a criminal because they asked the vet to debark when they dont have the paperwork required at law. But I know the law says if someone commissions another person to tail dock they are guilty of a criminal offence. Could be that the same applies for debarking. The vet performed the op - not the owner - so its not logical to me to punish the owner when they didn't perform the act. However, if the law says you are guilty for asking then anyone who asks and the vets says "No I cant do that because you don't have the paperwork" is guilty anyway because they asked. If asking without paper work is against the law then logically anyone who asks is as guilty whether the vet does the op or not - right?

Thank you - it all helps. What are the penalties for an owner in NSW for asking a vet to debark a dog if they dont have the necessary order from council, they didnt know they need that and the vet does not inform them they need that before the op is done? Is asking for the op and giving approval for the op something an owner can be prosecuted for ? What are the penalties for an owner in NSW for asking a vet to debark a dog if they were not asked to produce a stat dec and they had no knowledge this was a requirement before the op could be done? If the ops were completed approx 4 plus years ago and the owner cant remember whether they signed a stat dec or not how long are they required to hold the stat dec at the vets and how long is the owner required to keep a copy of the stat dec. If the owner signs a stat dec and did not keep a copy can they be prosecuted and if so what for? How long after the event do they have to keep these records and how long after the event can they be prosecuted for animal cruelty if in fact the owner is guilty rather than or as well as the vet?

http://www.vpb.nsw.gov.au/Boardtalk/2002/d...mber2002_10.htm quote Those circumstances and conditions are set out in the POCTA Regulation. Reg. 10 provides that the “prescribed circumstance” is that “the veterinary surgeon who performs the [debarking] operation is, before doing so, provided with a statutory declaration to the effect that the dog will be destroyed unless the operation is performed because the dog’s barking causes an unacceptable public nuisance.” problem is there is no date on that link so I dont know how old it is.

Yes I thought until relatively recently a stat dec was all that was needed but these dogs were done about 4 years ago - so the time may be an issue and have different requirements.

So If im an ordinary every day Jo public who is being put onth spot by my neighbours because my dog is barking - and its driving me nuts too. I go to the vet unaware that I need specific paperwork as prescribed in the above link and the vet does the op. Am I in the poo because I asked for it to be done or is the vet in the poo for not getting the correct paper work before they operated or are we both going down?

Also Ive got some thing floating around which tells me there is a time limit on when you can be charged with cruelty - I thought it was 6 months . I'd normally have this stuff at my finger tips but lost it all when my computer died a couple of months ago.

I need to know What the current NSW laws are regarding debarking and when these laws came in.What these laws were 3 to 4 years ago. What the RSPCA can or cant do regarding entering your property and examining your dog without being invited. Im going off now to gather some info on NSW companion animals laws and POCTAA but if anyone has a head start for me or want to give me a hand that would be great.

We all make mistakes and we all usually learn the hard way. Just do as the CC tell you and chalk it up to experience.

My main register pups go out at a higher price than my limited register ones. I work like mad to build relationships with my puppy buyers and the ones who want to show or breed get a hell of a lot more of me and my resources than the limited register people. They also get as close to perfect that I can breed. Our legal people have advised that the only way a contract for sale can be upheld is if the dog is sold for a different price for breeding than as a pet. I sell the dog on limited register at an agreed price on the condition that it isnt used for breeding.If the buyer breaches the contract and uses the dog for breeding then they agree to pay me the agreed difference because we both agree at the time of sale that a breeding dog is a higher price and the only reason they got the dog at a lower price was due to their assurances that it was not going to be bred with.

Not entirely. Dusty was bought as a pet, but I show her and many other people are in the same position as me. They have no intention of breeding, but the family pooch is a goodie and so becomes the introduction to the world of dog shows. She was not bought as a show dog, she was bought as a pet however the breeder mentioned she was good enough for the show ring and so I gave it a go. Yes this is true but either the dog is graded as good enough for showing and or breeding at the time of sale - goes on main register so the owner can decide to show or breed or the breeder upgrades to main when the buyer comes back if the dog is good enough and if there are no known nasties inthe lines.This is different I think to what is being discussed here. When I send a pup home on limited register the buyer knows what that means and I tell them why. If a pup goes out with limited register and there is a reason why I think it shouldnt be used for breeding I tell them so at the time. - Mum has had a C section etc and why its not in the dog's or their best interest to breed with it. If the opposite applies and I may be O.K. about an upgrade I tell them this too as I want them to come back to me and get a head start with my support rather than fall in love with it and decide its good enough to breed etc and muck it up.

I may have missed it but how long after the pup went home did it get sick? From what Im reading there is no obligation on you to even consider refunding the purchase price. Write to Vic dogs and tell them the situation and ask them what you are expected to do.Have that put in writing. What you think he may or may not do with papers or why he may want them isnt counted. Just do as they advise and learn from the experience. You chip the pup before it goes home and enter that number on the pedigree application.You insure the pup when it leaves with a 6 week free insurance policy. He doesnt get to call the shots - you do and you have no choice but to follow directions the CC give you.If it doesnt fit in with what he wants direct him to them.

The purpose of a registered pedigree is proof of parentage and if you dont want to breed or show why would you want the pedigree on the main register? If you come to me and you tell me you want a pet pup I select them differently to how I select a main register pup. I consider genetic issues which may have shown or that Im aware may be a potential problem in breeding, I consider whelping issues and assess the pup for all manner of things and not just whether or not its the best I can breed in line with the standard. If you want a pup which you may want to show and or breed from me you get it without restriction but its the best I can put on the ground and chosen differently. I wont buy a pup unless its main registered and it has no restriction on it but I know when Im buying it and so does the breeder that I'm probably going to use it for breeding assuming when I get to wanting to do that it fits in with what Im after for my breeding program. If I put a pup out with limited registration it hasnt been assessed as to its impact on future generations and its only been assessed as to its expected life as a pet and not a breeding dog. I expect that before someone uses dogs Ive bred for breeding they know how that may impact on the breed and unless I tell them what I know of the ancestor's health and how that may impact they cant have that info.

Fact is you can breed em as often as you want and some canine reproduction specialists and most vets will tell you its better for the dog to allow her to breed every cycle anyway. The guideleines are just that and not law. You can also sell them as young as you want, you can give em away or have them PTS etc. If you are a registered breeder you are not able to do these things according to the code of ethics but still this is not law.

Sorry Erny ,just saw this thread. We [MDBA ] have been in there telling them what we think but based on experience Im not hopeful of being able to head it off.

My advice to puppy buyers is this: If the puppy is of good quality and sold on limited register, go elsewhere as the conditions IMO are "over the top" as essentially, you are purchasing in reality nothing more than what used to be formally recognised as an unpapered dog Don't be fooled by the reasons why "your" puppy on limited register is best for you, it isn't best for you at all. Your integrity is being challenged what you may do with the dog and the breeder doesn't trust your intentions for one. Secondly, the choice to show or breed is your choice to make.........it's your dog, your life. You have done the right thing avoiding pet shops and BYB's to purchase a health tested pure breed dog. If you get the run around with restrictions and closed shop tactics to result in an unpapered dog, why not have a look at some rescue dogs instead which have the same restrictions as the limited register pure breed and are also in great need for a home Im not sure you quite get what the pedigree system is all about.

However - these are in the guideline section and not law.