Steve

Well, yeah. But its no conscious plan. Its an acceptance of negative rather than positive value systems. Not looking to how we can ADD value for a friendlier environment, but finding fault in the environment instead, and rejecting it. We can all feel so moraly superior that way. Whoopeee! Who wouldn't jump at that chance? (till its their turn) I promise you it is not only a conscious plan by those working it and has been strategically thought out and pulling together to reach their goal. This will eventually see radical legislation to stop it. Educate the public lessen the demand so when you do implement legislation there is barely a whimper. No one can say there hasn't been enough warning given and if the only defence is that its someone else that is a road to disaster. Feeling morally superior might motivate some and there are some nutters who will take it on as a war but as a society we no longer tolerate cruelty and those among us who simply dont want to see dogs suffer due to the selection of their parents will push for a positive outcome even if that means the breed's extinction.

So just based on the general reaction to the news story even here on a purebred dog forum looks like they are going to have an easy job of BSL for welfare reasons doesn't it? Step by step following the plan.

Give it a minute they will pick it up - you will start to see it everywhere.

Fact is in Victoria one breed of cat is not able to be bred - The Scottish Fold or more to the point cats with that type of ear. Doesn't matter who breeds them its an offence under cruelty laws. The legislation in that state is already in place and they only have to put a tick in a box to ban some more physical features or add diseases .The only thing stopping them so far is that these breeds are so popular and the public aren't yelling loudly enough yet to have it stopped. Once it reaches the point that tail docking did or puppy farming in the public arena its going to be very hard if not impossible to stop. If all the CCs are going to base their argument omn is "its not us" - no hope.

That's the story but the truth is as plain as the nose on their dogs faces. Yeah I know How very dare I.

Yes I know this and for me breeding dogs which are destined to have less quality of life due to the way they are being selected is more cruel than keeping their Mum's in dirty conditions. This is why we have developed new breeding strategies to have breeders register their puppies with the MDBA - as much as this isn't a popular thing to say especially on Dogz fact is pedigree breeders don't get out of it that easy. The more they say "its not us - its only the back yarders " the bigger the shame. Sooner or later the general public will see they have become desensitised to the suffering that goes on and that call it what it is - cruelty . If they dont clean it up [ and they wont ] sooner or later it will have to be taken out of their hands. I have no doubt that it will hit us every where we look in a concerted effort to instigate change by welfare and vet groups.

hard to beat when you see the material they are working with - their premise is that ALL dogs with brachy heads have at least some form of brachy head syndrome.

Yep but the intention is to steer the public away from them regardless of who is breeding them . Whilst they are popular they cant ban them being bred so the theory is educate the public first .

You can expect to see a huge media hit of this topic with the full swing aiming at educating the public away from these Breeds.

Me too LDH all over again.

O.K. I thought it was about Mrs Rustybuckets post.

In these sort of cases the problem is mainly about the blood poisoning which really is something that makes them very very sick. Antibiotics should eventually kick in enough to shift the infection but if she is still vomiting thats not good as there is also a concern regarding dehydration. The only thing I have to offer is that it may be possible for you to bring her home and continue her treatment rather than pay the extra hospital expenses. You may need the vet to teach you how to give an injection [ antibiotics,anti vomit, and pain ] as she is vomiting and wont keep them in orally yet and its a pretty simple thing to learn how to give fluids under the skin as well to keep her hydrated. Have a chat to the vet as this may be a viable way to bring the costs down and still ensure she is getting what she needs. It is true that there are potential side effects of desexing but over all in my opinion better to risk these than keep an entire bitch unless she is intended for breeding. I have known of one girl which developed hemangiosarcoma but I have known of many more which had mammary cancer and or Pyro.

No - One got sick several weeks after it went home and it wasnt Parvo You don't have to be a puppy farmer to have a bad experience with parvo. It can happen to any breeder. But I can see how it's more prevalent and easier spread in high volume puppy farms where pups are probably less closely monitored and less likely to see a vet at the first sign of being off colour. Maybe though when you know enough about maternal antibodies and vaccination failure of young pups etc there may be an argument to that - but no puppies sold by that particular person developed Parvo. If a breeder does sell a pup that develops Parvo on the way home or soon after they get home that is no indication the breeder has done anything wrong.

If she had a booster after she was 12 months old then her current anti bodies should be sufficient to protect the pups until they get their vaccinations.If she were not pregnant would you be so worried about her getting Parvo ? There is no reason why you should be more worried about her contracting it because she is pregnant than you would have been if she were not and Where the greatest danger is seen is when the mothers antibodies are High and last longer than the vaccination date - so you see puppies after they have had a vaccination at 6 or 7 weeks which develop parvo because the anti body has still been high and knocked the injection out. Approx 28% of vaccinated puppies still get parvo and 40% of puppies that die after they are infected are already vaccinated. Parvo is everywhere - dont think that because you live in the boonies and you have never seen it that you are protected .The virus is so small it can be transported by the obvious, tyres, shoes clothing etc but it can also arrive via wind and rain . Foxes and dingoes get parvo too. So you can give a killed vaccine - parvac - to your girl and it supposedly wont hurt the developing puppies or the bitch but it does cause a high spike in antibodies which is exactly what will create a bigger problem for you with trying to ensure vaccination of your puppies will be done at the right time to protect them. If this were my dog I would relax and do nothing.

No - One got sick several weeks after it went home and it wasnt Parvo You don't have to be a puppy farmer to have a bad experience with parvo. It can happen to any breeder.

Its not just poor sportsmanship its just plain bad manners. I understand people being upset because they don't win and even going home and having a quiet spit about it to their family but to actually do this type of thing is disgusting and all it does is make them be seen for who they are. Sadly the dog world has more than its fair share of bullies and bad mannered losers,

No.

If you buy a puppy from a NSW breeder its very unlikely that it will come with papers. A breeder is not able to register the pup in NSW until it is microchipped which most breeders don't do until just before the pup goes home. The papers are sent to the breeder and are in the breeders name and when the breeder gets them they have to post them onto the buyer .I spoke with a NSW breeder yesterday who told me she has been waiting 6 weeks for her papers to come back after registering them . Some breeders wait until all puppies have gone home before putting the registrations through too. I no longer have a situation where the puppy buyer can name their own puppy .Ive bred a lot of puppies over the last 40 years and often the name is already taken or the chosen name is often too close to someone else's prefix so its knocked back . You have to register the whole litter on line at one time There is no way you can stop everything and go back to half a dozen people to check that the name you have chosen instead of the one they want is O.K. so now I use a theme and the new owners have no say. A couple of litters ago I had to change the name the new owner wanted because it was too close to another prefix which Ive had to do often before and the new owners have understood but this owner went nuts about it and accused me of deliberately making a fool of her because the dog had been given what she felt was a horrible name and it took all my skills to defuse the situation and make her see I hadnt named the puppy to have a go at her . She got it [i think] but she is still mad about the name not being the one she wanted.

If its coming form interstate there is no point in checking what Happens with Vicdogs. It depends on what state you are buying the pup from and the individual breeders usual system. Best to ask the breeder.

Ive read it MM I just dont get it and think its pointless to get involved in public conversation with people who are too smart for me to understand.

So the answer is - this forum is too hard for me. Im out

Exactly What rule is it that you are talking about ?

Yep and none of it - not a whisker based on what is best for the bitch or which has any semblance of science or respect for the breeder What a cluge! Looks like no science and a whole lot of politics. LGD breedes in both 12 and 24 mo categories . . . Lab 18 mo, Chess and various larger setters, 12 mo; afghan 12 mo, saluki 24 mo.

Umm, Thats what I have been saying? Promote values , not fault? This isn't about apportioning blame. Its about trying to find answers and where things went wrong. You have remarked yourself that a constitution only does what is written into it. Steven Hawkings touched on this subject in his series. We are talking cultural evolution and the 'programing' of a culture to find fault in what lies out side its own jurisdiction. Having to constantly redefine what that jurisdiction does include, in pursuit of being 'Other'. Making it very difficult to fight differently in co-operation with all stake holders. If that's what you have been saying you sure have chosen a very unique way of saying it and if you cant do it without carry on about the bad KCs then don't expect to keep your audience. Where things went wrong and is wrong is about a political system which takes on a what if concept and makes laws which are designed to gather votes the cheapest and easiest way possible for them over all else Including science and commonsense. One person allows their dogs to be a danger to the community so laws are introduced in case others do. Its is about giving more credibility to nutters and radicals that push everyone to have to defend their own position and show they are not the bad guys. Yes we are talking about cultural revolution and the need and desire for those within a culture to have to defend themselves and demonstrate that they are not part of what is being used to to have the will of the minority promoted but this is driven by the media, the ease in which information is now disseminated,the political system and the lack of desire of the community to take up a stance against things that don't directly affect them and protest and of course the ability for warriors to gather their armies which drive the actions taken and have the community exposed to their propoganda. reality is that the world is being changed by a bunch of bullies who know how to play the game and have greater motivation and resources to gather support and shout the loudest. Oh for Dog sake, MY breed is in serious trouble. Along with many others. It depends on the K.Cs getting this right and I want to see that happen. If discussing the problems these breeds are facing and how a rule change could impact on that, favorably, is seen as an attack doesn't that help show how this rule is affecting the culture? That our SHARED values aren't being recognized ? I have gone out of my way to say the system itself is a brilliant innovation that should be working better than it is. I would far rather see an existing and established body become as successful as it can be, Than start promoting yet another divisive ideal. O.K. If tomorrow the KCS simply changed what you think are their rules which you believe impact on this how do you see that helping YOUR breed. Can you tell me in ordinary dog owner/ dog breeder speak how you think it all depends on the KCS getting it right? Success is measured subjectively - any group or body measures its success according to how they are achieving their goals - why would the KCs want to use their resources and measure their success by other ideals? As you can see by this thread alone people who are members of their states KC are happy with the fact that so far the KCs have been able to protect them and their breeds and for them the KCs are getting it right .Your ideas may have some credence - though Im still struggling to get a grasp of exactly what you see but surely you can see that constantly debating this point is not going to take you or anyone else anywhere and even if they did fall in with what you want dogs of a certain type will still be legislated against because its about politics and dog owner responsibility.

Umm, Thats what I have been saying? Promote values , not fault? This isn't about apportioning blame. Its about trying to find answers and where things went wrong. You have remarked yourself that a constitution only does what is written into it. Steven Hawkings touched on this subject in his series. We are talking cultural evolution and the 'programing' of a culture to find fault in what lies out side its own jurisdiction. Having to constantly redefine what that jurisdiction does include, in pursuit of being 'Other'. Making it very difficult to fight differently in co-operation with all stake holders. If that's what you have been saying you sure have chosen a very unique way of saying it and if you cant do it without carry on about the bad KCs then don't expect to keep your audience. Where things went wrong and is wrong is about a political system which takes on a what if concept and makes laws which are designed to gather votes the cheapest and easiest way possible for them over all else Including science and commonsense. One person allows their dogs to be a danger to the community so laws are introduced in case others do. Its is about giving more credibility to nutters and radicals that push everyone to have to defend their own position and show they are not the bad guys. Yes we are talking about cultural evolution and the need and desire for those within a culture to have to defend themselves and demonstrate that they are not part of what is being used to to have the will of the minority promoted, but this is driven by the media, the ease in which information is now disseminated,the political system and the lack of desire of the community to take up a stance against things that don't directly affect them, protest and of course the ability for warriors to gather their armies which drive the actions taken and have the community exposed to their propoganda. Reality is that the world is being changed by a bunch of bullies who know how to play the game and have greater motivation and resources to gather support and shout the loudest. To suggest that this is about the KCs ruling where dogs which are not registered by them are excluded from their gene pools is rubbish. To suggest that this group of people will continue to help fight BSL when part of the strategy to date is to demonstrate that the breed [pitbull] is the same as one of their breeds except the paperwork and to denounce the KCs is craziness and demonstrates the need for those fighting it to get a grip of how they have chased their allies off.