Steve

I would add: I will desex my dog unless it its part of a registered breeding program. Oops - and another. I will only source my dog from responsible, ethical breeders and rescues. Actually I don't know how but that code is on our website and it shouldn't be.That was the original and has been replaced with the one below but for what ever reason the old one is showing on our website. Lucky I bought it here or I wouldn't have picked the error up. Bugger. 1. I will always provide my dog with adequate, food, shelter, fresh water and exercise. 2. I will equip my dog for life by providing it with good socialization, training and manners 3. I will ensure my dog receives adequate veterinary attention 4. I will take full responsibility for all of my dog’s actions 5. I will not allow my dog to roam freely except in designated off leash areas And then only in a responsible manner. 6. I will provide adequate fencing and containment systems to suit the breed of dog I own 7. I will not allow my dog to cause a problem to or lessen the quality of life for any person in the community by barking, destroying property, threatening or mauling humans or other animals. 8. I will take responsibility for any mess or excrement caused by my dog in both private and public places 9. I will lead by example and advocate responsible dog ownership within the community 10. I will refrain from any action, which will place the MDBA in disrepute. 11. I will not breed my dog without first upgrading my membership to the MDBA breeders code of conduct and complying with all of the requirements which are expected of an MDBA breeder member.

Am I correct in saying that if you get a dog de-barked and you are in victoria (once you've jumped through all the hurdles), you cant show it? I have no idea how all the breeders in Vic with 'talkative' breeds cope. No you can show it if you have jumped through all of the hoops. But even if you try to dodge it and cut across a border where regs are not as tough - if the dog has ever lived in Victoria before the op you cant show it. How would the judges know if the dog was debarked ??? The judges dont care.Its the state law not anything to do with Vic Dogs - The RSPCA investigate and raid you. The charge is cruelty to animals. Amazing. You alter your dog, under anaesthetic, in order to give it and everyone around you a good life and you're done for animal cruelty....report animal cruelty (real animal cruelty) to the RSPCA and you'd be lucky to even get anyone round there to have a look. Think they need to get their priorities sorted out Cant blame the RSPCA the government is responsible for introducing the laws and then the RSPCA are able to police it - Its stupid but you have to change the law not the policeman.

Lets try it this way. Would you ad anything to this code of conduct for responsible pet ownership? I will always provide my dog with adequate, food, shelter, fresh water and exercise. I will equip my dog for life by providing it with good socialization, training and manners. I will ensure my dog receives adequate veterinary attention. I will take full responsibility for all of my dog's actions. I will not allow my dog to roam freely except in designated off leash areas. I will provide adequate fencing and containment systems to suit the breed of dog I own. I will not allow my dog to cause a problem to or lessen the quality of life for any person in the community by barking, destroying property, threatening or mauling humans or other animals. I will take responsibility for any mess or excrement caused by my dog in both private and public places. I will lead by example and advocate responsible dog ownership within the community.

And how many of these 600,000 are now in shelters across Australia, have been put to sleep or live in conditions that are detrimental to their health and well-being? Dont quote me because Im running on memory but I think around 250,000 are put down each year.

Um, but she produces oodles. Since when is that not crossbreeding? Yep you're right I read it in breeding - she cross breeds alright. Sorry about that. Julie

Am I correct in saying that if you get a dog de-barked and you are in victoria (once you've jumped through all the hurdles), you cant show it? I have no idea how all the breeders in Vic with 'talkative' breeds cope. No you can show it if you have jumped through all of the hoops. But even if you try to dodge it and cut across a border where regs are not as tough - if the dog has ever lived in Victoria before the op you cant show it. How would the judges know if the dog was debarked ??? The judges dont care.Its the state law not anything to do with Vic Dogs - The RSPCA investigate and raid you. The charge is cruelty to animals.

People are not either hobby breeders or puppy farmers. Many would fall in between. Too many dogs to keep them all living in the house, too few to deserve that most hated and emotion-ridden label of "Puppy Farmer". Yes I agree so how do you go to work on having one code which is best for the dogs regardless of how many? Up until now they are all written as if we have 100 dogs . The one thats in play at the moment via the RSPCA wants every breeder to list their addresses on a website as part of a mandatory code. Might be O.K. for a person who has kennels and staff but what if your kennel is your lounge room?

Am I correct in saying that if you get a dog de-barked and you are in victoria (once you've jumped through all the hurdles), you cant show it? I have no idea how all the breeders in Vic with 'talkative' breeds cope. No you can show it if you have jumped through all of the hoops. But even if you try to dodge it and cut across a border where regs are not as tough - if the dog has ever lived in Victoria before the op you cant show it.

Well then push for reform for the code to make the distinction between hobby and business breeders. I don't think you have been reading my posts if you think my "only argument for a dog being confined in pens on concrete is because its easier for cleaning " What do you have to say about enrichment? Or do you think the real issue is about concrete? If its O.K. with you Id like to discuss enrichment at another time because so far its barely touched on in any code or proposal. Before I can dO exactly what you advise and push for law reform for the codes to make a distinction between a hobby and a business breeder we need to clarify the difference - don't we? Therefore asking what people think defines a puppy farmer would be the first step - wouldn't it?

I don't see codes as encouragement to do anything. I see them as minimum basic requirements. Enrichment should feature more strongly in those codes. I am not interested in what a dog's environment resembles and the fluffy feelings that go with the idea of lovely puppies gambolling around the daisies in the garden. I am interested in dogs being safe and disease free. I am interested in their minds and bodies being stimulated in an appropriate way. You water down hygiene laws and what you will get is properties featuring mud, chicken wire and weeds, and a whole lot of filthy dogs. If there is no requirement to provide minimum welfare requirements, there are people that will jump at the chance of rigging up some more runs without having to spend tens of thousands on concrete and drainage, and throwing some more dogs in them. If you want to talk about a Code of Practice especially set up for little hobby breeders, you go right ahead. Don't put it under the title of "What is a puppy Farmer?" But the commercial reality is that we do have large dog farms to meet market demand, and I think it is inappropriate for the laws governing those businesses to be changed, because of an anthorpomorphic notion that dogs don't like concrete floors or living behind wire. Greytmate. Im not sure why you have taken on such a tone in your replies to me and I'm not interested in setting up a code for hobby breeders - Ive already done that. Im interested in getting feedback and opinions and stimulating discussion on some issues relating to various proposals which have been put in play by the RSPCA within their puppy farmer policy paper and current state codes of practice. Given the choice dogs wouldn't live on concrete floors by choice and I dont think its healthy for them and that has nothing whatever to do with anthorpomorphic values. I cant think of any animal who would flourish and have a good quality of life living on concrete floors.Concrete floors which are not cleaned properly have just as many if not more potential health issues especially if they never see sunlight as any surface. You seem to miss the point within these current proposals and state codes there is no distinction between a hobby breeder and a large scale commercial breeder and if your only argument for a dog being confined in pens on concrete is because its easier for cleaning then all of the arguments against caged birds and intensive piggeries would never have begun.

In the preface of the NSW code for breeding dogs and cats" This code contains both standards and guidelines for the care of dogs or cats fro breeding.The standards have legal effect in 3 ways. Failure to meet a standard may result in a penalty infringement notice or a prosecution under clause 20 of the Prevention of cruety to animals act 1979. the owner or the designated carer of the animal is legally responsible for meeting the standards of this code. Page 2 - This code comprises both enforceable provisions and guidelines. The enforceable provisions are identified by the word standards. Mandatory codes of practice means they are compulsory.

Without emotion - A business owner who breeds dogs on a commercial scale with the sole aim of making profit. Anything else is just describing the methods they use. What is a commercial scale?

Well there is in that local councils often don't enforce kennel regs if it is obvious that all dogs live in the house. We were given our permit without building any of the structures the permit required us to. If the dogs don't live in the house, they are entitled to have a clean, dry, secure place to sleep. Sorry Steve, I am not a fan of people that breed dogs on dirt. It is unhygenic. There was a breeder here who bred in her normal backyard, the pups got parvo, and next year she bred another litter straight into that yard and came in here wondering why her puppies were so sick. I wouldn't have an aviary on dirt and I wouldn't have baby pups on dirt either. Good kennel management means having a secure hygienic enclosure for every dog. While the dog can be allowed to free-range for exercise, the proper facilities should be there. Do you vaccinate all your dogs for lepto? Does every breeder? What would you do exactly if you got lepto on your property and you hadn't provided dry enclosures for the dogs? I can't see Code of Practice relating to hygiene being watered down, and I would hate to see that happen. Proper kennels are most suitable and comfortable for most dogs. Dogs live in kennels, cows live in paddocks. And the construction of the kennel floor has nothing to do with the real issue, which is the enrichment. Im not saying anyone should necessarily breed dogs on dirt. Im saying that the way the codes are written it encourages people who breed dogs to keep them in concreted pens all of their lives and as a breeder I would prefer to have my dogs which I have for breeding living in an environment which more likely resembles a back yard. Every breeder who had a huge breeding establishment where lepto maybe a threat would be a moron if they could vaccinate for something and didnt. I would never have anything on my property and not have dry enclosures. I dont agree with you proper kennels are not -in my opinion- MOST suitable and most comfortable for most dogs. Its obvious that within this discussion you and I are coming from a different start place as far as how breeding dogs are managed by breeders who care whats best for the dogs over all else.

In 50 words or less what constitutes a responsible pet owner.

Where do your breeding dogs sleep When they are not raising puppies?

When you had your last litter where was it whelped and where did the pups live for the first 3 weeks ? I need you to describe the environment your pups lived in during whelping and for the first 21 days. If you're worried about making this public Id appreciate you telling me privately [email protected]

At our Monash visit Kate told us that her puppies did get cuddles, training, comfort, vet care [she is a vet] , grooming, socialising, health testing. no over breeding, no cross breeding, she complained about a push for keeping them in pens with concrete floors in laws and codes of conduct , they have an adequate diet, adequate bedding,adequate care overall. She is 100% with no shadow of a doubt a puppy farmer and freely admits this.So the fact is that a puppy farmer can cover all of these things. There are many things in there that cant be measured and Ive known people who only have the occasional litter who don't cover all of the bases anyway. Lets take a step back a minute. Jaxx's buddy used the term free range dogs and personally that's what I would think is a preferable way for a dog to live over being on concrete. Not because its easier to clean but because its better for the dog. Are caged bird farms easier to keep clean than free range? I would think so. So should we force people who breed puppies to do what people who don't breed puppies think will be better for cleaning purposes? My assumption is that someone who's livelihood is relying on sales for puppies has things which are within a breeder's control like worms, parvo and coccidia etc under control so why force them to keep their dogs as if they are in a pound or shelter? The risk for lepto or parvo is limited because they would all be vaccinated and isolated from outside bugs.Lets remember a dog is only in a whelping environment for a few weeks each year.I just think writing the codes of conduct the way they do is making everyone think this is how it should be done,giving them no room to provide a more natural living condition and Im not convinced it should be just given a tick and we move on. A really big issue is that codes for breeding are designed for everyone involved in the activity of breeding dogs and cats and so there is no consideration between someone who breeds one litter a year and someone who breeds 100. My argument is that these codes are coming together from people who don't breed dogs - their point of reference is from pounds, shelters and boarding kennels and thats not necessarily in breeding dog's best interests. Im going to double check some of this in the breeders forum too.

Yes I know the yards in the photo have no shelter but what if they did? I would prefer to see my dogs living with grass to run on than only concrete. Why do puppies need hard floors? Why do all dogs need a sleeping area with a concrete floor?

Yes please.

O.K. If we are going to have dogs housed intensively its easier to keep them clean if they have concrete floors but what if someone has dogs and they can provide large areas for them to live in with grassed areas ? Is replicating a backyard situation for a couple of dogs at a time preferable to having them all in one shed in individual pens on concrete?

Lets have a look at what we cant do anything about. We cant stop people breeding un registered purebred dogs or cross bred dogs. We cant stop them from selling them wherever they want to whom they want for how much they want. We cant restrict them on how many they own or how many they produce. We cant stop them from bumping off the ones they don't want anymore.

You did pretty well.

Part of the issue for me is that all of their ideas and codes seem to come from what is best practice for boarding kennels. You know places where dogs stay for short periods but surely dogs who are there for ever need different environmental conditions to remain healthy? I would have thought that a dog would need the appropriate enrichment regardless of whether it was boarded for a month or for five years. I can't really think what the difference would be. A dog doesn't know whether it is leaving the kennel that day or next year. Is there an example you can give of a condition that would suit a short term dog but not a longer term dog? At what length of time do we say the dog is being kennelled long term and its needs are now different? I have a hard time believing that having a dog on concrete for extended periods of time in penned areas and never being on dirt is a good thing for the dog.

No idea if that exists however, I have spoken with 4 different vets who specialise in canine reproduction, I have knowledge of another in Brisbane who is preparing a paper on it and Dr Hutchison a canine reproduction specialist in the states who feel there is no benefit to a bitch to not breed her on every season if she is in good condition. Personally Id love to see studies on this but who is going to do them? None of us can as its against our codes of conduct. The scientific fact is that whether a bitch is pregnant or not she secretes the same hormones. In a pregnancy the hormones released which cause the whelping and subsequernt rearing of the pups counteract the hormones battering her uterus. If you hold her off before you mate her she is more likely to have fertility issues. This is what Hutchison had to say http://www.doghobbyist.com/CanineRepro.html I agree with merijigs. Nothing on that link you posted says anything about breeding every season. There are people in Australia breeding their bitches every season, and I would have thought that there would be a lot more than hormones battering a bitch's uterus with that level of intensive breeding. From what I have seen, bitches that have been bred from too often tend not to last as long as other bitches. No studies done, just looking at the poor old things. But I guess the high number of puppies produced by them proves their fertility is better than that of bitches not so intensively bred? Welfare is the utmost concern to me. Fertility is a lower priority. I disagree with those that prioritise fertility over welfare. I agree with you that the people I know who have bred bitches every season would have to admit that they have less longevity than other bitches however, Id also say they are the type of peopel who havent givien a damn about the welfare of the bitch as well. The point is that until there are real studies done with all things equal no one can say for sure one way or the other. There's fair argumant to say it should be something the breeder should be able to make a decision on but we all know all breeders are not equal.

Part of the issue for me is that all of their ideas and codes seem to come from what is best practice for boarding kennels. You know places where dogs stay for short periods but surely dogs who are there for ever need different environmental conditions to remain healthy?