Steve

This isnt about gambling its about how the loud part of the community now see what has been seen within the industry as normal,not cruel and perfectly acceptable as being part of what they do as the norm as abhorrent. Now its no longer politically correct to dare say 'so what' and they get how because others are judging them harshly enough to impact on the politicians and shut them down - they will stop using live lures and try to cut PTS rates.

No, It doesn't. So we are left with no other choices in our response. I wouldn't call them 'ideals' Its how things work. See Richard Dawkins( evolutionary Biologist) on Faith. 'Beliefs' are fine until you accept them as truths and refuse to any challenge to them, yet act on them as truth and ask every one else to do the same. Only hes talking religious faith and human generations/ environment. Here we are talking of a biological 'belief' and its effects on dogs and their environment. Much shorter generations and much faster effect. A belief in the pedigree system is beneficial. It ceases to be beneficial when it demands breeding outside a pedigree system ISN"T beneficial and there is no value to be had out side its own systems. Its not about the pedigree system its about what groups of people within an industry - any industry see as cruel when it doesn't match up with those who think otherwise. All of those activities such as fox hunting, pig hunting, rabbit hunting, etc have dogs chasing live bait - why would those involved in these activities be eager to stop people doing what it is they all see as normal and not cruel Its about changing views within the community,some win some dont depends how loud those outside of the industry shout - its about treatment of animals far far removed from a pedigree. I have NEVER said its about the pedigree. Its not about your belief in a pedigree, which is beneficial. Its about a disbelief in any other values. So why is the pedigree system or inside outside a pedigree system even mentioned?

No, It doesn't. So we are left with no other choices in our response. I wouldn't call them 'ideals' Its how things work. See Richard Dawkins( evolutionary Biologist) on Faith. 'Beliefs' are fine until you accept them as truths and refuse to any challenge to them, yet act on them as truth and ask every one else to do the same. Only hes talking religious faith and human generations/ environment. Here we are talking of a biological 'belief' and its effects on dogs and their environment. Much shorter generations and much faster effect. A belief in the pedigree system is beneficial. It ceases to be beneficial when it demands breeding outside a pedigree system ISN"T beneficial and there is no value to be had out side its own systems. Its not about the pedigree system its about what groups of people within an industry - any industry see as cruel when it doesn't match up with those who think otherwise. All of those activities such as fox hunting, pig hunting, rabbit hunting, etc have dogs chasing live bait - why would those involved in these activities be eager to stop people doing what it is they all see as normal and not cruel Its about changing views within the community,some win some dont depends how loud those outside of the industry shout - its about treatment of animals far far removed from a pedigree.

I would argue that they cant deal with what the community comes to see as cruelty because they cant see that what they do is cruel not because they wont police it but because they cant see that the same things they see as needing to be policed and dealt with are the same as what the community places a priority on. The grey people at the top of the admin tree were very good at identification and record keeping making sure their members picked up poo and whole bunch of other stuff but couldnt see that breeding huge amounts that were killed or allowing them to chase live lures was anything to write home about and that it was something they needed to be seen to take action on its the same in the purebred dog world. They simply dont get it and they will shrug it off because they will defend what they do as they truly dont see breeding dogs which suffer due to an extreme conformation is a something they need to take different action on that the community will consider acceptable. After all its not them - its the other guys.

There is another point here - the people involved in greyhound racing had no choice but to be members of one organisation - not just to race but also to own train and breed them .All dogs involved had to be under their breeding and recording system to be able to be involved.The good guys have no choice but to swim in the same pond . When a few are sprung and shown to be doing horrible things everyone in the group is judged as the pond scum and the entire group population and their dogs are punished. Cant see any difference in this and the ANKC and if enough get busted for what the community feels is cruelty - bingo. Worse there are so many beating their chests telling everyone they are better than the rest that they completely miss what it is that the community is judging them on. The community is judging them on things they do which are being sensationalised as being cruel which they are told is produced by the showring but those who are showing and those who make their money out of the showring think they are untouchable and superior and cant see it coming. The Ccs are caught up with the whole dont let our breeders look like puppy farmers and completely ignore what will have the potential to do what has been done here. Just as those grey trainers didnt see that what they did was cruel some purebred breeders cant see that by breeding dogs which the community is being told suffer their whole lives due to the selection for the show ring standard that they are closer to being seen as the cruel industry that selects dogs with physical features that make them suffer. They introduce prefix exams, waiting periods,ownership of a purebred dog and being a member for over a year before they can apply to breed, push those already there for breeding less litters no close breeding no matter what the reason, limiting the gene pools with limited register and less litters, inspect to see they are picking up poo keeping their records in order etc just as the grey people did but cant see what it is they will be judge on because they see nothing wrong with it.

It isn't a donation request though, it is just a yellow pages listing? They aren't asking for money listing themselves as a local business, they are simply listing their pet search service as available to those in this area - which is a very good thing for rescue pets in my opinion. Yes I get all that but just because in your opinion or my opinion its a very good thing doesnt mean I cant see why there is some spitting going on because for some the ends doesn't justify the means and I understand that and feel they have a right to feel some things feel a bit deceptive.

Im not saying there is anything wrong with it but when the top of the page says showing listings for local services only I would expect that most people would think they were supporting someone who was actually located in their local area Its no big deal but I can see why the angst is out there with private rescue about this and other marketing tricks they use.

Ill bite what does mobile service in area mean - might clearly say it but thats as clear as mud to me.where I come form all it means is that you can use your mobile phone in that town. Maybe it's not as universal as I think, but to me that means it is a 'mobile' business I.e it services many areas even though it may not have a shop front right there. Maybe but Ive never heard of it used that way. Im not kicking them all's fair but I can see why some feel that some of what they do is bending the facts a bit - but seriously Alfred town would be one of the smallest towns in NSW and according to the ASIC register they don't operate in NSW

Ill bite what does mobile service in area mean - might clearly say it but thats as clear as mud to me.where I come form all it means is that you can use your mobile phone in that town.

Do they have an actual office there or something? No one has an office there - in fact you would be going to find more than a couple of houses

Not sure that helps because around here vets dont belong to the AVA

Better go and look at the figures the - ANKC is very much a minority group in fact in 2015 only 79 breeders in australia who were registered with the ANKC had 10 litters and defining the wrong - this is the tricky bit . Some people don't see any wrong in dogs being humanely PTS if they don't work or run fast enough - some call it wastage and animal cruelty but others call it life. There is nothing in the animal cruelty laws which defines culling dogs which don't cut the grade humanely a criminal or even a cruel act. Some people think killing a dog for any reason unacceptable - look at the thread re rescue dogs who are aggressive .So its O.K. to kill a dog because it has a temperament that doesn't fit requirements for quick and easy placement in a family but not O.K. to kill a dog that doesn't fit requirements for winning races or herding sheep and cant be quickly and appropriately rehomed? How do you expect that they the ANKC will act against those doing the wrong thing by ever growing community standards when they encourage it and actually have regs which govern maintaining. I can just see them going after a pug breeder and throwing them out because they have bred dogs with breathing problems. So in all seriousness what do you see as things which are wrong or some of their members are doing wrong that they should be acting against - that there is a reasonable expectation that they would act against?

I haven't noticed this around here. There's just the same ones that have always been here, tho a couple have joined franchises. I have noticed that there are quite a few vets without enough work, and loads can't afford to set up practice on their own. O.K. Might be a geographical thing I guess but we could definitely use another vet around this part of the world

I have to admit that this is something that ticked me off a bit Listed in the Wagga Wagga local phone book as if its location at Alfredtown - an outer suburb of Wagga which has a pub and a shop and nothing else That's a long long call from WA and it would take from local rescue contacts - Its probably just smart but sort of feels odd to me. My link

Its hard to see when there seems to be heaps more vet clinics now than there was just a few years ago.

I think they might have to start enforcing their own rules if various governments are just going to wave a magic wand and shut down an entire industry because some are treating animals badly. Just look at all the puppy farms... I'm sure the RSPCA would shut more down if they could prove there was a problem and when they did there were sufficient sanctions to stop repeat offences. There's a double whammy - proving what looks obvious to us - isn't so easy with the current law, and when they do successfully prosecute the most appalling cases - the offenders get slapped with a tiny fine as if animal cruelty doesn't matter. NSW and other governments are using the wrong fix for the wrong problem - similar to BSL applied in Victoria - not dealing with the source of the problem or preventing dog bites etc. Will end up like Italy with 95 different dog breeds banned or declared dangerous? It is no longer the job of the government to fix the problem. It is the job of industry to fix it. Government has been extricating itself from regulatory roles for quite some time now, none of this should be a surprise. If an industry cannot show it self able to self regulate it is not considered a viable indsutry any more. Correct so if an organisation simply doesn't see that they are not only not seeing it but encouraging the breeding of dogs with less quality of life than they should when the rest of the world says you cannot do this on your own - you have had years to fix this etc so here we come we shouldnt be surprised .Yet we puff up our chests and tell the world we are better. Mark my words do something about it or it will come.

I think they might have to start enforcing their own rules if various governments are just going to wave a magic wand and shut down an entire industry because some are treating animals badly. Just look at all the puppy farms... I'm sure the RSPCA would shut more down if they could prove there was a problem and when they did there were sufficient sanctions to stop repeat offences. There's a double whammy - proving what looks obvious to us - isn't so easy with the current law, and when they do successfully prosecute the most appalling cases - the offenders get slapped with a tiny fine as if animal cruelty doesn't matter. NSW and other governments are using the wrong fix for the wrong problem - similar to BSL applied in Victoria - not dealing with the source of the problem or preventing dog bites etc. Will end up like Italy with 95 different dog breeds banned or declared dangerous? Over and over again I say this - in NSW the ANKC breeders and any other person who breeds a litter of puppies have the same standards. Dogs NSW do not have higher requirements on their breeders than the state codes - the ONLY things that are in their codes which are not in the state codes is the requirements to register dogs and criteria for registration on their registry. In Victoria Vicdogs members do have different requirements but they are way less for Vicdogs breeders with less accountability for how they keep and manage their dogs who say they own less than 10 fertile dogs. In every other state other than Victoria in fact in every other place in the world ALL breeders have to do what is required by any person breeding dogs. All breeders have the same accountability to the council and RSPCA etc except in Victoria where these breeders have an exemption from complying with codes for breeding dogs. The VICdogs codes go no where near the crap that's in the codes. For me I believe that the exemptions afforded Vicdogs members who have less than 10 fertile dogs in Victoria are akin to the type of self regulation the greyhound industry has had and its a disaster waiting to happen. Just recently we have seen two registered breeders in the spot light . This is why the MDBA will not at least until things change apply for exemptions for our members in Victoria. However. I think the point is being missed .This shamozzle with the greys isnt about whether people have complied with codes and ethics - its about the welfare - the perceived cruelty involved in how they are trained and the high kill rate - if there is ever going to be a stop on purebred breeders its going to be on welfare not codes and ethics notably the show ring and the breeding of dogs with conformational features that make them suffer and interfere with their quality of life. If that happens and I cant see how it wont happen the same things will be said - they have had years to show improvement in these breeds blah blah blah. Throwing a breeder out because they breached the code of ethics means nothing to whether someone can still breed dogs or as to whether they do a great job - all it shows is that they put in the wrong paperwork or used the wrong dog etc according to the registry criteria.

I dont believe it will get through parliament anyway. Lots of National MPs and now the Labor leader are standing against it .

can you expand on this casowner ?

That is a very strange summation, Steve :) . Remember the old saying, "Can't see the woods for the trees." Have you ever been there to see for yourself? It wouldn't matter whether I had been there or not what people think they see and know doesn't make it how it is. Ive been around long enough to know the assumptions people make and the judgements arent always equal to reality I still think that based on the situation they are better able to make decisions for each dog that suits their policies than anyone else including those who have been there.

Ive just had a conversation with a local working dog breeder - his dogs are well known and around here he can pull up to 30.000 for them. He shoots most of every litter .The difference is no one knows how many he breeds or how many he culls- begs the question - how many dogs of other breeds get PTS and we already know there are tons of working dogs ending up in rescue.

Dont you just love that its all focused on management rather than welfare even from the Animal welfare league. The microchipping is long overdue but we are still locked into the same old same old where the bleating for desexing is tied to less animals in pounds and less puppy farmers when exactly the opposite has proven to be the case in places where mandatory desexing is in. public education! Biased public education pointed at their idea of how dogs and cats are best managed for the councils - Its got me buggered why dog owners just lay down and have their right to decide what THEY think is best for their dogs taken off them. Their ramblings about how breeders being registered will work is just more of the crap. As if someone who is really puppy farming is going to walk in and get registered. Stop press news NSW has had mandatory microchipping snce 1995 and still tons of breeders dont chip and less will chip since new laws come in for NSW this week

People kick and scream if rescue determines a dog is not suitable for rehoming or even that one dog would take up too many resources better directed at dozens of dogs rather than one and over look it for their rescue group or PTS when it becomes obvious. There is a very large section of the "rescue' world that believe everything with a heart beat should be saved and if resources are spent that could go to other places that's O.K. as long as their no kill policy is adhered to' The fact that this group has hung in so long and stuck to their no kill policy means that they are more likely to be given donations and seen to be the good guys by many. There is also another side to this - if I choose to donate to a rescue group because I like its policy of no kill and I like the idea that they havent given up , that I agree if its alive it deserves to be safe then Im going to get ticked off if after they take my money they change their policy and make exceptions. Unless there is some cruelty issue and being in a pen most of the dog's life isn't counted automatically as cruelty at law then one group who believe its better for the dog to be treated differently simply don't get to call the shots or change things because they dont agree. I wouldnt donate to them or help them because I dont agree with their policies just as I wouldnt donate to some others for a variety of reasons but seriously they have taken donations BECAUSE OF HOW THEY WORK AND THEIR PHILOSOPHIES and they do have supporters who agree with them - just because some others don't beating them up. Just takes rescue in NSW closer to being slugged with laws and new codes.

Doesn't matter really whether we agree on whether there is a link. Im not prepared to take it much further here or knock myself out debating why I think this - like you Ive done it to death and this forum isnt what it used to be. The welfare of the dogs has been the major focus on the argument for justifying why this has happened with greyhounds and I believe that if it is possible to wipe an entire industry out in this manner - based on welfare of the animals,them being warned and given time to take action and being perceived to have made no improvement - even though it has money and huge support behind it - that purebred breeders better start to consider harder their risk factors.

I normally agree with you but I don't in this case re brachy or any other BSL issue being linked to this decision. The ban here is for greyhound racing, not breeding. The racing of dogs and breeding of dogs are different issues. As for it being on 'the' agenda? Whose agenda is that exactly? I do agree that the Bill may not get through, however. I'd says it's got good odds for passing but who knows. There is a current campaign which is growing momentum aimed at shutting down the breeding of brachy head dogs .I know this because of various correspondence , meetings Ive had with those involved and submissions we have provided plus various recent media etc. The aim/strategy is firstly to educate the public attempting to sensitising them to the health conditions associated with brachy heads. They are aware that simply banning the breeding of them as they have done with scottish fold cats would be difficult now due to the lack of public knowledge and the high ownership of them. According to statements Ive heard from Baird the BREEDING of greyhounds will be banned as part of their banning of racing. Its the over breeding of them that is at issue because it causes so many to be discarded. Clearly there is a difference between racing them and owning them but they could say the KCs have had years to get their act together and ensure dogs were not suffering due to their conformation if they want to get to that and I believe they will in years to come. Previous conversations on this is here My link and here My link and here with Vicdogs response here My link Happy to send you the discussion papers and responses if you are interested.